Kolonialbeamter

New Ship Classes - The Transition

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New Ship Classes - The Transition

 

Welcome to the new ship classes, everyone! Read about them in detail here!

In this thread we will guide you through all licensing issues revolving around the new ship classes.

In short, the transition will work as follows:

  • The current licenses of all surviving ships will be fully refunded.
  • Captured (or otherwise acquired) licenses that you have in stock will be conveniently converted to the new classes - eg. a 5F and a 5A2 both become a class 5 under the new regime.

In the spirit of an open community we ask everyone to list their currently licensed vessels here (one post per member, edit it if necessary), along with links to the thread they were originally posted in, plus if possible a complete list of your additional licenses. Please also state the intended new ship classes of your vessels. This will allow a peer review of your fellow brethren, and hopefully help everybody to get a feeling for the new classes and their requirements. The whole process will be monitored by the members of the Naval Licensing and Prize Court and the Brethren Court. Please take their advise when they offer it, as they have been dealing with these classes for a longer time already :classic:

Our final goal is to develop an open ship register, similar in transparency to the account sheet we already have, so it will be clear what ships are cruising the Brick Seas at all time.

Please be patient regarding the re-licensing of your ships - the forms are still in the making, but will arrive in time for the next MCRA. We'll keep you posted.

A final note: We know it will take a certain time and learning effort to become accustomed to the new classes, and to get a feeling for the required sizes for each new class. But we've managed to get there before, so we'll be able to do it again :wink:

If you got any questions and/or need advise, by all means feel free to ask - that's what this thread is all about!

 

Reference MOCs for all ship classes:

 

Class 0 - Pearl Diving Canoe

24725138584_a9cb01159c_n.jpg

Just a small canoe, not ocean going, but doing well in coastal waters - with enough cargo space for plenty of precious pearls.

Class Cost Stat Points Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull Sum
      (1-6) (1-6) (0-12) (0-12) (0-15) (0-12)  
0 24 6 1 3 0 0 2 0 6

 

Class 1 - The Saucy Gibbon

25048851442_214f4d06f9_n.jpg

 Fast little sloop outfitted for inter island trade runs and coastal exploration.

Class Cost Stat Points Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull Sum
      (1-6) (1-6) (0-12) (0-12) (0-15) (0-12)  
1 60 9 2 3 0 1 2 1 9

 

Class 2 - Pride of Poseidon

24649692994_22c86d382c_m.jpg

Light, maneuverable patrol vessel with enough firepower to hunt down smugglers.

Class Cost Stat Points Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull Sum
      (1-6) (1-6) (0-12) (0-12) (0-15) (0-12)  
2 120 12 3 4 2 1 0 2 12

 

Class 3 - HMS Otter

24149567333_39b249b362_n.jpg

With her highly maneuverable cutter rig, medium range capability, and armed with a set of 4 pounders, the Otter is perfect for the job as a patrol craft.

Class Cost Stat Points Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull Sum
      (1-6) (1-6) (0-12) (0-12) (0-15) (0-12)  
3 200 15 3 6 2 2 0 2 15

 

Class 4 - Asesino

27187040030_01cd064695.jpg

Sturdy brig-of-war armed with 16 long guns, she can hold her own against any opponent in her class.

Class Cost Stat Points Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull Sum
      (1-6) (1-6) (0-12) (0-12) (0-15) (0-12)  
4 300 18 4 4 4 4 0 2 18

 

Class 5 - Ironsides

29908247102_9d3c2f53a5_n.jpg

Armed with several carronades and manned by a man'o'war crew, the Ironsides is a powerful warship for her size, and her heavy scantlings make her hull a tough nut to crack. Outfitted for the high seas, her range is long, but her old-fashioned rig limits her maneuverability.

Class Cost Stat Points Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull Sum
      (1-6) (1-6) (0-12) (0-12) (0-15) (0-12)  
5 420 21 5 3 4 4 0 5 21

 

Class 6 - Alejandro de Vargas

29387794794_7d95097d3a_n.jpg

Old fashioned galleon. Doesn't possess the greatest sailing qualities, but with a sturdy hull and decent firepower this terraman is not to be messed with easily.

Class Cost Stat Points Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull Sum
      (1-6) (1-6) (0-12) (0-12) (0-15) (0-12)  
6 560 24 4 3 4 4 4 5 24

 

Class 7 - Margot

26050503751_1bdc37eb40_n.jpg

Built to dominate the seas, Margot doesn't disappoint. While still reasonably cheap to operate, this already legendary ship-of-the-line shows no true weaknesses, but instead offers excellent bang for the buck.

Class Cost Stat Points Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull Sum
      (1-6) (1-6) (0-12) (0-12) (0-15) (0-12)  
7 700 27 4 2 8 6 0 7 27

 

Class 8 - Triton

29289128443_77b42825d1_n.jpg

Triton - veteran of many battles and a floating fortress.

Class Cost Stat Points Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull Sum
      (1-6) (1-6) (0-12) (0-12) (0-15) (0-12)  
8 900 30 4 2 9 7 0 8 30

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Roight, the "list",

Some links seem to have been broken though during the server migration a while back, some don`t

 

The Junkyard Fleet of Quinnsville

HMS Green Dragon - 2 Fast - Active
HMS Terrigan - 1 Armed - Active
The Sea Sparrow - 1 Armed - bought from CelesAurivern - Active
Crepe Fruite - 1 Trade - bought from Francesco Clarke - Active
Fingernail - 1 Well Rounded - bought from Francesco Clarke - Active
La Espada - 0 - donated by Faladrin - Active
The Wailing Whaif - 3 Armed MCRA capture - Active
Symphony of Destruction - 2 Armed pirate vessel bought in MCRA auction - Active
Nino Grande - 4 Trade 2 - won in auction - Active
Margert - 2 Trade - won in auction - Active

((The Cod Hunter - 2 Armed - captured from Pirates, on loan from the Crown - Active)) - Disregard - will be handled by the crown. Bregir)


Drydocked
El Pollo - 3 Trade 2 - unlicensed, unmoc`ced - won in auction

Pinto - 4 Trade 2 - unlicensed, unmoc`ced - won in auction, Maestro COR vessel

Edited by Bregir
Added note to Cod Hunter :)

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Owner Legostone

Wringe II - 2F

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Wringe II 2 12 3 4 0 1 3 1 12

Cardinal II - 5HA (36 gun 5th rate)

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Cardinal II 7 27 6 3 7 6 0 5 27

Santiago - 5T (20 gun New Terraman)

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Santiago 7 27 4 2 4 3 9 5 27

(Considering the Margot is a class 7 I doubt I'll get this through, but alternatively class 8:)

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Santiago 8 30 4 2 4 4 11 5 30

Reventazone - 4T2, challenge prize, supposedly free all over

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Reventazone 4 18 5 3 2 2 4 2 18

I also hold the following licenses:

Catfish Supreme 4A Legostone
Mac Quinnes 4A Legostone
El Tigre 5HA Legostone
Merry Merfish 5T Legostone

Owner MAESTRO

La Mystique - 4T2

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
La Mystique 4 18 5 3 2 2 4 2 18

Colour of the Wind - 5F

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Colour of the Wind 5 21 6 5 1 2 5 2 21

Green Winds II - 5F

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Green Winds II 5 21 6 5 1 2 5 2 21

Owner MAESTRO COR

El Rubi - 4T2

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
El Rubi 4 18 5 3 2 2 4 2

18

Puppy Hustler - 3T2

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Puppy Hustler 3 15 4 3 1 2 3 2 15

Owner TitusV

Arkady - 2WR

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Arkady 2 12 3 3 1 1 2 2 12

Esmeralda - 5T

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Esmeralda 5 21 5 3 3 2 6 2 21

Owner Faladrin

Raenette - 2F

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Raenette 2 12 3 4 0 1 3 1 12

 

 

Further ships to re-evaluate:

Dragon's Revenge II (this one would be owned by TitusV), 28 gun 6th rate

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Dragon's Revenge II 6 24 5 3 6 5 1 4 24

Rojo Tormento - would have been a 5F

name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
Rojo Tormento 5 21 6 5 0 2 5 3 21
Edited by Legostone

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So I may ask the first question: can 1 point in firepower still be considered as equal to ~4 guns? I found it always helpful figuring out the appropriate size of a (war-)  ship aiming for a certain amount of cannon. 

And can the crew still be increased via troop location form, following the same reglement?

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30 minutes ago, Jacob Nion said:

So I may ask the first question: can 1 point in firepower still be considered as equal to ~4 guns? I found it always helpful figuring out the appropriate size of a (war-)  ship aiming for a certain amount of cannon. 

I found that helpful, too, but I don't think we'll be strict on judging this. What matters for a class rating is... well, it's actually not easy to find a hard definition... a ship just has to feel right. That's why we provide BoBS ship samples, but refrain from listing real life ship types/ratings, and want an open discussion about all ships so we all can develop a feeling for rating ships over time. Size certainly matters (pause for effect :grin:), but think tonnage, not length of hull in studs. Also, in terms of build quality, great looking ships are more likely to be approved a higher class rating if in question than rush builds.

39 minutes ago, Jacob Nion said:

And can the crew still be increased via troop location form, following the same reglement?

That will depend on the MCRA/combat rules which are currently in the making. I certainly like this feature, but maybe it gets replaced with a different mechanic.

For later we consider introducing a way to (slightly) alter your ships' stats via builds similar to the MCRA result build, so ships could fulfill multiple roles over time (merchant man during peace time, warship in times of war), without the need to buy a whole new license each time a new outfit is wanted.

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48 minutes ago, Jacob Nion said:

So I may ask the first question: can 1 point in firepower still be considered as equal to ~4 guns?

I'd say this is a little more fluid now. It can be used for a general rule, but then again, it depends on the size of the guns. If you have a class X with a lot of guns, give it as high a rating in guns as you can/want.

What determines class is size alone. What determines the distribution of stats is your preferences, although we encourage people to try to match the stats to the moc. :)

52 minutes ago, Legostone said:

(Considering the Margot is a class 7 I doubt I'll get this through, but alternatively class 8:)

I would say the Santiago is very much the "WR" equivalent to the Margot. As the Margot, she probably isn't near as manouverable as a class 7 frigate or schooner, but instead have more cargo space and firepower.

Otherwise, you ratings seem pretty good to me.

1 hour ago, Tomsche said:

HMS Terrigan - 1 Armed - Active

Its size considered, I think it would be reasonable to license the Terrigan as a class 2 under the new scheme.

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Island Rose - formerly a Class 2F - now she is a Class 3
Stats: Range - 3 l Maneuver - 6 l Firepower - 0 l Crew - 1 l Cargo - 3 l Hull - 2 l Total - 15
She has no 'guns', and the crew are merchants, not soldiers.

Consort's Duty - formerly Class 5F - now (by Bregir's judgement) she is a Class 4
Stats: Range - 5 l Maneuver - 5 l Firepower - 1 l Crew - 1 l Cargo - 4 l Hull - 2 l Total - 18
She has two small bore 'guns', and a moderate fighting crew. Her hull is designed for speed, not defense.

Valiant Phoenix - Class 3 Captured!
Stats: Range - 5 | Maneuver - 4 | Firepower - 2 | Crew - 1 | Cargo - 1 | Hull - 2 | Total - 15

Glittering Wind - Class 2 Captured!
Stats: Range - 3 | Maneuver - 5 | Firepower - 1 | Crew - 1 | Cargo - 1 | Hull - 1 | Total - 12

Edited by gedren_y
finalizing stats

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49 minutes ago, Kolonialbeamter said:

I found that helpful, too, but I don't think we'll be strict on judging this. What matters for a class rating is... well, it's actually not easy to find a hard definition... a ship just has to feel right. That's why we provide BoBS ship samples, but refrain from listing real life ship types/ratings, and want an open discussion about all ships so we all can develop a feeling for rating ships over time. Size certainly matters (pause for effect :grin:), but think tonnage, not length of hull in studs. Also, in terms of build quality, great looking ships are more likely to be approved a higher class rating if in question than rush builds.

 

Without intending to question the court's thoughts on the whole matter, I have to say that it sounds like a contradiction that size matters in the rating but without certain measurements. 

I agree that tonnage should be more important than over all length, but that's another reason why I liked the gun counting, not only for warships. 

You see, when planning a ship of a certain class I always thought of the warship type of that class and when building a tradeship, just took that size and removed the guns.

E.g., when building a 4T I would think about what size the ship would need to carry the full armament of 12 cannons for a 4A. Now that it was supposed to be a 4T, I would just remove the guns , because that space would be shipping space instead. So both types of the same class would have been at least comparable in tonnage. Of course that's not a perfect system, but I found it reasonable. 

Now looking at the given examples, I don't understand why the Margot is considered a class 7 instead of a higher class. Well, my thoughts about this case are a bit complicated.

Even without specific ship type licenses (war, trade, wr) people certainly know what purpose the ships they are building will serve. And the Margot was certainly intended to be a warship. Know if it would be about the amount of guns with the old 1~4 cannon scheme it would definitely be a class 10. But what would it take this ships to be a class 10? More tonnage for more cargo space? Wouldn't make any sense since it's a warship. Additional cannons? Would be odd since the firepower can't go over 12 points so a class 8 ship with g12 should have the same amount of guns than class 10 with g12. 

And about the aspect of build quality, that's a highly subjective matter. Please don't get me wrong, of course I know that nobody intends to segregate people with less building experience or skills or parts collection, but I think especially people with higher building skills should be encouraged to fit the reasonable size of a class, to give newbies and less experienced fellow guidance and inspiration. 

So far that's it. In  the end I always trust in everyone's sense for unwritten guidelines. I am confident that this will become a solid system.

@Bregir the size of guns was always the "creative license" for me. For example your 4A galley was reasonable even with only one massive chase gun. Or my very own junk that features less than 12 guns but also heavy chase guns. 

Another thing: I imploringly hope that we don't end up in discussions like "although your ship has the right tonnage, it can't have a maneuver of 5 because it's too top heavy" or the like in the court. Of course some ship types are unlikely to reach high speed, but I liked about BoBS that people without ship expertise could build without being forced to follow accuracy. And speaking for myself, it would make me sad if I couldn't build extravagant galleons with ridiculously hight aftcastles anymore because they don't match the ship characteristics I need. 

I appreciate reasonable rigging and I am always amazed by the rigging expertise of many brethren around here, but as a clasdic lego pirate, and for fun's sake, I will always prefer fancy design over enough sail area. 

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Jacob, we have to use size for the simple matter that it is the only relatively fixed measure. For guns, you can cram more guns into any size of ship. Under a "guns decide" scheme, that ship would have advantage over one with a more realistic distribution. Under this scheme instead, that ship (Margot case in point) would have high gun ratings, but sacrifice something else, be it cargo space or maneuver. This is fairly parallel to the real world where a ship with many guns would suffer, as the seamen would have little room to work, many other things to do (serve the guns) and as the ship would be heavier and have to carry more ammo. On the upside, it would be an absolute beast in a broadside battle. A ship like Bodi's excellent 40 gun frigate is in the same class as the margot, but I would expect Bodi to put more point into maneuver and less into guns.

However, we will not police the actual stats. If you build a barge with 20 guns and no sails but claim it is highly maneuverable, you can license it as such. We will only "police" the choice of class. And only if it is outside creative license.

I very much expect people to license their ships somewhat in accordance to the,moc, though:)

As to the max for firepower(and others), that may be negotiable once we get this up and running. We will likely maintain the max for range and maneuver, but I can see us loosening up the others over time.

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Does a player's "free" class 1 or class 2 ship count against their ship level limit of 10?

Does that "free" ship also incur upkeep costs?

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Two corrections that didn't make it into the final write-up due to Germany not quite winning the Eurovision Song Contest yesterday night :grin:

Class 10 gets a total of 39 stat points, instead of 36.

Class 9 maneuverability is max. 5 instead of 6, for class 10 it's max. 4.

 

Just now, Capt Wolf said:

Does a player's "free" class 1 or class 2 ship count against their ship level limit of 10?

Yes. It also counts against the free upkeep. 'Free' license just means there's no license cost.

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3 hours ago, Kolonialbeamter said:
3 hours ago, Capt Wolf said:

Does a player's "free" class 1 or class 2 ship count against their ship level limit of 10?

Yes. It also counts against the free upkeep. 'Free' license just means there's no license cost.

That's what I thought. Just wanted to make sure it was clear for everyone. Thanks.

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What about adding soldiers as crew to vessels? Is this still possible?

And what is the penalty for not investing in crew member but instead buying extra troops to man a vessel?

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The Lady Jacqueline - Formally Class 5F now possibly a Class 4???

The Alexander Keith (ex-Alejandro de Vargas) - Formally Class 5T now... well I guess a Class 6 as she is the example at the top of the page! :pir-laugh:

HMS Royal Oak (ex-Black Oak) - Not licensed as I was waiting on the new ship classes. I think she would be a Class... actually I have no idea hence why I've listed her here for review. I won't licence straight away as I want to fix her up a bit (especially the rigging) and re-photograph.

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I guess these would be my vessels:

                          322,5 10  
name class Stat points Range Manouver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum Status Licence? Owner Upkeep Maxim Active Maxim MOC
Purple Rain 4 18 4 5 2 2 3 2 18 active active Maxim I 75 4 http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/121836-esl-fb1-class-4t2-purple-rain/
Prince of Stedor 6 24 4 2 4 4 5 5 24 active active Maxim I 140 6 http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=130691
AQAR 7 27 4 4 7 5 0 7 27 Drydocked no none 0 0 http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/148884-esl-ch5c-capturing-the-aqar/
Tuna King 3 15 3 5 1 1 3 2 15 Drydocked captured licence Maxim I 0 0 http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/149485-esl-chal-5d-captain-rijsks-unfortunate-day-part-2-misleaded/
Purple Revenge 5 21 4 6 4 4 0 3 21 Drydocked no none 0 0 http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/148456-esl-fb-class-5la-the-purple-reign-a-fast-answer/
Goldi Locks 5 21 3           3 Drydocked captured licence Maxim I 0 0  
Another soldier 2 12 3 5 2 1 0 1 12 Drydocked free none 0 0 http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/119418-esl-the-knight-of-stedor-6-gun-cutter/
Margot 7 27 4 2 8 6 0 7 27 unavailable Dread Treasure II Eslandola 0 0 http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=126812
Royal Beluga 5 21 4 4 5 4 0 4 21 unavailable Beluga II Eslandola 0 0 http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/143317-esl-ol-beluga/
Edited by Maxim I

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19 minutes ago, Maxim I said:

What about adding soldiers as crew to vessels? Is this still possible?

And what is the penalty for not investing in crew member but instead buying extra troops to man a vessel?

We are still undecided on this issue. Will get back on this, hopefully before you start licensing these ships.

18 minutes ago, Ayrlego said:

The Lady Jacqueline - Formally Class 5F now possibly a Class 4???

The Alexander Keith (ex-Alejandro de Vargas) - Formally Class 5T now... well I guess a Class 6 as she is the example at the top of the page! :pir-laugh:

HMS Royal Oak (ex-Black Oak) - Not licensed as I was waiting on the new ship classes. I think she would be a Class... actually I have no idea hence why I've listed her here for review. I won't licence straight away as I want to fix her up a bit (especially the rigging) and re-photograph.

I would say 4, 6 & 6. The Royal Oak is a typical example of a light frigate, hence a class 6. :)

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1 minute ago, Bodi said:

I own only one ship till now:

Drakkar 2F, it should be a 1F according to the new classification?

 

While I'm not an expert, I think a 2WR equivalent could be fitting as well:

  equivalent statpoints Range Maneuver Firepower Crew Cargo Hull sum
2WR 2 12 3 4 1 1 2 1 12

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31 minutes ago, Bregir said:

We are still undecided on this issue. Will get back on this, hopefully before you start licensing these ships.

I would say 4, 6 & 6. The Royal Oak is a typical example of a light frigate, hence a class 6. :)

I'm sorry to question again, but I have doubts about the suggestion regarding the Royal Oak. @Kolonialbeamter stated that real life ship types wouldn't be a matter defining shipclasses, but size instead and "right feel". The Royal Oak is pretty much the size that was established as class 5A until now, especially the armament of 20 guns. I know, I know, we had the discussion about firepower already, but since she's built as a warship, what other aspect could be used to evaluate?

To say that she's a light frigate and therefore a certain class is contradictory to what Kolonialbeamter said. And it would bother me since that's exactly the kind of discussion we tried to avoid in BoBS. 

You see, my whole problem with evaluating the ships now is that there are no standards. I don't think this whole 'right feel about it' will work without problems. On the one hand it is said that size and tonnage matter, on the other hand we don't want strict measurement rules in studs. And on the third hand (:pir-grin:) it is said that quality would be a factor. But I'm no fan of evaluating quality outside of contests. What quality standards are we looking for? Elaborated techniques? Accurate rigging? This doesn't work for me. 

And I'd really like to avoid this ship type aspect. It limits creativity in my opinion because most more realistic ships built for bobs are either frigates, sloops, and a galeon once in a while. Ship building, especially in BoBS deserves to be more diverse, without looking only at types of rigging used by the royal navy from 1750 to 1800 (not that I would not enjoy these vessels and the models of them around here). 

But what about the few junks around here e.g.? How to compare them to a frigate? Or ships that are more inspired by official TLC ships, which are far from historical accurate models? 

I don't know how to solve this yet, but I definitely welcome the new system. Defining my own licenses adds to the strategy aspect of the game and that's great.

But I don't believe that we will find a satisfying consent without real standards. 

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Thank you Legostone! 

I was still trying to figure out the old classes, now I'm completely lost with the newer ones.:pir-grin:

 

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Re: Jacob.

The standards are the reference mocs. Those are the archetypes, sizewise. I think that is fairly clear? Especially as we get more and more ships to help establish the baseline.

If a ship is built heavier, it will be in a higher class than a ship of the same length that is very lightly built. I am pretty sure this will make sense over time. :)

It really doesn't matter if it is a frigate as I said above. It was a slip of the tongue.

But what size it is is all that matters. As far as I remember, the Royal Oak is somewhat larger than the Ironsides (reference moc for 5) and similar sized to the size 6 reference. If I am mistaken in that evaluation, I shall happily hear arguments. I will check up on it again when I have the time. :)

Regarding quality, I think what KB is trying to say is that quality has to be up to par. If someone tries to stretch a sub-par build to get a higher rating, we will intervene. But otherwise, quality is irrelevant. We just expect people to put in an effort, not to tyr to game the system.

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52 minutes ago, Bodi said:

Thank you Legostone! 

I was still trying to figure out the old classes, now I'm completely lost with the newer ones.:pir-grin:

 

I think your Drakkar could be a class two too, although it is on the small side. I would think such a vessel would have high maneuver stat, but low hull and firepower stats, for instance, considering her build. (Thes are just tips)

Also, Legostone, I would definitely min/max my stats more than you seem to be doing - but that is more a personal preference :P I actually have no idea how the combat system will work, but I expect it to be balanced in regards to the different stats. (No one stat to rule them all)

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