Technic 2023 Set Discussion

[Erik Leppen]

2 hours ago, Maaboo35 said:

TLG needs to learn that bigger is not better. The Liebherr crane seems to be a case in point on that front.

Have you seen the crane? As far as I know, there haven't been images around, or did I miss something?

I'm asking, because if you haven't seen it, you cannot comment on whether it's better or not (and you're much better off taking your example from the plethora of sets we know how they look and work - because there are plenty. The 10303 roller coaster for example.). For all we know the new crane will be fantastic. For example, 42082 was a really nice set. It's big, but the size is justified by all the gearing and function switching going on inside. There wasn't much empty space. Who knows what the crane will be able to do. I really understand the appeal of size, @Jundis. I too liked the BWE 42055 or the huge 42100 Liebherr digger (even though I can't justify the price and don't care for electronics). I just don't understand the appeal of size alone, so if someone could explain that :)

Sorry @ moderators by the way if this is hijacking the thread. (But we don't have much info anyway, so it's either speculation or discussion :) )

[Maaboo the Witch]

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

Have you seen the crane? As far as I know, there haven't been images around, or did I miss something?

No, but the Promobricks article quoted on Page 3 implies that the set has been downsized and that it was delayed because its size presented a problem.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Maaboo35

[suffocation]

10 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

The best Technic sets are those that are not bigger than needed to host their functions.

This, one thousand times over.

[SpEP2]

When I first saw 42156 described as a vehicle and its price, I got excited that we might finaly get a proper fire truck/fire engine. A lot of MOCs out there showing it can be done and that it would nicely fit in with the rest of the trucks.

Take Fire Truck MOC from time-hh on rebrickable for example. I think that it's showing great potential at this scale and the model could also include some "accessories", like 42139s chainsaw. The jaws of life maybe...

The gearbox could be integrated in such set. Controling outriggers, ladder (extension and rotation) and turntable all from one input. Maybe even some panel "doors" to show the equipment and the details.

[Danil]

looking at the latest trends in the appearance of new parts (in the last couple of years, as many new ones have been released as in the previous 10 years!) makes me think that it is time for TLG to rewrite its policy - eliminating the word "children" altogether!😁😁😁 TLG prices are more it looks like I will give my Panamera to my son for games!😁😁😁 Lego really was a brand of toys of childhood and happiness - now it is no different from the usual scheme - "just business, nothing personal!"😁😁😁 this world has long been time to format. consumer society has no right to life.😁😁😁

[GoldVillage]

On 8/26/2022 at 8:23 PM, Jundis said:

Ha! I knew it!

The rest... Cars Cars Cars... 

Yeah ofcourse!  its the direction they taken... 2020 was bad enough but i said 21 was going to be even worse (it was) and 22 was going to be worse than 21 (it was) and 23 was going to be worse than 22 (it will) so now we only getting ONE useful construction set (the mini sets and the polybag shouldnt even be counted)

2024 will be easy to predict: bike, boat, car, car, car, car, car, car, car, car, car, car, aircraft

[GerritvdG]

This is a still from Youtube BriQ Foundation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4-HLLeXja4

Not sure if this is the real 42151, but didn't find this image elsewhere...

I don't think this is the real 42151, to much parts for a $50 set...

Edited September 3, 2022 by GerritvdG

[1gor]

...an it looks to big...

[LvdH]

That’s not a LEGO set, and the LEGO version will be yellow and black. 

Just an fyi: Ignore this guy and his channel. He’s doing everything for the clicks including blatantly misleading everyone.

[howitzer]

Even on the scale of empty shell cars that would have to be really, really empty to be that big for the price. Also, I don't think TLG would put stickers across multiple parts (like the corss-decorations on the front corners seem to be).

[GerritvdG]

Just now, LvdH said:

That’s not a LEGO set, and the LEGO version will be yellow and black. 

Just an fyi: Ignore this guy and his channel. He’s doing everything for the clicks including blatantly misleading everyone.

You're right, found this Bugatti on AliExpress, never mind. Misleading information indeed without any background.

[Maaboo the Witch]

I'm thinking that the dump truck might be something like the one from 8433 (lower left).

[Jundis]

5 hours ago, Maaboo35 said:

I'm thinking that the dump truck might be something like the one from 8433 (lower left).

Quite right, I think of basic functions of steering and tipping of the dump bed. Sadly, bigger wheels or even twin rear tire would not be possible in this scale. My bet would be on a white coloured one, like the Liebherr.

[Gimmick]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:15 AM, kbalage said:

These sets use Technic parts only because you can build bigger models with way less parts compared to a System-only approach.

To me it seems more like the way to go from 8880 and 8461, 8674, 8145 without completely reinventing the style after switching to beams instead of technic bricks (was Technic, stays Technic! xD). So they tried it, people liked it, they did more of it.

On 8/28/2022 at 10:13 PM, Saberwing40k said:

This is my exact sentiment. If looks focused cars made out of Technic parts are that popular, just bring back Racers.

Speedchampions are basically Racers and they do it well, don't touch it. Removing cars from Technic would simply result in less Technic-Sets anyway - and the remaining sets would still include sets like buggies, quads, karts...

On 8/29/2022 at 12:48 PM, Erik Leppen said:

Reasons I can think of why anyone would want the large Technic one, are

• it has suspension and a fake engine
• to re-use the pieces
• as a base for modding or moccing

Maybe I'm an outlier, but to me, "big" is mostly a negative property.

 

On 8/29/2022 at 3:46 PM, Erik Leppen said:

 I just don't understand the appeal of size alone, so if someone could explain that :)

 

if I may give it a try But a discalimer at first: I do not think the size of a model alone is appealing. But I like some models, that others think their only accomplishment is the size :D

I agree to the quoted points. Large sets cause problems and they are not easy to handle (transport, storage,... ). But I appreciate some kind of reasonable scale in terms of actually play-features, some neccessary details (like fake engine as you said) and relation between models.

That means:

A tower crane has to be a tower, eventhough the tower itself is not a function.

If you have multiple excavators, trucks,... , the larger/largest versions should actually be larger.

If a model needs big wheels (can be a fantasy or scifi set, like M-Tron or Arctic) the scale grows, eventhough it's basically empty.

Larger models can sometimes interact better with other things outside of the Lego world

Details like a fake engine do realy improve the "completeness" of a model for me

Making larger models work is some kind of satisfying challange.

 

Examples (all subjective):

Upcoming Liebherr crane: If the model will not be THAT tall, they should change the name, so it won't be to small in relation.

42082: Could be smaller.

42055: Has to be large, because it is what it is. Same goes for the 42100.

42114: Could be smaller, but maybe I'm wrong and it's not realy possible without removing some features. It mainly has a huge dump bed - which is great for transporting a lot of other non-lego-stuff ;)

42131: Could be a bit more narrow, but the tractor itself, which contains all functions, is not that big therefore not sure here either.

42030: Good size for playability. (the body is bigger than the 42131 tractor I think? Oo)

Titanic: I don't own this model and I don't realy care about it, but a small Titanic seems wrong.

Sounds like some models suffer from small mainstructures with some huge attachements xD

And I actually do not care very much about design-details, so the correct amount of lights, stairs or tracks is not a benfit of scale for me.

If someone does not "need" a fake engine or some kind of scaling, smaller models would fit his preferences better of course. Maybe sometimes removing details or functions...is the right thing to  improve other properties - I would call it "personal preference optimized".

[2GodBDGlory]

On 8/28/2022 at 3:13 PM, Saberwing40k said:

This is my exact sentiment. If looks focused cars made out of Technic parts are that popular, just bring back Racers

I get the sentiment from a Technic fan's point of view, but I don't think it makes sense from a business standpoint, as usual. After all, if you rebranded all these cars as "Racers," the adults they're marketing to would feel like it's just a toy, while as long as they remain under the Technic name, it maintains more credibility through association with the actually functional Technic sets, of the past and present. It's kind of a cheap tactic to make the sets sound more impressive than they are, but I think it must be an effective one (in the short term, at least--the strategy could eventually destroy the "prestige" of Technic). Because of that, I don't think it would make sense for them to go back to that designation, convenient as it would be for us to help separate the meat from the fluff!

[howitzer]

Long ago there was a division of Technic Play and Technic Build, with the former being simple models of young/unskilled builders and the latter for older/skilled ones. Of course Technic looked very different back then and this distinction was probably dropped for a reason, but still makes one wonder if something like that would help with the current situation where majority of Technic sets are Technic in name only...

[SpEP2]

On 9/4/2022 at 7:06 PM, Gimmick said:

42114: Could be smaller, but maybe I'm wrong and it's not realy possible without removing some features. It mainly has a huge dump bed - which is great for transporting a lot of other non-lego-stuff ;)

I recently built this set and I don't think it could be smaller for two reasons.

• The gearbox filled most of the space between rear wheels. With the motors and the differential distributing the power to front and rear wheels most of the space was filled.
• It feels like the set was scaled to the big tires they already had.

I would say the set was lacking in power compared to it's size, but that's not the topic for this thread.

[kbalage]

On 9/4/2022 at 7:06 PM, Gimmick said:

To me it seems more like the way to go from 8880 and 8461, 8674, 8145 without completely reinventing the style after switching to beams instead of technic bricks (was Technic, stays Technic! xD). So they tried it, people liked it, they did more of it.

It's interesting to bring sets from the Racers theme as the "ascendants" of the current Technic cars, because that's exactly what they are supposed to be :) 

On 9/4/2022 at 7:06 PM, Gimmick said:

Speedchampions are basically Racers and they do it well, don't touch it. Removing cars from Technic would simply result in less Technic-Sets anyway - and the remaining sets would still include sets like buggies, quads, karts...

I have to disagree a bit here. I think Racers was primarily a play theme, except for a few larger-scale Creator Expert-style branded cars. Speed Champions used to be a play theme as well, but after the change to 8 stud wide it became the miniature and more affordable version of the Creator Expert cars, focusing on maximum realism at this scale and funky building techniques. But you are right, it should be left as is, the approach and the cars are brilliant.

Regarding Technic's heavy shift towards cars, especially branded cars with minimal technical features, I think this is where the Racers theme or something similar would require a comeback. The reason is simple, usually about a dozen of Technic sets are released each year, and with the current proportions there's very little space left for non-car machines with interesting functions. There's definitely a need on the market for these cars otherwise they wouldn't focus on them this much, but if e.g. half of the 2022 lineup would have been released as Racers, then Technic fans could have received other, more technical sets as well. This of course would require additional resources on the designers' side, but I'm sure people would like it. 

Edit - an additional thought about the set sizes, there are Technic sets for sure where the size is justified. The problem is with sets where the exact same functionality could have been squeezed in a much smaller form factor, or there's tons of space left for additional functions at this scale. The CAT bulldozer is a great example for the first one, and for the latter there are almost all ~1:10 scale branded cars.

[Gimmick]

51 minutes ago, kbalage said:

It's interesting to bring sets from the Racers theme as the "ascendants" of the current Technic cars, because that's exactly what they are supposed to be :) 

I have to disagree a bit here. I think Racers was primarily a play theme, except for a few larger-scale Creator Expert-style branded cars. Speed Champions used to be a play theme as well, but after the change to 8 stud wide it became the miniature and more affordable version of the Creator Expert cars, focusing on maximum realism at this scale and funky building techniques. But you are right, it should be left as is, the approach and the cars are brilliant.

 

Yes of course. The cars moved from Technic to Racers and back to Technic. Moving Mindstorms back to Technic would be fine, too. It's only about labels and sorting things. Is a model "Racers" because it's a car or "Technic" because it's basically Technic only in the shape of a car...You can put every car into Racers or split it becaue of different build styles....or by "intention of use", so some "Technic" cars would be Racers, others "Technic"... I don't see "the one solution above all" here. I would simply check how diverse the complete catalog is and from my perspective: the ~$40-100 range misses at least one model, that is not a car. :D

51 minutes ago, kbalage said:

[...] but if e.g. half of the 2022 lineup would have been released as Racers, then Technic fans could have received other, more technical sets as well. This of course would require additional resources on the designers' side, but I'm sure people would like it. 

Edit - an additional thought about the set sizes, there are Technic sets for sure where the size is justified. The problem is with sets where the exact same functionality could have been squeezed in a much smaller form factor, or there's tons of space left for additional functions at this scale. The CAT bulldozer is a great example for the first one, and for the latter there are almost all ~1:10 scale branded cars.

If they would hire more designers, they could simply create more Technic sets without removing the cars. More sets in total is a delicate issue currently ;)

@ Your edit

"Exact same function" -> that's the point. If you only call the final result in movement "a function" a lot of sets are overengineered as f****. The gearbox in 42043, 42055 or 42082? Completely useless. Adding a second battery box + motor (or even motors) in the base of the crane (or bucket wheel excavator) would save so much parts and reduce complexity and improve playability.... and so on.  At some point those solutions are always self motivated or "the solution and problem are the same". If I take a look at the 42030 I would say: No, you cannot make the tractor of the cat significant smaller, without building a completely different model. Can you make a smaller tractor with similar movements in general? Yes of course. Even a very small dozer with only three motors (tracked car with shield :D) would be realy great I think. Every solution has its objective pros and cons, the subjective preference can everyone chose as he likes. I like the compact "control center" of the 42055, even though it drives like.... :D

[Jundis]

5 hours ago, Gimmick said:

If they would hire more designers, they could simply create more Technic sets without removing the cars. More sets in total is a delicate issue currently ;) 

Hmm I think there are around 6-8 (?) Lego technic designers. Considering 12-16 models per year means 2 models per designer. This doesn't sound like too big of a challenge. All the stuff after the real building is way more challenging, I am not sure how much they are involved in the instructions and so on...

I think the market and the managers tell em what to do, not really what they would really wanted to build... then we would have many more models to the liking of more hard-core technic fans.

As Jan Ryaa and Sten Schmidt left in 2021, current designers I am aware of are:

- Markus Kossmann
- Uwe Wabra
- Milan Reindl
- Samuel Tacchi
- Aurelien Rouffiange

[Maaboo the Witch]

20 minutes ago, Jundis said:

As Jan Ryaa and Sten Schmidt left in 2021, current designers I am aware of are:

- Markus Kossmann
- Uwe Wabra
- Milan Reindl
- Samuel Tacchi
- Aurelien Rouffiange

There's also Michael Jeppesen, Luke Cragin, and Kasper Rene Hansen. Oh, and the guy who designs the Monster Jam trucks is a new hire as well - it might be Hansen, I'm not sure though.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Maaboo35

[Jundis]

19 minutes ago, Maaboo35 said:

There's also Michael Jeppesen, Luke Cragin, and Kasper Rene Hansen. Oh, and the guy who designs the Monster Jam trucks is a new hire as well - it might be Hansen, I'm not sure though.

Thanks! I found Lars Krogh Jensen, he designed the 42125, together with Milan. So we have 9 designers we know of :-)

Edited September 6, 2022 by Jundis

[Jeroen Ottens]

2 hours ago, Jundis said:

Hmm I think there are around 6-8 (?) Lego technic designers. Considering 12-16 models per year means 2 models per designer. This doesn't sound like too big of a challenge. All the stuff after the real building is way more challenging, I am not sure how much they are involved in the instructions and so on...

I think the market and the managers tell em what to do, not really what they would really wanted to build... then we would have many more models to the liking of more hard-core technic fans.

As Jan Ryaa and Sten Schmidt left in 2021, current designers I am aware of are:

- Markus Kossmann
- Uwe Wabra
- Milan Reindl
- Samuel Tacchi
- Aurelien Rouffiange

When I worked there we did about one (flagship) model per year with two designers. Don't underestimate the number of iterations required to meet all the requirements that need to be met. I've made literally hundreds of variations of the same model to get it perfect. Of course my experience is now nearly 25 year old, so I would expect that things work differently now.

[gyenesvi]

About all those car sets: I am not so much into them in their current form, but I do acknowledge that they sell, so it makes sense from a business standpoint. What I was wondering if the lineup could actually be more technic-like while still having a similar appeal for buyers. I believe that there is kind of a missed opportunity here, because Lego focuses on sports cars mainly, with only minimal focus on off-roaders (we might get a decent one every 1-2 years and some smaller ones every year). I believe putting more emphasis on licensed off-roader passenger cars could be beneficial for multiple reasons:

- People do like real-world off-roader passenger cars or even pickups, not sure if as much as sports cars, but still a lot I'd say. They're kind of manly. Off-roader category seems to be the most popular one in RC races as well, with many such entries, as there's a lot of challenge in it. What do you think?

- Off-roaders present opportunities for much more technical stuff than sports cars. They often need more sophisticated suspensions, an area in which technic is lacking and could improve a lot with new parts (joints, links, leaf springs etc in various sizes), and drivetrains, such as diff locking, RWD/FWD/AWD switching, or a simple hi/lo gearbox that has a meaningful gear ratio (at least 2x), just to mention a few that are complicated or not possible to build today.

So I believe such licensed, real-world off-roader cars would kind of combine the pros of both ends: appeal to people, and opportunities for technicalities. I'd love to see a lineup of 1:10 scale classic off-roaders (similar idea to the lineup of 1:8 sports cars, brands like Jeeps, Land Rovers, Toyotas, etc). I do think that it would sell, and could actually contain many technicalities that satisfy us as well. I could even imagine a lineup of mid-scale off-roaders, as those are really popular as MOCs (something like 60-70 mm wheels and 15-stud-wide bodies). Even the shapes of off-roaders are typically better fits for technic paneling than crazy shaped sports cars.

I don't understand why this category or cars does not have more representatives, just 1-2 every year. Any ideas? I guess the Land Rover and the Ford Raptor would count as good examples here (maybe the Jeep for the smaller scale), but those are also lacking on the technical side, as they did not introduce anything fundamentally new. But the Land Rover is immensely popular.

[kbalage]

1 hour ago, gyenesvi said:

I don't understand why this category or cars does not have more representatives, just 1-2 every year. Any ideas? I guess the Land Rover and the Ford Raptor would count as good examples here (maybe the Jeep for the smaller scale), but those are also lacking on the technical side, as they did not introduce anything fundamentally new. But the Land Rover is immensely popular.

I think despite its popularity, the Defender is not considered to be a success in LEGO's records. It generated many customer complaints, and although the company tried to apply some fixes (the U-joint realignment in the manual), de cracking issue could not be resolved without a fundamental redesign that never happened for obvious reasons. 

Since the Defender all non-RC licensed "off-roader" releases were highly simplified, and apparently the target audience does not really care about it. The Jeep is simple mostly due to its scale (although the ATV have way more features at a similar scale), and the Ford Raptor has really no excuses of being RWD only. As I see TLG is targeting the licensed Technic vehicles to the broadest audience possible, which means they only have a very minimal amount of functions. Anything more complex for Technic enthusiasts is either unlicensed or remote controlled. The only exception I've seen recently is the Airbus Helicopter, although that one being licensed seems to be an afterthought, the main reason might be the need of having "something licensed that flies" after the cancellation of the Osprey.