LEGO #21344 - Orient Express

[Shiva]

Yes, it is different from the submission.

Yes, it is wider than the 6 wide some seem to prefer. Original submission was +10wide.

Yeah, the locomotive is quite different. Original, display piece only. This, this can run on the tracks, it seems.  Original locomotive is nice, but I have seen better on ideas.

IRL 231 K 8 locomotive.

Myself, I was sure that LEGO would change the locomotive, but how, that I did not know.

The LEGO 21344 Locomotive reminds a bit of SNCF 230 G, too.  https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/230_PO_4201_à_4370

Did Orient Express, have something to do with what locomotive was chosen?

[Lyichir]

2 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Did Orient Express, have something to do with what locomotive was chosen?

It's certainly possible, that's definitely another factor with any Ideas project involving external licensing.

I can't speak much to the locomotive choice as a non-expert on trains, but I imagine the color change (from dark green to dark blue) might be either a result of focus testing finding that people preferred it to match the carriages, or simply a decision to help make it more distinct from the Emerald Night (a previous dark green steam locomotive).

[CrispyBassist]

48 minutes ago, Man with a hat said:

I like it. The coaches are really good with 8 wide and decent length and nice detailing. I was a bit surprised with the locomotive. Not that it is bad but it is a bit off. Too short basically. But it still looks nice.

It does look short, but looking at OE models from model train manufacturers (Marklin, specifically) it's correct for the loco (without the tender) to be about half the length of the passenger cars. That said, the passenger cars are shorter than prototypical, likely because they have to work on R40 track, thus the loco gets squished too.

I may get two, to extend the passenger cars a bit and still wind up with an extra one and also make adjustments to the loco!

Conveniently the OE has been around for a LONG time in different reincarnations, so just about any locomotive could be "correct" on the front of it, even modern stuff that was operating in 2022 when I photographed it:

https://flic.kr/p/2ntzTiW

[SerperiorBricks]

I understand the argument about the L vs XL drivers. I'd argue that there's no difference between making a new wheel mold for larger models and making a mold for a single minifigure head (which LEGO has been doing at increasing rates it seems). But it's less that this model 100% needed bigger wheels, but that the model they made is out of proportion. (Oversized Hogwarts Express had its own wheel mold too)
 

L Drivers can work in 8-Wide on a large Loco, they just need the right proportion

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by SerperiorBricks

[CDM]

I love the color, the coaches look great, but the locomotive is surprisingly simplified on first glance. At that price point it would be disappointing to feel the need to mod the locomotive but at the same time it's a good starting point to add some detail. Looking forward to better images.

[Lyichir]

1 minute ago, SerperiorBricks said:

I understand the argument about the L vs XL drivers. I'd argue that there's no difference between making a new wheel mold for larger models and making a mold for a single minifigure head (which LEGO has been doing at increasing rates it seems). But it's less that this model 100% needed bigger wheels, but that the model they made is out of proportion.

Beyond the matter of different sorts of sets having different budgets and using them for different things, there absolutely is a difference between the cost of a functional mold (which has to be highly tested and engineered) and a purely aesthetic mold (which merely needs the standard sorts of safety testing and does not need the same sort of precision). Limited-use molds such as the heads for one-off Star Wars characters or the like also don't need to be engineered with the same sort of long-term durability as something functional like a Technic or train part, making them both cheaper to design and to manufacture.

[THERIZE]

What a strange set in my opinion. That it was going to depart from the source material was to be expected, but they went in completely opposite directions with the locomotive and the carriages it feels like. I kind of expected that they would shrink the set so it would fit on standard track, but I don't know what they were thinking with that locomotive. It looks like they had the idea of having at least two coaches and then came up with a basic locomotive to not go over the price count. The proportions are off and it looks like a cheap toy. I have seen so many beautiful designs made by talented fan designers here that also run on the normal track, so why couldn't LEGO themselves? 

the coaches are beautiful however, if you ask me. I think the designer(s) captured the essence of the submitted one well, even though they shrunk it down and the interior is clearly not based of the real Orient Express. I just don't understand why they didn't just have one and spend the rest of the set budget to build a better locomotive. It worked with the Emerald Night, right? 

Depending on the parts usage I might just buy the set for the coaches alone, and build a better locomotive myself. That's the advantage with LEGO, you can change it if you don't like it. 

 

1 hour ago, Murdoch17 said:

Model railroad companies are in business for (semi) realism, and market to serious folks - model railroaders. Lego is a building brick company that happens to make trains with those bricks, mostly for kids and some adults. Would you prefer a model that doesn't run on the track they provide?

With no disrespect, I fully disagree with your opinion. Seeing it as 'just a train by a building brick company' does not make sense if you look at the beautiful sets LEGO has made over the years. The Orient Express isn't a one-of display set where everything else is a toy set for kids. Concorde, the large scale cars, the Space Shuttle. Even within Ideas they have sets like the globe and Stratocaster that are purely display sets, just to name a few.

Even if it's something like a 1 metre long Titanic model which of course, a serious ship modeller wouldn't buy, they still put effort into making it a genuinely good LEGO set, and here they just didn't, 

Even if they didn't want to make a ten studs wide display set they could've still built a decent locomotive perhaps around the size and complexity of the Emerald Night, I think the general opinion of this set could've been much better, without a big increase in parts.

Edited October 11, 2023 by THERIZE
Adding some more of my opinions.

[Sven J]

1 hour ago, Murdoch17 said:

Also, this engine is based on a real loco: Bavarian S 3/5 N (with a three wheel tender) is they type I found it's closest too. So it's not a caricature, it's based firmly in reality!

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but:
No. No. No.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Sven J

[SerperiorBricks]

Two coaches is what was asked for, and the coaches are beautiful. If making new wheels is possible, then they should design a model that uses them well. BBB and other retailers in the community have great XL train wheels, and it is not the expectation of LEGO to make these wheels for us when modifying the locomotive is so easy. If making new wheels is not possible, then they should work with the scale and locomotive design to make something look proper. (The EN was based off of A1's but not matching any particular one, the engine doesn't have to exactly exist either)

The issue is that the train does not match the scale of the wheels, and looks bloated - possibly an afterthought to adapt to the height of the coaches? 

LEGO made a locomotive that was out of scale with itself. Their For 'Adults' line shouldn't be required to make a train into a toy (it can still play and handle with the proper design standards, but it can look professional) - like the Crocodile, which took the limitations of 6w and 40r train track with stride, still creating an incredible model that managed to use the L drivers properly. R40 is only a limitation to long locomotives, many wheel bases can handle the standard radius perfectly fine.  

Edited October 11, 2023 by SerperiorBricks

[Murdoch17]

To whom it may concern: If you can build a better train, then do so - It's Lego and that's what you're meant to do if you don't like something. If you think Lego designers are being led astray, I suggest you try to become one. Then you can be screamed at by AFOLs about how your models are bad or incorrect or flights of fancy.

I, for one, am just happy be got an IDEAS train at long last. The path to this set is littered with other good models being passed over. (I'm STILL pissed over Thomas not making the cut!)

Edited October 11, 2023 by Murdoch17

[Lyichir]

So fun parts use my sister spotted—see the stud sticking out of the back of the domes on the boiler? Looks like those aren't just regular domes, but rather unprinted dark blue Minion heads! https://brickset.com/parts/6310573/design-brick-2x2x2-w-1-knob-no-5

[Brickviller V2]

The coaches look fantastic, and I somewhat appreciate the steam engine. However, this set probably isn't my cup of tea. The coaches appear enourmous, especially when compared to older options like those from the Horizon Express and Emerald Night.

Moreover, I find it rather peculiar that they chose to entirely revamp the IDEAS submission instead of adapting the original idea to a scale more suitable for train tracks.

Nonetheless, the set's overall appearance is quite appealing, whether with or without the engine. It's however a bit disheartening that we haven't seen a train set as groundbreaking as the Emerald Night in the past decade.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Brickviller V2

[RichardGoring]

3 hours ago, Murdoch17 said:

I, for one feel sorry for the Ideas team - and by extension, all Lego set designers - they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. You couldn't pay me enough to take the abuse they do from the "fans".

Agreed. It can be pretty harsh.

FWIW, I really like it and think it looks terrific. The locomotive feels a bit small compared to the coaches, but I love the detail they've been able to get into the coaches. Looking forward to getting it.

[Mr Hobbles]

I agree that the locomotive isn't great, but by and large I love this set. Also, the Crocodile wouldn't look bad hauling the Orient Express. ;)

[Pelzer117]

On 10/4/2023 at 10:58 PM, M_slug357 said:

@Pelzer117 No, TLG saw @LEGOTrainBuilderSG ‘s version and decided to scrap their version. No news yet as to what happens next though…

 

@M_slug357: sad to say, but you are dam right. I am honestly total dissapointed from the released set.

4 hours ago, SerperiorBricks said:

The coaches really are beautiful, but um.. see attached

Made my day! 

[XG BC]

so here are my thoughts:

-it runs on normal track and r40 too. good.

-the coaches look very nice.

-the locomotive looks like the hogwarts express one tbh. maybe a bit better with actual connecting rods but not good. looks like a playset loco, nothing that fits to the wagons. needs serious modding.

overall its ok, loco isnt up to the rest of the set.

[Pelzer117]

On 10/4/2023 at 3:37 AM, LEGOTrainBuilderSG said:

Orient Express By Michal on Flickr

After seeing this, how am I not going to be disappointed for the upcoming LEGO version of the Orient Express.. 

 

12 minutes ago, XG BC said:

-the locomotive looks like the hogwarts express one tbh. maybe a bit better with actual connecting rods but not good. looks like a playset loco, nothing that fits to the wagons. needs serious modding.

YES! I will wait for the "Mods" solutions of the Masterbuilders. But I am afraid, THIS needs much more modding than the crocodile.

[lifeinplastic]

I’d like to buy this set but concerned if the writing at the side of the train is stickered as in that case I won’t bother as this is an essential part of the train’s identity but just ruined if it is a sticker.

[XG BC]

stumbled across this on reddit: https://reddit.com/r/LEGOtrains/s/lFpMYaxFNg

looks like a good starting point, the Windbreakers and 4th driver make it look better, the og loco that @LEGOTrainBuilderSG made is a tad big for the wagons for my taste (just to be absolutely clear, this loco is still an awesome model)

Edited October 11, 2023 by XG BC

[RedBrick1]

3 minutes ago, XG BC said:

stumbled across this on reddit: https://reddit.com/r/LEGOtrains/s/lFpMYaxFNg

 

The mods done to the locomotive are going to be great to see. I think there is a ton of potential with this set and I'm looking forward to picking up at least one copy - maybe two. 

[LordsofMedieval]

3 hours ago, Murdoch17 said:

To whom it may concern: If you can build a better train, then do so - It's Lego and that's what you're meant to do if you don't like something. If you think Lego designers are being led astray, I suggest you try to become one. Then you can be screamed at by AFOLs about how your models are bad or incorrect or flights of fancy.

"Nobody can critique the chef/film maker/architect/painter/author/etc. because you don't understand their struggle."

That's the internet's oldest logical fallacy. I know *I* can do better. I know dozens of people on this forum can do better - I've seen them. There are better efforts posted here practically twice a week.

Lego's employees are supposed experts (their own literature has described them as 'master builders'). They're being paid - in many cases - big, big bucks to produce this stuff. Their company is worth billions. The set is being marketed towards adults. All of the above are reasons we should be seeing a pro-level build. 

The notion here is that we should praise everything because someone's feelings might get hurt. I reject that outright. If you put work out there TO BE SOLD and it's lousy, criticism is earned and deserved (this is very different from posting something to these forums and hearing crickets because nobody has anything nice to say; politeness is the rule for amateurs, not professionals). The free market isn't about shielding egos - isn't about demanding better when better is infinitely achievable. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by LordsofMedieval

[Kalahari134]

6 hours ago, LordsofMedieval said:

They didn't do that with the  Lighthouse,

Well they did make a non-functional display piece into a minifigure scale working model. 

[Lyichir]

16 minutes ago, LordsofMedieval said:

"Nobody can critique the chef/film maker/architect/painter/author/etc. because you don't understand their struggle."

That's the internet's oldest logical fallacy. I know *I* can do better. I know dozens of people on this forum can do better - I've seen them. There are better efforts posted here practically twice a week.

Lego's employees are supposed experts (their own literature has described them as 'master builders'). They're being paid - in many cases - big, big bucks to produce this stuff. Their company is worth billions. The set is being marketed towards adults. All of the above are reasons we should be seeing a pro-level build. 

The notion here is that we should praise everything because someone's feelings might get hurt. I reject that outright. If you put work out there TO BE SOLD and it's lousy, criticism is earned and deserved (this is very different from posting something to these forums and hearing crickets because nobody has anything nice to say; politeness is the rule for amateurs, not professionals). The free market isn't about shielding egos - isn't about demanding better when better is infinitely achievable. 

God, I hate this attitude. Nobody's saying you need to praise everything. Just don't be an megablock. It's ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to critique things you dislike about a set without insulting or making accusations about the people who made it. And assuming the worst about why a set is the way it is not only rude, it's stupid and illogical—if you really think it would be so easy to do something better than what's offered, it's probably worth asking yourself some questions about why those choices were made.

But as you say, "politeness is for amateurs"! It sure is convenient to have an excuse that lets you assume that you're superior to everyone else AND that that makes it okay to be hateful and immature. Communities would indeed be better off without people like you polluting them with your vile attitudes.

[LordsofMedieval]

4 minutes ago, Lyichir said:

God, I hate this attitude. Nobody's saying you need to praise everything. Just don't be an megablock. It's ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to critique things you dislike about a set without insulting or making accusations about the people who made it. And assuming the worst about why a set is the way it is not only rude, it's stupid and illogical—if you really think it would be so easy to do something better than what's offered, it's probably worth asking yourself some questions about why those choices were made.

But as you say, "politeness is for amateurs"! It sure is convenient to have an excuse that lets you assume that you're superior to everyone else AND that that makes it okay to be hateful and immature. Communities would indeed be better off without people like you polluting them with your vile attitudes.

Heaven forbid that people ask the big company to do better with the product they are selling. 

You are acting like this set was some charitable gift to us from the hands of a kindly philanthropist. 

Get outraged about it. You're being absurd. It's extremely easy - even lazy - to defend the status quo. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by LordsofMedieval

[Kalahari134]

4 hours ago, CrispyBassist said:

Conveniently the OE has been around for a LONG time in different reincarnations, so just about any locomotive could be "correct" on the front of it, even modern stuff that was operating in 2022 when I photographed it:

Even a GWR small prairie. Imagine the Internet wibble if they'd modeled this. 

https://theflourmill.com/images/locomotives_5521_1.JPG

6 minutes ago, LordsofMedieval said:

Heaven forbid that people ask the big company to do better with the product they are selling. 

You are acting like this set was some charitable gift to us from the hands of a kindly philanthropist. 

Get outraged about it. You're being absurd.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. 

God, the whinging is tedious