Bionicle 2015 Discussion

[Mesonak]

Not sure why people are saying non-humanoid builds prioritize functions over poseabiltiy when there are literally only two sets that even go towards supporting that point adequately: LoSS and Skull Scorpio. Or stating that as if poseabiltiy and functions were mutually exclusive. Or as if functions were a bad thing? Then saying they'd rather have humanoids, and of course, when that actually happens, they'll complain there are too many humanoids.

If you want sets to be truly creative, we must stop stifling creativity by saying 'functions bad poseabiltiy good' as if the two were mutually exclusive. LoSS is a heck of a lot more memorable than any Savage Planet set. Newsflash: Designers don't make sets to appease you. They make it for their audience: children. I would wager that kids generally find functions 'cool' and 'unusual' since poseability isn't a function and it's a lot quicker, a lot more entertaining than posing.

Considering that the "two sets that even go towards supporting that point adequately" are literally the only non-humanoid sets we've gotten thus far in BIONICLE, I think it's more than fair to believe such a thing until an exception to the rule exists.

The simple fact of the matter is that history has shown functions and poseability tend to be mutually exclusive. They clash often, and tend to be at odds with each other; the advent of BIONICLE's shift into more poseable figures, after all, came directly in conjunction with the disappearance of traditional functions. The single greatest innovation that BIONICLE 2015 has made is the ability to reconcile both of them and have the best attributes of both. The Toa, Skull Villains, and Ekimu all personify this wonderfully. The two non-humanoid sets, however, do not. The reason why LoSS and Skull Scorpio are frowned upon by many is because the designers' need to include a function is detrimental to both the appearance AND poseability of the sets.

LoSS and Scorpio sacrifice both playability and appearance for their functions. LoSS has as much articulation as Nui Jaga, a set released 15 years ago, and Scorpio has literally no articulation in his legs. LoSS suffers from a gappy construction, limited play value, and a small stature; Scorpio's biggest flaw, personally, is the giant abomination of a tail which distracts from the overall appearance of the set.

Let me make this clear: I do not dislike LoSS or Scorpio. In fact, subjectively speaking, LoSS is probably my favorite set from the first wave and by no means do I think Scorpio is a bad set. I can appreciate the work that went into their functions because I enjoy complex and creative builds/designs. I don't play with my sets often, so the limited articulation doesn't even really affect me personally. It's inexcusable, however, for non-humanoids to have to choose between poseability or functions when literally every humanoid character can balance the two perfectly.

The Masters, Protectors, and Skull villains have displayed that Lego is perfectly capable of making sets which can handle both aspects of design. I understand things like parts count limitations are probably to blame for certain aspects of LoSS and Scorpio's designs, but that doesn't make the flaws invalid.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Mesonak

[dviddy]

@Scarilian: lol. You desperately want the last word, so I guess you can have it.

Somewhat off topic, but Clarke's Third Law states that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I feel that this law applies perfectly to Bionicle.

It definitely applied to the latter few years of the first series, but I desperately, desperately hope the new series doesn't take this route too. The turn from more fantasy to sci-fi the line took over the last few years was really disappointing to me. It just felt like Greg preferred sci-fi to fantasy, and it often seemed pretty forced, regardless of the "living in a giant robot" thing having been planned from the beginning. Technology and magic can co-exist pretty well (the original Star Wars films version of the Force is basically just magic, after all. Alternatively, The Legend of Korra). I'd rather not have that massive tonal shift this time. I want the magic to be just that- unexplainable mystic forces. Just my personal taste at play, though, and I certainly recognize that. The latter years of the story just always seemed so disconnected form the first three, and that shift always seemed like one of the biggest reasons.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Darth Vader

[Ikaatril]

Considering that the "two sets that even go towards supporting that point adequately" are literally the only non-humanoid sets we've gotten thus far in BIONICLE, I think it's more than fair to believe such a thing until an exception to the rule exists.

Okay, why is HF suddenly irrelevant? For convenience? Are the designers of HF and Bionicle suddenly magically mutually exclusive now? Tunneler Beast was non humanoid and did not have a function.

LoSS suffers from a gappy construction, limited play value, and a small stature

1. No, it doesn't. It's nowhwere near as bad as you exaggerate it. 2. No, it doesn't. 3. No, it doesn't. Height =/= length and width. It's about as long as Pohatu and Onua are tall. Height does not mean anything. LoSS is equal in pricing to the smaller Toa, if you were expecting something as large as the titans of years past then you will be sorely disappointed, because LoSS isn't one. It hardly has a small stature.

It's inexcusable, however, for non-humanoids to have to choose between poseability or functions when literally every humanoid character can balance the two perfectly.

I understand things like parts count limitations are probably to blame for certain aspects of LoSS and Scorpio's designs

Do you really, then? You do not design sets - sets are not MoCs - and you claim to understand, yet you say it's inexcusable without taking pricing into account. In fact, LoSS has the most pieces of the smaller 'canisters', and Skull Scorpio is tied with Skull Warrior of the summer 'canisters'.

[Mandate]

@Ikaatril LOSS doesn't have limited play value? All it has is a grab function, in the long run it's just an elaborate and expensive Happy Meal toy.

LOSS has more parts than a Toa, yet is awful in comparison. He suffers from a lack of play value - his mask doesn't do anything, he's puny in comparison to even the smallest of Toa, and he doesn't even have articulation to back it up. The Toa have gearbox functions yet still allow their arms a full range of motion independent of the gearbox, the Toa have dual-weaponry, the Toa have Golden Masks they can actually wear, and the Toa are just plain awesome in general. LOSS has no excuse other than his price limit, a $20 price tag would have allowed proper leg posing (and no added cost to recolored parts, the trans-orange legs wouldn't exist, and the shells can still be attached) and a less gappy construction. And Scorpio? Don't even get me started.

Anyway, bought Kopaka today. Instantly my favorite Toa of the wave, I have yet to pick up Gali, Pohatu or their respective Protectors yet. PoI is awesome, glad I bought him with Kopaka.

[TheOneVeyronian]

A lot of hate has suddenly risen up about LOSS again, so I better add what I think. Sure, LOSS isn't the best model in the world, but in my opinion it hass got one of the most entertaining builds of the Winter sets (bbut that's just me, I enjoy Technic-oriented models). And yes, the model does lack the poseability factor I really love, but it's really easy to fix with just 24 more (common) parts whilst keeping it's sole function in tact. And yes, it only has one function, but it's a well built function in my opinion. I do have some thoughts on Scorpio also, but I'm a little rushed for time right now...

All I'm saying is that if you don't like it, modify it (or just leave it on the shelf I guess). After all, that's what LEGO is surely all about at the end of the day?

[GK733]

A lot of hate has suddenly risen up about LOSS again, so I better add what I think. Sure, LOSS isn't the best model in the world, but in my opinion it hass got one of the most entertaining builds of the Winter sets (bbut that's just me, I enjoy Technic-oriented models). And yes, the model does lack the poseability factor I really love, but it's really easy to fix with just 24 more (common) parts whilst keeping it's sole function in tact. And yes, it only has one function, but it's a well built function in my opinion. I do have some thoughts on Scorpio also, but I'm a little rushed for time right now...

All I'm saying is that if you don't like it, modify it (or just leave it on the shelf I guess). After all, that's what LEGO is surely all about at the end of the day?

The largest problem I found with it was it might be too complicated for younger builders. At least the part when it's all wobbly and you have to hold it together with your hands so it doesn't break apart to attach the axle. doesn't help the gears are in wrong angle in the instructions

I somehow managed to attach the rubberband wrong too.

Last time I remember doing something as complicated and actually hard was with Axalara t9, even Nebula gave me less problems. Sure Witch doctor was irritating but not that hard to build at somepoints because you had to smash the axles trough multiple balljoints with hard pressure. I just smacked them against my table.

[Ikaatril]

On my phone so I'll keep this short, but LoSS is not puny if you actually bothered to compare it to Pohatu. Height is not a valid measurement among modern sets.

[Mandate]

On my phone so I'll keep this short, but LoSS is not puny if you actually bothered to compare it to Pohatu. Height is not a valid measurement among modern sets.

Puny

[Pyoo-nee]

Adjective, punier, puniest.

1. of less than normal size and strength; weak

2. unimportant; insignificant; petty or minor

"A puny excuse."

3. Obsolete, puisne

From here

Take your pick.

[Lyichir]

Puny

[Pyoo-nee]

Adjective, punier, puniest.

1. of less than normal size and strength; weak

2. unimportant; insignificant; petty or minor

"A puny excuse."

3. Obsolete, puisne

From here

Take your pick.

I would say that Lord of Skull Spiders is anything BUT puny. He may take up less space than the $20 sets purely in terms of volume, but his overall size with his legs spread out easily rivals Onua, the largest figure this year (and he can wrap those legs around Onua with no problems). He's easily a match for the Toa, particularly seeing as his modus operandi seems to involve picking them off one by one.

Frankly, I wonder what people were WANTED LoSS to be like. Perhaps they hoped for him to dwarf the Toa like an AT-AT such that the six Toa would have to each focus on one leg? I can't see him being anything other than comical at a much larger scale.

As for poseability... again, a fully-articulated spider at that scale is ridiculously hard to pose. One point of articulation per leg is plenty considering his need to support his own weight and the difficulty of balancing a six-legged model when the legs won't stay put.

[Kalhiki]

Yeah, I really like LOSS. He may not be super poseable, but he doesn't have to be. He's fun to play with and he looks cool. That's all I really care about.

Scorpio doesn't look as great, but I feel that giving him leg articulation (as great as that would be) would put him over budget. And much like LOSS, his function looks like fun, so I can see him being an enjoyable figure in that regard.

[MakutaDreadscythe]

$30 LoSS with Pewku legs and web shooter.

Solves the articulation issue, front legs can be posed, back legs move automatically so kids can drive him.

Anyone wanna make this?

[DraikNova]

LoSS is more-or-less okay in my book, because he doesn't suffer from the gappiness that I've seen a lot in Technic-based models, and the function is okay. Skull Scorpio has a nice tail function, but the aesthetics seem mediocre, and I can't see a way to fix such a thing without putting him in a higher price bracket (a $25 or $30 price point would allow for an all-round great set, I think*); if I had been on the design team, I would have decided to forgo the non-humanoid design, and if the scorpion theme was a required element, just make him an improved version of the Vorox: skull head, stinger tail and six arms, with two pairs of them being small and rudimentary.

*I think I could probably MOC this, and fit in a Nui-Jaga homage while I'm at it, too.

Edited March 3, 2015 by DraikNova

[TheOneVeyronian]

And some thoughts about Scorpio now: I think he's probably slightly weaker than LOSS in terms of articulation in the legs (the pincers are fine in that regard). I'll probably end up removing the current legs entirely and replacing with either normal bones or "bone" bone pieces (whichever looks better). The function is the best thing about it, but I don't know - it still leaves me wanting more. Though it has inspired me to create a CCBS scorpion with both a lashing tail function and a grabbing/striking out claws function (separate from each other). Though I don't really have a lot of knowledge about Technic, I don't even have a semi-plentiful stock of Technic in my MOC'ing trays, so I wouldn't know where to start with incorporating both those functions into such a model.

[AyliffeMakit]

On my phone so I'll keep this short, but LoSS is not puny if you actually bothered to compare it to Pohatu. Height is not a valid measurement among modern sets.

For some reason I read this as "not pony" instead of "not puny".

#BonklesMLPCrossoverConfirmed

[Mesonak]

Okay, why is HF suddenly irrelevant? For convenience? Are the designers of HF and Bionicle suddenly magically mutually exclusive now? Tunneler Beast was non humanoid and did not have a function.

Not once in my post did I bring up HF, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about. I'm drawing comparisons strictly between LoSS/Scorpio and the rest of the sets in 2015 BIONICLE that have managed to incorporate functions successfully. If you want to pull HF into the mix, then yes, sets like Tunneler Beast and Thornraxx are prime examples of how non-humanoid sets with creative builds can be made without the need of functions. Heck, you can also take a look at Dragon Bolt, a set which featured superb poseability and a creative function to boot. It's not like Lego's incapable of doing this.

1. No, it doesn't. It's nowhwere near as bad as you exaggerate it. 2. No, it doesn't. 3. No, it doesn't. Height =/= length and width. It's about as long as Pohatu and Onua are tall. Height does not mean anything. LoSS is equal in pricing to the smaller Toa, if you were expecting something as large as the titans of years past then you will be sorely disappointed, because LoSS isn't one. It hardly has a small stature.

I think others pretty much summed up my thoughts on this so I won't rehash too much. It does indeed mean something when this is supposed to be the primary villain for wave one (and yes, I'm aware, he's really just a glorified servant). There's a reason, after all, why they increased his size to such a large degree in the animations and the Mask of Creation game; like it or not, he is supposed to be a fearsome enough foe to stand a chance against all six Toa. The way he is in set form, however... he could maybe take on a couple of Protectors, at best. Also, yes, lack of poseability, by definition, creates limited play value in comparison to sets like the Toa who have both. I won't bother arguing gappy construction because that's a subjective flaw, really.

Do you really, then? You do not design sets - sets are not MoCs - and you claim to understand, yet you say it's inexcusable without taking pricing into account. In fact, LoSS has the most pieces of the smaller 'canisters', and Skull Scorpio is tied with Skull Warrior of the summer 'canisters'.

As I said earlier, just because I recognize these things as being possible causes of the problem does not excuse the flaws the sets have. I'm pretty positive they made LoSS how he is because they didn't want to upscale the set to $20; same with Skull Scorpio. Having a weaker set that just so happens to be cheaper, however, doesn't make their issues invalid. That isn't even a factor I really need to consider in appraising whether a set is good or not. :P

Edited March 3, 2015 by Mesonak

[Leewan]

Just saw this in the April Store Calendar for the US :

I hope other countries will benefit from this offer.

[Kalhiki]

Heck, you can also take a look at Dragon Bolt, a set which featured superb poseability and a creative function to boot. It's not like Lego's incapable of doing this.

Wait. Dragon Bolt.

Pretty sure that's how they'll be doing Basher's function. Or something similar, at least. Unless I missed some toyfair photo that proves otherwise.

[TheDesuComplex]

Wait. Dragon Bolt.

Pretty sure that's how they'll be doing Basher's function. Or something similar, at least. Unless I missed some toyfair photo that proves otherwise.

Yup, it's pretty much the same mechanism. It's a very smart idea, and I am hoping that Basher includes a rubber band like Bolt (which I bet he will).

[Dorek]

Just saw this in the April Store Calendar for the US :

I hope other countries will benefit from this offer.

Man, they always put those things up right after I think to check for them =P.

Interesting choices... too bad I don't need either of those. Oh well.

[arc]

The only two new bionicle sets I've purchased so far. Figures right?

But I don't have a VIP account anyway, so no matter. Although I wonder why they chose these two. I hope it's not because they're not selling, because these are some of my favorite designs.

[Phoenix_Flare]

Oh, I forgot to mention this on Sunday: When I went to the Chandler Mall LEGO Store, I met another Bionicle fan! I think he was the same age, not sure though. We where talking about bonkle/HF stuff briefly. Man, it's so awesome when you find another person who likes similar things.

I hope that he's on here; maybe we can talk more...

BTW I wish that there would be a LEGO Convention (I wanna show my MOCs!) here that would be cool but I guess Phx Comicon is good enough.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Phoenix_Flare

[Clone 01354 Productions]

I actually love LOSS, so I don't understand all the hate for him. Is he small? In comparison to the Toa, yes. Put he's still pretty large compared to a Protector (which makes sense if you think about it. LOSS was expected, in the story, to guard the ancient city from the villagers, not space people that fell from the sky.)

Anyway, he has a great piece count, a great function (I, for one, love it), and he's just a solid set.

I guess that I don't complain about prices because I'm a LEGO Star Wars collector. I drop big bucks on tiny sets, so buying a $15 LOSS that's as big as he is.....to me, it's refreshing.

[Mesonak]

I actually love LOSS, so I don't understand all the hate for him. Is he small? In comparison to the Toa, yes. Put he's still pretty large compared to a Protector (which makes sense if you think about it. LOSS was expected, in the story, to guard the ancient city from the villagers, not space people that fell from the sky.)

Well, I said it a couple posts ago; I don't dislike the set at all! Subjectively, it's probably my favorite set from the first wave. However, that doesn't mean the set is exempt from criticism, and I think that non-humanoid sets like LoSS and Scorpio should be designed with the same care that was given to all the humanoid sets. I don't think we should excuse or look past a severe lack of poseability just because there's a lever you can squeeze. :P

Edited March 4, 2015 by Mesonak

[Kalta the Noble Mind]

i am unsure if anyone caught it but someone counted the recolors of the new toa masks.

3 masks of ice (regular ,gold,funmetal)

3 masks of earth (regular,gold,funmetal)

3 masks of jungle (regular,gold,funmetal)

3 masks of stone (regular,gold,funmetal)

2 masks of water (regular,gold)

4 masks of fire (regular,gold,trans-red,trans-clear)

it all adds up to 18 masks total, 3 masks for 6 figures.

i am unsure of how budgeting works for lego but i a guessing why tahu and gali aren't getting funmetal masks is because their masks were spend on those two promo trans-masks .

so maybe we wont get those 2 masks anytime soon.

[GK733]

There are not more than 4 "funmetal masks" because there are only five sets. I'm sure both story and set designer teams were thinking 7 sets in total. But the budget came chopped, possibly because of Star Wars constraction and the Bionicle theme being constraction in general. Remains to be seen if they someday tell a bit about what happened behind closed doors during that day. Or I'm wrong. Seriously, chopping the 2 characters out isn't very story, character or set friendly and only excuse to do so would be money and money alone.