How to deal with the thieves

[Jeroen Ottens]

Hi,

In the past months I have been fighting a company that is using my design of the Liebherr to sell a set of (most likely fake) LEGO. The tactic I used was to inform the webhosting company on which they host their site that they are violating their fair-use policy. That was reasonably successful, until they moved their site to a webhosting service that apparently doesn't care about their own fair-use policy, because they don't respond to my complaints.

On the one hand I have always believed that this would come one day given the difference in culture and disrespect for copyright that is present on some parts the internet/world. It sort of comes with the territory, so I vowed to myself that if that day would come I would just let it happen and wouldn't pick a fight.

But then when it actually happened I felt quite emotional about the whole thing. There are people that are knowingly (I did have some correspondonce with them in which they admit that I am indeed the copyright owner) using my hard work to earn a quick buck and that just makes me very angry. I just couldn't sit and let is pass. Predictably this fight proved to be futile so far.

So now comes my dilemma, I have a couple of projects in the pipeline that can be made available to the public since they are non-exclusive. Should I release them as PDF instructions and learn to accept that others will parasite on my work? Or should I stop releasing instructions and just release sets with paper instruction books (without partslists) to make it as hard as possible for the copycats to do the same.

Or is there a way to actually win the fight against these thieving companies without costing me (a lot of) valuable time?

I realize this is mostly an issue because of the position I am in and as such it may be a luxury problem I have. But I know some others have had their designs stolen by fake LEGO companies before, I'd be interested to hear how they dealt with this (emotionally). Also, if this is not the right forum for this discussion the mods can feel free to move this to a more appropriate forum.

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Jeroen Ottens

[Meatman]

It really sucks that this happens, but as I have seen in the past and heard from other builders, I doubt there is really anything that can be done about it.

I do have a question for those builders who design models based on real life vehicles. Is it actually legal for you to sell instructions of those vehicles and use their company names if you are not working with those companies or have their permission?

I remember Paul(crowkillers) saying that he had made his Porsche instructions free because of legal issues with the company. Perhaps he could off more insight into this.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Meatman

[M_longer]

I have seen some adds on Facebook and Instagram lately, I was going to PM you abot them.

22 minutes ago, Jeroen Ottens said:

Or is there a way to actually win the fight against these thieving companies without costing me (a lot of) valuable time?

There's no way, so far none of my models was used as a bootleg set, but who knows what they will come in the future :/

[1gor]

This situation really sucks , you are making wonderful MOC (Liebherr) and invest hundreds or even few thousand of hours and since there is no policeman on Internet we have risk of being victims of piracy ...

It is really something that pisses of everyone who respects someone's creativity, specially om your level.

Unfortunately you need whole "network" of people and lots of time to win a battle against thieves, but war is fortunately something else 

That is why I'm not doing building instructions, just showing some steps of development.

[Vectormatic]

Lego designs by their very nature are "open source", as in you can not distribute them without giving away the design in all its detail, and anyone remotely familiar with the platform can reproduce your design. This is Lego's strength, and is a big part of what drives the community.

On the other hand, especially now that the patents have expired, this is also a great weakness. Both for lego and for MOC designers.

From a practical point of view, there is no real way to fight this, unless you are a big company with huge amounts of money to send lawyers after the copycats, they will always win the battle, It took Lego yeeeeaars to get lepin shut down, there is no way some private person is going to be able to succesfully protect their copyright across the world in all sorts of countries with all sorts of laws etc..

 

If you treat MOC design as a business, the only real way to protect your efforts would be to only do exclusive commisions, and even the reverse engineering based on pictures will be a risk, it is just the nature of lego.

Otherwise, just sell your instructions, be happy with the few bucks you make of AFOLs who are willing to pay, and ignore the copycats, the people buying the copycat stuff would have never bought your stuff anyway, so despite that someone is making money from your work, they arent actually depriving you of any income

[Clawp]

(Sorry if my english is not as good as possible)

I have been on this forum for almost an year (first without an account, then decided that i want to post too). I have watched many mocs created by awesome, skilled people and loved the "presentations" provided by them on youtube.

My pleasure comes mostly from building and understanding the mechanism used by others in their mocs. I really love that some MOCs got instructions available (free or paid).

I recently started buying the instructions, even when i have found the moc instructions on sites like lepin or other "brands", because i wanted to support the MOC creator and pay my respect for their time.

People who really like your work and really wanna support you, are gonna find a way to do it (donations or paying for instructions).

The only noble reward you might get... is that someone is happy with your creation in their living room, based on your instructions :).

And as the others said... you might get some monetary value from the people that are really wanna support you. The rest will copy anyway.

 

But the "fighting agains the copycats" is never gonna end and is not gonna bring you any joy in killing the "respawnable" monster that is gonna do it all over again...

 

From what i saw on Aliexpress, mostly all of them give the instructions as "bonus" to a bulk of pieces.

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Clawp

[Lipko]

The worst thing can happen if we stop sharing instructions. Pretty much the sake of a community would gone and communities would become mere photo sharing communities.

[kbalage]

I know the feeling and it's really difficult to let it go. Had my own fight with a relatively small fish from Singapore who sells lots of MOCs in mixed Lego/Lepin packs and gives the (otherwise) paid instructions with them. First I was successful as he was stupid enough to use my photos so after some e-mails back and forth with the platform provider I managed to have my stuff taken down. But after a few months they are there again, now with some generic photos (I mostly do RC mods so he simply uses the set photos). I could give it a try again but honestly it's not worth it. Can't even contact the seller directly as the platform only accepts registration form the area.

Consider this - if LEGO with all the money and power they have is still one step behind of the copycat companies, what would be our chances? Next to nothing... I think there are still a few options, everyone can choose that fits the best:

- I think the best one - ignore it. Let it go, create/sell your instructions and only mind your own business. True fans won't buy fake stuff so focus on them.
- Stop making instructions. I think probably this is the worst as this means a great loss for the community considering your great designs and you'll still feel defeated.
- Find a platform to sell your designs in a complete package. So far (as far as I know) only MOCHUB does it and in the past few months they have some issues with delivery time so not a really viable option currently but still can be considered in the future.
- Try to sell a complete package yourself. It's a whole bunch of headache and logistics, but I know designers who are quite successful at it. Maybe an option only if you're doing this for a living.
- Get a deal with a company that creates sets based on non-Lego bricks. I know it's blasphemy for most of us but I saw well known designers going this way so who knows... 

[Toastie]

2 hours ago, Jeroen Ottens said:

I'd be interested to hear how they dealt with this (emotionally)

I don't know, but isn't this the core of @Jeroen Ottens question? Because he also said:

2 hours ago, Jeroen Ottens said:

I realize this is mostly an issue because of the position I am in and as such it may be a luxury problem I have.

When this is the case then all the "personal money issue" is (maybe) not that important for him(???).

As all this can't happen to me (I am nowhere close to the league you guys are playing in) - I can't really voice any relevant thoughts.

But maybe in my professional life I am coming close to the question and (personal) issue raised above. I do research - with SOE in a public institution - in an area where you can make a lot of money - provided you want: founding your own company, find some folks to work with you, get Angel money, attract more etc. etc. IP is core to the matter. A friend of mine made a fortune by following this path. I decided not to. I also decided the whole IP crap is nothing for me, the public, nor for a public university. We publish our results - when possible in open source journals. Freely available to everyone: Companies, undergrad students, who ever is interested. Sometimes companies pick up some "ideas" we have published - and make (a lot of) money. There is much more to it - you need to get the university's administration on board as well to go this route - which sucked even more - but: It worked. We publish openly - and that is it. 

And here is what my very personal - and emotional - way of looking at that is:

54 minutes ago, Lipko said:

The worst thing can happen if we stop sharing instructions. Pretty much the sake of a community would gone

All the best
Thorsten         

[Paul Boratko]

It's quite unfortunate that these things are still happening, but it's never going to stop... It took TLG years to take down Lepin, and most likely, they'll just pop up under another name at some point.. I remember years ago when someone sent me a link to a Chinese online marketplace and they were literally selling my instructions piggybacking right off of my own website.. I was angry at first, but finally accepted that this is just how things are going to be as there is just no way to win.. If I were you, I would just stay motivated and keep doing what you're doing.. Don't lose any sleep over it.. There will always be leeches looking to profit off of someone Else's talents..

5 hours ago, Meatman said:

I do have a question for those builders who design models based on real life vehicles. Is it actually legal for you to sell instructions of those vehicles and use their company names if you are not working with those companies or have their permission?

I remember Paul(crowkillers) saying that he had made his Porsche instructions free because of legal issues with the company. Perhaps he could off more insight into this.

This is a very sticky situation where I feel many AFOL have been quite fortunate by the original IP owners either being very lenient, ignorant, or in most cases, uninformed.. Selling anything based off of an existing IP and using their name without their consent for profit could land you in some hot water.. Personally, I would never again design a model based off of a real car and use that company's name and then sell instructions.. There is a reason why I just do generic models now if I plan on releasing instructions..

Edited May 11, 2019 by Paul Boratko

[iLego]

If you are getting agitated while fighting against them, then it's probably better to "let go".

I have a philosophical argument that can help you mentally disassociate more easily from this mess. We are all surviving on the shoulder of giants from the past who made great contributions. Some one discovered fire, someone invented agriculture, someone invented maths, physics etc. We are not paying IP to any of them. We are using it for free. And that has been the nature of civilization forever. So we should be greatful for what we have, and not bog our life down on petty issues 

That said, I think the right thing to do is to fight the injustice. But you should fight dispassionately. Don't get agitated, frustrated, or annoyed. Just be patient and persistent. Fight within your time budget.

I believe most people in their heart know what is right and what is wrong. So even a small protest impinges on their conscience. They will loose sleep ever so slightly, and perhaps one day they will wake up and start following the right path.

[jorgeopesi]

3 hours ago, Paul Boratko said:

Don't lose any sleep over it.. There will always be leeches looking to profit off of someone Else's talents.

I wanted to write this but I saw that it was already wrote  .

[Cumulonimbus]

That stucks @Jeroen Ottens. I’m not a lawyer, but I’m not sure if there even is a foundation for any legal action:

I wonder to what extend the term intellectual property is applicable in case of our MOCs: We use a building system patented by TLG because as far as I know, the patents for Technic elements are still active. Additionally, most of the high-end MOCs represent real machines, for which the industrial design rights (Wikipedia) is in the hands of the OEMs of those machines.

This means that you can’t make any claim related to the building system, nor the model. As I see it, you can only claim the pictures, instructions and videos you made of your creation as your own intellectual property as mentioned above. Proving that they use your pictures and videos is easy enough, but how do you prove they used your instructions? Of course I understand the huge investment in time a complex MOC represents but I’m afraid that a homemade Lego Technic model of a real machine cannot be seen as intellectual property of the AFOL. But maybe someone can prove me wrong?

[allanp]

I think that it's kinda like taxes. It's a bummer but a necessary evil due to Lego's strength of all pieces being compatible with all other pieces, so if you can see it you can build it. So as others have said, if you can fight it then fight it dispassionately, but if you can't fight it, seek satisfaction in the knowledge that there are other more honest people out there that are willing to pay for your designs, and also that there are people that love your design so much that they are willing go put the time and money into recreating it. As far as fighting them goes, I thought of all kinds of things, like encrypting your instructions in a way that can only be decrypted by a dedicated instruction viewer app that somehow disables the print screen function of the computer while open (by pushing print screen, the function works but it shows a different image on screen, like a special message saying "stop being a thieving dick!" and that is what gets print screened) and can also detect camera flashes via the computers webcam and shuts down. Or perhaps we could create a hall of shame topic, which anyone can use to add sellers who sell copied instructions or counterfeit Lego, so anyone can use that as a reference (like rebrickable or brickset) to check before buying from anyone, even if the thief is selling real Lego sets as well, I wouldn't buy from (support) them if they are also selling fake or stolen goods. This wouldn't need to be it's own website, just a post here on Eurobricks which everyone can add to, and everyone would be made aware of it in other forums. Maybe this would dissuade future thieves? I don't know if any of that is feasible!

[Erik Leppen]

17 hours ago, Jeroen Ottens said:

Or is there a way to actually win the fight against these thieving companies without costing me (a lot of) valuable time?

I'm not sure that my stance on it is what you'd wanted to hear, but I think the best way to win is by not fighting.

Your most valuable resource is time. Use it on things you enjoy. What these idiots do is drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. All it would likely do is make you angry. That's not good use of your time and energy :)

In these cases, sticking your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist, may be the least bad option afterall. It sucks, big time, but I think any other option sucks as well. They've now taken your potential revenue. Don't let them take your time as well.

[Gumalca]

 

18 hours ago, Lipko said:

The worst thing can happen if we stop sharing instructions. Pretty much the sake of a community would gone and communities would become mere photo sharing communities.

I wouldn't call that "sharing" if someone sells instructions for money. They do share the photos of their products, just like Apple "shares" photos of their iPhones, but Apple never shared any of their devices with me unless I pay them. Also the community doesn't care, there will always be people sharing photos, instructions and digital files for free. The community will live on. If there are no people sharing anything for free to start with, I wouldn't call that a community, that's a market.

I've published instructions for free myself, and I wouldn't care if I see someone selling them. That's completely in the spirit of open source communities. Even with open source licenses that many companies find quite restrictive like the GPL you are still allowed to sell anything that comes with a GPL license. I could start a business selling Firefox, that would be completely fine. I would just need to find somebody dumb enough to pay for something they can get for free elsewhere...

Now some people say they have expenses and spend effort creating instructions and they want compensation for that. That's okay. Start a crowdfunding campaign and once your expenses are compensated release the instructions for free to the community. Anything else you do is speculating on profit for you. I don't have anything against that either, but I don't see how that benefits the community.

 

7 hours ago, allanp said:

I thought of all kinds of things, like encrypting your instructions in a way that can only be decrypted by a dedicated instruction viewer app that somehow disables the print screen function of the computer while open (by pushing print screen, the function works but it shows a different image on screen, like a special message saying "stop being a thieving dick!" and that is what gets print screened) and can also detect camera flashes via the computers webcam and shuts down.

I wouldn't buy anything like that. Don't treat your customers like criminals.

[nerdsforprez]

If you come up with a solution on how to deal with thieves, you can be sure that someone will come along and steal it.  That is how pernicious and inevitable it is. 

Not to be metaphysical, but people taking advantage of people is as built in the formula of life as is people giving advantage to other people.  One simply does not exist without the other.  

Therefore, if the former is inevitable, with all due respect, I think you are asking the wrong question.  If the question is "how do I deal with thieves" well I think it is a little one-sided.  It lacks consideration of the other important variable in the formula, which is the amount of good and benefit your instructions provide to others (in your scenario).  If I may, I think the proper question may look something like this:

"How can I, (or even can I), tolerate the negative effects of sharing instructions (the inevitability of being stolen) in the context of all the good it provides." Admittedly, to properly answer this you may need a clearer picture of all the folks that benefit from your work.  We may not be talking about saving lives or something, but in my opinion hobbies are important, and helping folks de-compress and therefore put themselves in a position to adequately deal with all the crap in their lives is VERY important.  Personally, I know I benefit a great deal from builders like you who share, contribute, etc. to a hobby that not only I enjoy, but helps put me in a frame of mind to go out and do what I do best, no matter how stressful it is.  As a medical professional, this is really important.  

Essentially I think this is how most things are solved.  On a much grander scale, that is the whole rhyme and rational to how the internet exists in the first place right?  The entity that gives birth to even your dilemma.  The internet gives rise of countless examples and opportunities for people to take advantage of people, but also countless opportunities for good as well (people giving advantage to other people).  The reason why it still exists, and even flourishes I would guess, is that the latter far outweighs the former.  This is really important to understand, because it teaches that something can not only exist, but even flourish despite the fact that there are some undesirable aspects to it.  Something does not have to be perfect for it to be positive - it only has to be better than the alternative.  The alternative, in this case, is to not share.  In the opinion of this EB member, that would carry far worse consequences.  Just my 2 cents....     

[Cumulonimbus]

In your next MOCs, you could include subtle but intentional errors which prevents crucial functions working properly. The solution should only be revealed directly to trustworthy builders somehow.

Leonardo da Vinci did this in all his drawings of war machines. If you copied his drawings exactly, the machine wouldn't work. For example his tank design had a handcrank which drove the front and rear axle. In his drawing however, the mechanism was drawn is such a way that the axles worked against each other, immobilising the vehicle.

[howitzer]

Just saying that going to the way of copy protections is pissing your paying customers in eye, while doing not very much to actually prevent copying. Similar case has been going on decades with other creative media, such as computer games and music. As I see it, the best solution is to provide better service: high quality product, easy buying, responsive customer service and so on. People do want to pay for a good product but not at any cost, whether in straight money or otherwise. As others have said, LEGO constructions are inherently easy to copy, sometimes you need just a few photos, so there's not very much you can do anyway, except keeping your designs to yourself.

I've had this debate many times over in other professional communities (I'm a goldsmith myself), and in the end there's always the same conclusion: if you want to make your design public in any way, you accept the fact that it will be copied, ripped off, altered, drawn inspiration from, and so on. Some of it is morally reprehensible, some is questionable and some you should consider flattering, but it will happen no matter what.

[Chiaroscuro]

I think nerdsforprez got the right idea to easy your mindset. It is not about avoiding thieves (as they are unavoidable) but how/if you get enough benefits from your work. It could be enough for just knowing the community praises you and your builds or it could be you make enough money to cover your costs by selling your work or getting donations to support it. Of course you can try to shut down some thief operations you may come across but do not loose your sleep over it. It should be enough that at least the community knows you are the creator of such projects.

 

also trying to implement features to difficult the access of your content usually only hurts your fans/customers since thieves will always get around them.

[Jeroen Ottens]

Thank you all for your responses. I do not have a lot of time at this moment, so I can't do the responses justice right now (I'll do that a later time when things are a bit more settled in with my new house), but I given the elaborate and thought through answers I feel I should give a sign of appreciation. It has helped me to find a bit more peace of mind. And don't worry, I will not stop sharing my designs whenever possible. After all, that is why we have this forum in the first place.

Thanks again for your insights and points of view.

[aol000xw]

When you genuinely share, you give away completely. Otherwise you are not sharing, you pretend to share but, no, you want to keep control, to decide what can be done and what not. To rule over.  So why are you sharing in the first place? 

The desire to control what others do with your ideas is usually motivated by greed, but when what is done does not affect your life in any real meaningful way except how you feel is ego.

Just remember that those who care about what you do will know you made it and those who you care about will know you made it. Taking an emotional toll for people beyond those seems such a waste. 

 

 

[efferman]

Hi Jeroen, a buddy has seen at facebook an advertizing from vonado.com which had offered your LTM. Is this the same company?

[Mechbuilds]

4 hours ago, efferman said:

Hi Jeroen, a buddy has seen at facebook an advertizing from vonado.com which had offered your LTM. Is this the same company?

https://www.vonado.com/Liebherr-LTM11200-p37096.html This?

[Maaboo the Witch]

Just now, Mechbuilds said:

https://www.vonado.com/Liebherr-LTM11200-p37096.html This?

Judging by the XL motors and battery boxes seen in the pics, this is knockoff shite as well.