Generic Contest Discussion

[SaperPL]

7 hours ago, pow said:

Why not building something that walks with legs and has steering a.k.a can change direction.

And people can decide on there own if they build animals (f.e. insects) or technical robots like toilet cleaning pillars (to pick up the toilet thingy) or diesel punk vehicles with mechanical stuff on top, for the hard core constructors?

Edit: Oh i forgot to mention walking Star Wars Tanks(?) as an option, are they called tanks? Definitely not - but you know what i mean.

It's seems like a good idea. I wonder though if this is something that should or shouldn't have size requirement because small size requirement could make everyone follow similar mechanical principles for walking, while unlimited size could mean going for some mindstorms stuff and implementing full fledged hexapods etc, which may deter others from even trying when they see some of those expensive approaches in progress.

About Star Wars - I think you mean AT-AT

[Erik Leppen]

On 9/12/2023 at 10:59 AM, msk6003 said:

I don't know about function but how about build technic 'building'?

If you don't know about functions, then that may be a sign that it's not really a suitable theme.

19 hours ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

If there is to be a truck competition, I'd rather have the model predefined, like a semi truck/tractor truck + trailer contest. Folks can go wild with the functions they wanna put in the trailer. Or just a semi truck contest, but that might be too limiting.

My reason for proposing trucks is that I expect that almost everyone will find something they like to try to build. If it's limited to, say, semi trucks, then I'd probably be out for example, because I have zero interest in those. But within the broader range of trucks, I can imagine trying to build a concrete mixer. Or a fire truck. Or a garbage truck. Etc.

17 hours ago, howitzer said:

Yes, for truck contest the scale limitation should be something other than wheel size, probably width would be best. For example, 15 studs wide chassis/exterior, with mirrors allowed to extend outside of that but the rest must fit within.

Agreed, I think a maximum width works best (and a maximum length that isn't too limiting)

12 hours ago, Berthil said:

I would welcome a Model Team contest, this is the 'LEGO Technic, Mindstorms, Model Team and Scale Modeling' forum. Technic we had a lot, Mindstorms has been discontinued, Model Team and Scale Modeling with a good combination of Technic and System remains.

I'd really like to see a re-run of the Model Team contest. That one has been quite a while ago.

23 hours ago, Lipko said:

• anymals
• real space related stuff
• manufacturing machinery
• working musical instrument (anything that can produce real melodies)

I'd be wary of doing themes for which we have seen zero examples. I'm sure Lego musical instruments exist, but if this were to be a contest, I'd expect fewer entries than there are prizes... I do like the animals idea. Speaking of which:

10 hours ago, pow said:

Why not building something that walks with legs and has steering a.k.a can change direction.

I really like the walker idea. Especially if some kind of "steering" is a requirement. That will be fun :) (also, this is broader than just "animals" but includes most of them. So you'd basically still have animals, but allow a broader range of stuff to cater to more people.) Edit: indeed, no size limit for this. Weight is already costly for walking mechanisms :)

Edited September 13, 2023 by Erik Leppen

[Lipko]

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

I'd be wary of doing themes for which we have seen zero examples. I'm sure Lego musical instruments exist, but if this were to be a contest, I'd expect fewer entries than there are prizes... I do like the animals idea. Speaking of which:

Sorry, my English sucks hard. By musical instrument I meant some music machine (be it a marble machine, percussion machine, music box with ballerine, whatever), not modelling a guitar or trumpet.

[Milan]

5 hours ago, msk6003 said:

TC4 was model team contest.

I wouldn't view it as a one-time event.
Model Team is a part of this forum, just like Technic.
Similarly, as we have regular Technic contests, we should also consider having Model Team, Scale Modeling, and Mindstorms contests from time to time.
Of course, the ratio should be based on popularity and interest in these themes.
 

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

I'd really like to see a re-run of the Model Team contest. That one has been quite a while ago.

I agree.
Perhaps we could consider the number of Model Team MOCs that have been posted on the forum in the last year, compared to the number of Technic MOCs (even though the line between them is sometimes thin). If the ratio is, let's say, 1:15, then every fifteenth contest could be a Model Team contest.

[Davidz90]

5 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

I'm sure Lego musical instruments exist, but if this were to be a contest, I'd expect fewer entries than there are prizes...

Finally a contest I'd have a chance of winning 

 

[howitzer]

18 hours ago, SaperPL said:

You can fit more functions in a bigger model. Of course if you make a low quality model that's just bigger, it doesn't do it, but it's easier to achieve awesomeness factor with a larger model.

In the most recent contest I think all of the winning entries were the ones with most functions/mechanisms, one of them being really small, but still it is easier to fit more functions in a bigger model and still look good. Despite there being between 6 and 8 other entries that perfectly implemented the idea of the contest, even in jury voting it was the ones with most functions being selected for podium.

Second example is TC20 where there were multiple smaller entries that didn't stand a chance against bigger sets being rebuilt in studless - with a specific size in mind, it is clear for newcomers what they need to build.

Of course you can, but if we're still talking about the possible truck contest, what advantage functions-wise you think could be achieved with a really long truck? What conceivably realistic functions fit into a wind turbine rotor blade or into a road train trailers that don't fit in single trailer? I guess someone could build a road train with several flatbed trailers loaded with an excavator, bulldozer, steamroller, tank, and whatever else could be transported with a flatbed trailer, but that would be a) extremely unrealistic b) huge effort, which make such an entry quite improbable. And even so, I'm sure vast majority voters can discern an obvious attempt to gain a cheap wow-factor with a big but badly built thing from a genuine attempt to make a good model that just happens to be large.

I went through the contests of my time here (starting at TC16) and I couldn't really build up much of a real relation with size and contest success, for example in the TC20 you mentioned my own quite small and functionally not very impressive 8824 recreation did quite well, ending in place 13 of 47. For other contests I looked it seemed to be even less true that larger entries do better, there were tons and tons of very large builds with lower rankings and many smaller entries with higher rankings. If you're only looking at size, it seems the sweet-spot is somewhere in the middle, which is to be expected when you think of it: small builds are generally quite easy to build and can't have impressive functions, while large builds tend to be overly complicated and badly designed with the lack of constraints to force good design. There are significant exceptions of course, for example 2GodBDGlory's entry for TC25 and Berthil's entry for TC23.

[SaperPL]

21 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Of course you can, but if we're still talking about the possible truck contest, what advantage functions-wise you think could be achieved with a really long truck? What conceivably realistic functions fit into a wind turbine rotor blade or into a road train trailers that don't fit in single trailer? I guess someone could build a road train with several flatbed trailers loaded with an excavator, bulldozer, steamroller, tank, and whatever else could be transported with a flatbed trailer, but that would be a) extremely unrealistic b) huge effort, which make such an entry quite improbable. And even so, I'm sure vast majority voters can discern an obvious attempt to gain a cheap wow-factor with a big but badly built thing from a genuine attempt to make a good model that just happens to be large.

I meant things like this:

Where simply you can have long tractor to squeeze more functions in it, then there's a dolly that has some functionality for detaching the low part of the trailer and it has some mechanism to raise it, then you have the trailer which can have a long end that can fit a better mechanism for steering. The width though is the question whether the requirement is the scale or overall width of the truck, but still if the length is unlimited, there are various types of oversize load carriers that can be built with more bricks. Simple road train isn't exciting, but something like this can get you bonus scores and also if length is not a limit, then you can build the tractor that is twice as long as someone else's European style semi tractor.

 

31 minutes ago, howitzer said:

I went through the contests of my time here (starting at TC16) and I couldn't really build up much of a real relation with size and contest success, for example in the TC20 you mentioned my own quite small and functionally not very impressive 8824 recreation did quite well, ending in place 13 of 47. For other contests I looked it seemed to be even less true that larger entries do better, there were tons and tons of very large builds with lower rankings and many smaller entries with higher rankings. If you're only looking at size, it seems the sweet-spot is somewhere in the middle, which is to be expected when you think of it: small builds are generally quite easy to build and can't have impressive functions, while large builds tend to be overly complicated and badly designed with the lack of constraints to force good design. There are significant exceptions of course, for example 2GodBDGlory's entry for TC25 and Berthil's entry for TC23.

Compare the 3rd place Forklift Transporter in TC20 to  @GerritvdG's 8835 - in both cases the challenging part was the forklift, while the transporter wasn't that hard to achieve apart from having parts. Moreover I feel like it was a winner for having built both models for side by side photo.

Your hovercraft was awesome as well with how you used the curved panels all over it. And there were more small to medium sized entries there that could've been on the podium.

My point is not that it's not fair that a bigger model being obviously more detailed and polished shouldn't win, but that the construction of competitions without specific size makes it so that picking smaller models is bound to end up outside of the podium and for newcomers it's going to be discouraging them from entering again. Having a specific size requirement means also not only what is your upper size limit, but also lets you know how big you need to build to be competitive. To checke whether this is actually true, I think we would have to check how many of newcomers stopped re-entering other contests after going small in their first and only contest and ask them about the reason why they never entered another contest.

Also in context of TC20, one 8880 was on 5th place while, and this is obviously just my subjective opinion, wasn't really that good, and it was just big and had many features that usually fit in supercars at this size. And in context of aesthetic quality, IMO your hovercraft and  @GerritvdG's forklift were better because they were less messy and in spirit of their original models.

In contrast to that, my studless 8816 model wasn't really a big thing to achieve because the original model was like "my first technic beams use" kind of 90 degree connected technic beams and it's only advanced technique was the fenders which in my model I got for free because of bent liftarms, so I don't have any problem with it being scored so low.

For me, I feel like it shouldn't be about who makes bigger thing with more functions, but if someone does something as you did with base of the hovercraft fitting so well that original base custom piece or how @Samolot put together panels on the tow truck body to modernize it, or figuring out whatever type of mechanism or shape in small size, is something that should be rewarded, but we're not going to get there if size and amount of functions being treated as awesomeness factor has significantly more weight than unique building techniques and solving problems. So I'd prefer contest with even ground because of that.

[kolbjha]

9 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

I really like the walker idea. Especially if some kind of "steering" is a requirement. That will be fun :) (also, this is broader than just "animals" but includes most of them. So you'd basically still have animals, but allow a broader range of stuff to cater to more people.) Edit: indeed, no size limit for this. Weight is already costly for walking mechanisms :)

Agree. No need for any size constraints. For me, a small walker with ingenious mechanical solutions would be at least as awesome as a big, complex, Mindstorms based model. However, I would still love to see models from both of these categories, including everything in between.

[RiGi]

1 hour ago, SaperPL said:

Compare the 3rd place Forklift Transporter in TC20 to  @GerritvdG's 8835 - in both cases the challenging part was the forklift, while the transporter wasn't that hard to achieve apart from having parts. Moreover I feel like it was a winner for having built both models for side by side photo.

Care to elaborate on that last bit when there were at least fifteen other entries that also had side by side photos of both the original and remake, including @GerritvdG's 8835? And those side by side photos can work both for and against entries as they can highlight the differences between the models more clearly, as well as the similarities.

You also talk about newcomers being discouraged from entering again - TC20 was my first contest and first MOC. I had such an enjoyable time building my model and had no expectations of doing well in the contest, and I was incredibly proud that so many people liked it.  Having my entry singled out and insulted for no real reason actively discourages me from entering contests in future.

As I understand it, having fun is meant to be the main objective of these contests, something which seems to have gotten lost in some of these posts.

[pow]

7 minutes ago, RiGi said:

As I understand it, having fun is meant to be the main objective of these contests

...and also growing as a designer could be a reason.

Every person has it's reason to enter a contest. ...And to leave after the first try. It depends on ones personality maybe. Some people are heavily focused on winning and others just want to have fun. We can't change each other. Cheers.

12 hours ago, SaperPL said:

About Star Wars - I think you mean AT-AT

Yup, for example. I had something like an AT-TE in mind. https://rebrickable.com/sets/75337-1/at-te-walker/

 

I'm following the discussion to have a size limit or not:

May i ask a question? What means LARGE for a moc? Is it parts count? overall size? number and complexity of functions? parts value?

...You can use a lot of parts and have a mid sized MOC. You can use a few liftarms and you MOC becomes huge relatively easy. Or people with to much money could try to impress others with the newest and/or most expensive parts.

That's really meant as a question. How do we define large? Because we have to define it, before we are able to quantify a limit - if we decide that we want a limit. Am i wrong?

[howitzer]

2 hours ago, SaperPL said:

I meant things like this:

Where simply you can have long tractor to squeeze more functions in it, then there's a dolly that has some functionality for detaching the low part of the trailer and it has some mechanism to raise it, then you have the trailer which can have a long end that can fit a better mechanism for steering. The width though is the question whether the requirement is the scale or overall width of the truck, but still if the length is unlimited, there are various types of oversize load carriers that can be built with more bricks. Simple road train isn't exciting, but something like this can get you bonus scores and also if length is not a limit, then you can build the tractor that is twice as long as someone else's European style semi tractor.

That tractor is no longer than a typical truck, with trailers generally being pretty low on functions so not that impressive addition. Now if you load that tractor with an excavator (like in your example) or some other machinery that's complex and includes lots of functions in its own right, then you're doing a lot of additional work and that could very well be reflected on the score - but then it's about work involved, not about size. Also it's not that much more in terms of just bricks, anyone who owns something like four mid-large sets and can spare a few dozen euros on additional parts from Bricklink could build pretty large entry, provided they are willing to build in the colours they happen to have. And I bet vast majority of people considering entering have much much larger parts collections. In that sense if the size was really a winning factor, you'd expect that people would've noticed and started to enter with larger and larger builds but that's not the case - most entries are quite sensibly scaled.

Quote

Compare the 3rd place Forklift Transporter in TC20 to  @GerritvdG's 8835 - in both cases the challenging part was the forklift, while the transporter wasn't that hard to achieve apart from having parts. Moreover I feel like it was a winner for having built both models for side by side photo.

Your hovercraft was awesome as well with how you used the curved panels all over it. And there were more small to medium sized entries there that could've been on the podium.

My point is not that it's not fair that a bigger model being obviously more detailed and polished shouldn't win, but that the construction of competitions without specific size makes it so that picking smaller models is bound to end up outside of the podium and for newcomers it's going to be discouraging them from entering again. Having a specific size requirement means also not only what is your upper size limit, but also lets you know how big you need to build to be competitive. To checke whether this is actually true, I think we would have to check how many of newcomers stopped re-entering other contests after going small in their first and only contest and ask them about the reason why they never entered another contest.

Also in context of TC20, one 8880 was on 5th place while, and this is obviously just my subjective opinion, wasn't really that good, and it was just big and had many features that usually fit in supercars at this size. And in context of aesthetic quality, IMO your hovercraft and  @GerritvdG's forklift were better because they were less messy and in spirit of their original models.

In contrast to that, my studless 8816 model wasn't really a big thing to achieve because the original model was like "my first technic beams use" kind of 90 degree connected technic beams and it's only advanced technique was the fenders which in my model I got for free because of bent liftarms, so I don't have any problem with it being scored so low.

For me, I feel like it shouldn't be about who makes bigger thing with more functions, but if someone does something as you did with base of the hovercraft fitting so well that original base custom piece or how @Samolot put together panels on the tow truck body to modernize it, or figuring out whatever type of mechanism or shape in small size, is something that should be rewarded, but we're not going to get there if size and amount of functions being treated as awesomeness factor has significantly more weight than unique building techniques and solving problems. So I'd prefer contest with even ground because of that.

And why shouldn't the Forklift Transporter be ranked highly? It's a really faithful recreation of the set it's modelled after, and it was ranked highly by both, voters and the jury. I find it hard to believe that size had any relevance in the rankings, and rather it was well executed model which fit the criteria and theme of the contest precisely. The 8880 built by sebulba56 was similar in that the source model happened to be on the larger side but that's irrelevant, as the execution was really good, especially considering the original 8880 and it's body sculpted of many complex angles. Building such a thing is not easy while keeping all the functions and still making an instantly recognizable recreation and the place in top-10 is well deserved.

You make again and again the argument that large equals better ranking, but I have yet to see you provide any actual proof that this is the case beyond your subjective opinion. It's not about who makes the bigger thing with more functions - if it was we'd consistently see the largest entries being ranked highly and smallest in the lower end. But that's not what we see, instead there's a nice distribution of small, mid-size and large sets among the top scoring entries of contests, sometimes the top-3 also consists of sets on the smaller end like in TC24 Space Police Contest. So as I see it, the contests are already on as even ground as they can be, with more experienced builders generally getting better results. And that is as it should be.

 

 

[SaperPL]

57 minutes ago, RiGi said:

Care to elaborate on that last bit when there were at least fifteen other entries that also had side by side photos of both the original and remake, including @GerritvdG's 8835? And those side by side photos can work both for and against entries as they can highlight the differences between the models more clearly, as well as the similarities.

I'm talking about competitive edge, so when both models achieve let's say full scores on all other criteria and then what counts is build quality/some awesomeness factor. Here in context of this specific set being medium-large sized thanks to the truck which isn't really that complex model, it's just increasing the overall size and with two sets with two models each, you have perfect photo representing this contest. Yes, I wasn't clear on this. Most of the other entries side by side in one scene photo are either lower quality, so before I would consider this competitive edge of the size itself, or the photos are not the same quality. The only other entry in that contest that did the same thing (set with two sets/multiple models presented on a single quality photo) was the arctic rescue.

My point is that your winning forklift transport presented itself well on that comparison photo but IMO the entry itself wouldn't look that good if it was just the forklift comparison, and I don't think the truck was that challenging to build, and on top of that the ability to make that good comparison photo was thanks to having parts for the original model/having original model, which obviously doesn't have anything to do with skill or part of the challenge, but still this affected the awesomeness factor for this photo, I think.

57 minutes ago, RiGi said:

You also talk about newcomers being discouraged from entering again - TC20 was my first contest and first MOC. I had such an enjoyable time building my model and had no expectations of doing well in the contest, and I was incredibly proud that so many people liked it.  Having my entry singled out and insulted for no real reason actively discourages me from entering contests in future.

As I understand it, having fun is meant to be the main objective of these contests, something which seems to have gotten lost in some of these posts.

People have different focus when it comes to what is fun for them. For some it's to just have fun building as you said, for others it is about getting feedback and getting better in building itself. But there are people that want to take part in competition that makes sense for them and try getting better and taking part in the competition. But it needs to make sense to them for them to take part in it again...

3 minutes ago, howitzer said:

And why shouldn't the Forklift Transporter be ranked highly? It's a really faithful recreation of the set it's modelled after, and it was ranked highly by both, voters and the jury. I find it hard to believe that size had any relevance in the rankings, and rather it was well executed model which fit the criteria and theme of the contest precisely. The 8880 built by sebulba56 was similar in that the source model happened to be on the larger side but that's irrelevant, as the execution was really good, especially considering the original 8880 and it's body sculpted of many complex angles. Building such a thing is not easy while keeping all the functions and still making an instantly recognizable recreation and the place in top-10 is well deserved.

I didn't say it shouldn't be ranked highly - I said that bigger models effectively have competitive edge. Now explain to me, if for you it supposedly is all about precisely representing the original set model, why isn't my entry somewhere up there around the podium? If the core criteria for the contest was to remake the model as close as possible to the original one and size or amount of functions and parts shouldn't matter, then why not pick a $10 set or even a polybag set and recreate it? If such thing would be perfectly recreated, then should it be on the podium or not? Here is where this competitive edge comes into play because simply bigger model will have more room for that awesomeness over just base criteria of representing the original model perfectly.

And for the record, the if you compare the transporter to @Samolot's tow truck and read the explanation why the tow truck wasn't on the podium, you will see that according to the explanation, the forklift transporter wasn't perfect either - Samolot's tow truck used panels where applicable and closed two instances of the same gap on the sides, and the transporter did close the roof of the tractor cab and used panels on the forklift so there's something not adding up here.

[msk6003]

3 hours ago, SaperPL said:

if for you it supposedly is all about precisely representing the original set model, why isn't my entry somewhere up there around the podium?

About that I also feel depressed. I kept 100% of all the features of the original model also with engines and steering systems which is typical in modern technic sets into an almost 1:1 scale model.

@howitzer Anyway are you have instruction of that hovercraft? It looks very awesome and make me want to built it.

[Lipko]

All these stuff should be in a separate "jury voting contest debate" or "TC20/TC25 restrospective" threads, because this general contest thread is essentially destroyed by all these whatever

[Jim]

23 minutes ago, Lipko said:

All these stuff should be in a separate "jury voting contest debate" or "TC20/TC25 restrospective" threads, because this general contest thread is essentially destroyed by all these whatever

Good point. It's time to end the voting debate. Has been going on for far too long. I suggest that the people who feel depressed create a PM conversation (or a different topic) where they can discuss their feelings, contest results, voting criteria and what not.
(I can split some posts into a new topic if you like)

WE END THE CONTEST VOTING DEBATE HERE.

Next contest we will try an entirely different thing for voting anyway.

[SaperPL]

Content removed by Jim

[Mikdun]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:45 AM, pow said:

Why not building something that walks with legs and has steering a.k.a can change direction.

I second that! 

[SaperPL]

5 hours ago, Jim said:

Good point. It's time to end the voting debate. Has been going on for far too long. I suggest that the people who feel depressed create a PM conversation (or a different topic) where they can discuss their feelings, contest results, voting criteria and what not.
(I can split some posts into a new topic if you like)

The separate topic for that is a good idea, but the discussion about rules will keep coming up again and again if we're going to discuss ideas for following contests, so potentially it will need to be moderated/moved into that topic each time it happens here.

[Jim]

41 minutes ago, SaperPL said:

so potentially it will need to be moderated

Minus potentially.

41 minutes ago, SaperPL said:

it will need to be moved into that topic each time it happens here.

Most of our members know which discussion belongs in which topic. 

[msk6003]

@Jim It seems to need lock contest index post. Anyone can write something on there. And how about add this topic also in contest index?

[Jim]

Will do. Thanks

[Jim]

On 10/4/2023 at 5:40 PM, msk6003 said:

@Jim It seems to need lock contest index post. Anyone can write something on there. And how about add this topic also in contest index?

Done!

[Jim]

I am working on the new contest. I aim to have it up-and-running before my holiday, starting next Wednesday. After that I won't be online for the next four weeks, to avoid answering any questions you might have  

[Ngoc Nguyen]

Meanwhile I'm still polishing my TC25 entries 

[Seasider]

Yay new contest in coming ! I may finally be able to find some time and enthusiasm to complete an entry!