Is It Possible To Reintroduce Old Sets?

[SpacePolice89]

Is it possible to reintroduce old sets? I'm mostly wondering if it's technically possible to do so not debate if it's a good idea or not. In the early 2000s they still had the molds to produce the Guarded Inn, the Black Seas Barracuda and other sets from the 80s and the 90s. Could those sets be made today without making new molds? Is it possible to check which molds have been retired? Here are some examples of sets that I wonder if could be produced today with no or minimal modifications?

6267 Lagoon Lock Up

6927 All Terrain Vehicle

6078 Royal Drawbridge

6615 Eagle Stunt Flyer

6145 Crystal Crawler

So, what do you think? Could these sets be manufactured today?

[Murdoch17]

They tried that in the early 2000's, with LEGO Legends, and it didn't work out very well for them at all. I've read several books that say they were major money losers for the company.

[MAB]

1 hour ago, SpacePolice89 said:

Is it possible to reintroduce old sets?

 

Of course it is, as they have done it on a number of occasions before. There were the Legends sets you mentioned a few of, they also more recently reintroduced the Taj Mahal and Saturn V. So, yes, if they think there is a business case to do so, they will reintroduce old sets.

1 hour ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I'm mostly wondering if it's technically possible to do so not debate if it's a good idea or not. In the early 2000s they still had the molds to produce the Guarded Inn, the Black Seas Barracuda and other sets from the 80s and the 90s. Could those sets be made today without making new molds? Is it possible to check which molds have been retired? Here are some examples of sets that I wonder if could be produced today with no or minimal modifications?

So, what do you think? Could these sets be manufactured today?

You can check whether specific moulds are still used by looking at the parts on bricklink or other similar databases to see if the parts have recently appeared in sets. However, I'd expect if they wanted to make very close copies, they would often just use a close modern part. If an arch is no longer produced, but there is a modern version that is slightly different, then they'd use that. The palm tree, for example, hasn't been made for about 25 years with those exact parts, or about 20 years with very similar ones. But I imagine they would do a modern version with modern trunk parts or by using the dinosaur tail or something similar like they did in a Friends set a couple of years ago. It really depends on how much is minimal changes. They do actually make such changes in the online inventories at PAB. If an old part is no longer made, they suggest a current replacement if one exists. It is why their online inventories are not definitive when it comes to part types and bricklink is far better at recording what came in a set.

Just as important is the why would they want to make an (almost) exact copy. Many of the 1980s sets are not very detailed compared with modern standards. To some this means they look poor, to others this means they look great. To me, the Lagoon Lock-Up looks boring. I doubt if modern children would find it very interesting to build compared to a set designed of the same size (size, not part count) using today's standards. Who would remakes be for? As the number of people wanting exact copies is probably too small to warrant exact remakes compared to the number that would want it modernized. And those that want to build one using vintage parts can do so quite easily by buying vintage parts. Whereas collectors wanting the exact old set won't want an exact modern copy because it is a copy and not the original thing.

I have quite a few genuine vintage old sets. They are cool because they are old and the parts have survived for so long. The builds are rather basic but the sets are original and have nostalgia on their side. Whereas a newly made version of a vintage set isn't the same thing. The build might be the same but it loses the provenance that makes the old one special today.

Edited September 8, 2023 by MAB

[JopieK]

But they do it occasionally, take Review: 40370 Steam Engine as an example. It is a replica of the 7810 Push-Along Steam Engine!

[Slegengr]

@SpacePolice89
In some cases it is possible, but I think the concept runs into trouble for numerous reasons:
1. The "Legends" sets released in the early 2000's are reported to have not done very well, so TLG is less inclined to consider set remakes. (Would this concept work better today with more parents with a nostalgic connection to the sets from 1980-2000 with children at a good introductory age for LEGO sets? I think so, and think there is evidence of such with the success of The LEGO Movie and the current Icons line.)
2. Techniques as well as pieces are dated.  Old builds are basic compared to standards of today (partly due to more limited piece types available).  Some parts used require out-of-production molds.
3. Market disruption would occur since people collect the old sets for nostalgia and due to rarity today. Reproducing a set would upset collectors and is less likely to draw in new customers without the nostalgia/collector connection.
4. Modernized remakes with appeal to nostalgia seems much more likely to do well.  I personally think this is the best route as evidenced by the success of the recent Icons sets and Gift-With-Purchase (whether or not consumers like GWP...).  This gives the best of both worlds: appeal to nostalgia and interest for today's modern consumer, potentially rebuilding/reinforcing nostalgia for the LEGO brand and originals with new connections to the original "Golden Era" nostalgia.

For examples of retired molds from your example sets (all would require updates to outdated colors):
6267 Lagoon Lock-Up: 16x32 baseplate (baseplates in general are rare today), cloth sail, 2-piece jail cell door, adjustable palm tree trunk pieces
6927 All-Terrain Vehicle: 2x2 short support columns?, windshield slope, inverted cockpit slope, short ladders, rocket cones?, technic wheels
6078 Royal Drawbridge: 2x2x4 octagonal columns, 16x32 baseplate, 4x4x6 corner wall panels, small triangular LURP? (maybe BURP as well?), chrome great-sword, dragon helmet, dragon plumes, cap helmet with chinstrap aventail
6615 Eagle Stunt Flyer: wing plates, tail plate, tail fin, engine circular housing, propeller, exhaust pipe
6145 Crystal Crawler: wheels, bendable grapple arms (all pieces), faceted octagonal bubble windshield, propellers, octagonal corner column piece, spring-loaded pieces for locking the direction of the front propeller supports

In each of these cases, the pieces that are out-of-production (some for many years) are very critical to the sets.  I think it would be difficult to try to maintain the original set while replacing these parts with modern pieces that are a near-exact match to the original (sometimes not even an option, as far as I know).  The way I see it, in almost all regards, the modern Icon remakes are a much more viable option, since they maintain a nostalgia connection with the freedom to use modern pieces to reinterpret the original sets, sometimes with significant improvements to the build and design.

I also agree with all of the points @MAB made above.

[danth]

3 hours ago, Murdoch17 said:

They tried that in the early 2000's, with LEGO Legends, and it didn't work out very well for them at all. I've read several books that say they were major money losers for the company.

I bought some of those sets at Toys R Us. If I hadn't luckily stumbled upon the fact the Legends sets were happening on some Lego forum, I would have had no idea. They did NO marketing for those sets. I remember some fans were miffed because certain hair pieces were simply replaced instead of doing fully faithful reproductions. Also at least one set (Guarded Inn) was sold in a black and white box which was basically self sabotage.

I.e. this was more of a TLM bungle than proof that people didn't want old sets. Castle and Pirate fans are crazy, there is no way those sets (the Castle ones at least) didn't sell out.

I wonder if the Legends sets had low production runs. I only ever saw them at Toys R Us.

Of course that was 20 years ago, when old molds weren't really that old, and maybe just needed a metaphorical dust off vs. the full on resurrection they would need now.

Also these were post-SW and Space was the only missing Legends theme, wow what a mystery! 😒

[icm]

Just now, danth said:

Also these were post-SW and Space was the only missing Legends theme, wow what a mystery! 😒

In this case I think you're probably right.

[danth]

4 hours ago, Slegengr said:

In each of these cases, the pieces that are out-of-production (some for many years) are very critical to the sets.  I think it would be difficult to try to maintain the original set while replacing these parts with modern pieces that are a near-exact match to the original (sometimes not even an option, as far as I know).  The way I see it, in almost all regards, the modern Icon remakes are a much more viable option, since they maintain a nostalgia connection with the freedom to use modern pieces to reinterpret the original sets, sometimes with significant improvements to the build and design.

I have to agree. With a little bit of sadness, since it is cool to be able to get vintage sets brand new for cheap. But for every reason you gave above, new & improved interpretations are probably for the best.

[Slegengr]

2 hours ago, danth said:

I bought some of those sets at Toys R Us. If I hadn't luckily stumbled upon the fact the Legends sets were happening on some Lego forum, I would have had no idea. They did NO marketing for those sets. I remember some fans were miffed because certain hair pieces were simply replaced instead of doing fully faithful reproductions. Also at least one set (Guarded Inn) was sold in a black and white box which was basically self sabotage.

I.e. this was more of a TLM bungle than proof that people didn't want old sets. Castle and Pirate fans are crazy, there is no way those sets (the Castle ones at least) didn't sell out.

I wonder if the Legends sets had low production runs. I only ever saw them at Toys R Us.

Of course that was 20 years ago, when old molds weren't really that old, and maybe just needed a metaphorical dust off vs. the full on resurrection they would need now.

Also these were post-SW and Space was the only missing Legends theme, wow what a mystery! 😒

I don't know all the details, but the Legends sets were in the Shop-At-Home catalogs in the USA, so they had advertising.  The marketing was likely still less than it could have been!
My older brothers bought 2 of the Legends Black Falcon's Fortress and 2 of the Guarded Inn while my mother ordered the Black Seas Barracuda that I and my brother earned through summer work.  The concept was great for me having a chance at sets I had missed being too young or not born at time of release.

I don't recall the switched hair pieces; do you have any more details on that?  The gray-scale box was a mistake for sure, in my opinion.

It seems like TLG in general does not understand their market information properly and consistently bungles the concepts.  Maybe I am just missing the insider information as a consumer, but it seems like TLG could make a lot of money off more nostalgia connections, especially right now when people in their 30's/40' who lived through LEGO's "Golden Era" may have children to introduce to LEGO and would love the nostalgia connection.  Does TLG really not understand the meaning behind second-hand prices on old sets?  They certainly seemed to understand with the Eldorado Fortress remake: price matched the BrickLink average sales price for the original almost exactly...

The concept of competing with themselves is sometimes a valid one, but I don't know that comparing classic reproductions/nostalgia to Star Wars is quite the same thing.  Classic Space and Star Wars, though both "Space" are really not at all in the same market, in my opinion. 

[SpacePolice89]

6 hours ago, MAB said:

You can check whether specific moulds are still used by looking at the parts on bricklink or other similar databases to see if the parts have recently appeared in sets.

If Bricklink says a part has been offered between 1985-2015 for example can I then assume that it is completely discontinued? Or is it just not being produced for the moment and can return if it is needed?

[Slegengr]

2 minutes ago, danth said:

I have to agree. With a little bit of sadness, since it is cool to be able to get vintage sets brand new for cheap. But for every reason you gave above, new & improved interpretations are probably for the best.

I was in the middle of responding to your message when you submitted this response, so hopefully I can be forgiven for a double-post...

Though I would be thrilled with reproductions of classic sets, I think I understand the marketing behind not doing so.  Thankfully, I bought into the second-hand market for classic themes heavily during what is now likely historically the peak time: 2010-2015.  Second-hand availability was good with online sales methods while pricing was reasonable due to relatively niche interest.  I bought many second-hand collections through eBay and sorted out classic sets, especially Castle and some Pirates with a little Space, sourced the few missing pieces through BrickLink, and made great progress towards completing a collection of my childhood dreams, often in multiples of many Castle sets.  Through 2020-2022, the value of these sets has doubled according to BrickLink average sales prices.

The Icons sets are the perfect idea, in my opinion, due to reasons mentioned above.  I am taking this opportunity to revel in the improvements with new pieces while having the similar nostalgia and being able to share my childhood with my nephews through these sets.  One of my most favorite interests in the LEGO hobby is redesigning my own versions of updated classic sets, which I plan to do extensively over the coming years to share these sets with my nephews.

[SpacePolice89]

6 hours ago, Murdoch17 said:

They tried that in the early 2000's, with LEGO Legends, and it didn't work out very well for them at all. I've read several books that say they were major money losers for the company.

That is not the question. It's about if it is possible with current tools to make such sets or not and which molds are still available not if it is a good idea or profitable to do so.

4 hours ago, Slegengr said:

For examples of retired molds from your example sets (all would require updates to outdated colors):
6267 Lagoon Lock-Up: 16x32 baseplate (baseplates in general are rare today), cloth sail, 2-piece jail cell door, adjustable palm tree trunk pieces
6927 All-Terrain Vehicle: 2x2 short support columns?, windshield slope, inverted cockpit slope, short ladders, rocket cones?, technic wheels
6078 Royal Drawbridge: 2x2x4 octagonal columns, 16x32 baseplate, 4x4x6 corner wall panels, small triangular LURP? (maybe BURP as well?), chrome great-sword, dragon helmet, dragon plumes, cap helmet with chinstrap aventail
6615 Eagle Stunt Flyer: wing plates, tail plate, tail fin, engine circular housing, propeller, exhaust pipe
6145 Crystal Crawler: wheels, bendable grapple arms (all pieces), faceted octagonal bubble windshield, propellers, octagonal corner column piece, spring-loaded pieces for locking the direction of the front propeller supports

Thank you for this valuable information. It seems that very few older sets could be reintroduced without major changes.

[SpacePolice89]

2 hours ago, danth said:

I wonder if the Legends sets had low production runs. I only ever saw them at Toys R Us.

During those years I travelled all over Europe with an RV and I only remember seeing the Legends sets in Legoland Billund and of course on Lego Shop at Home

[Black Falcon]

22 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

That is not the question. It's about if it is possible with current tools to make such sets or not and which molds are still available not if it is a good idea or profitable to do so.

Thank you for this valuable information. It seems that very few older sets could be reintroduced without major changes.

There would have to be minor changes at least for most of them, due to several reasons. But yeah, especially the ones with special Baseplates would have no chance without getting modernized.

27 minutes ago, Slegengr said:

The Icons sets are the perfect idea, in my opinion, due to reasons mentioned above.  I am taking this opportunity to revel in the improvements with new pieces while having the similar nostalgia and being able to share my childhood with my nephews through these sets.  One of my most favorite interests in the LEGO hobby is redesigning my own versions of updated classic sets, which I plan to do extensively over the coming years to share these sets with my nephews.

I agree with that one. While reproductions of older set with only minor chances would still be nice, modernizing them is the better way IMO. While Legends Sets would mainly interest consumers that were in their childhood when those sets were produced, the modernized Sets just have a better chance to also attract younger consumers. So while it would be possible to bring back old Sets with minor changes only, I highly doubt we will see that in the near future.

[Celeri]

32 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

That is not the question. It's about if it is possible with current tools to make such sets or not and which molds are still available not if it is a good idea or profitable to do so.

I do not think it is relevant to set aside the profitability question, because it is a fundamental aspect that drives Lego's ambition and technical possibilities.

Technically speaking, they most probably can do again anything they have done before. It is merely a question of "do they want to do it again?". And what would convince them to do it, except the possibility to make a profit from it? Lego does not work for art or for glory, they work for money.

[TeriXeri]

Closest thing LEGO would do these days would be something like this , same set, same play features, and very similar scale, but uses available/modern parts instead.

I think as a set the remake is very good, just the way they limited it via distribution of GWP should not be the main way for these.

Edited September 8, 2023 by TeriXeri

[Slegengr]

36 minutes ago, TeriXeri said:

I think as a set the remake is very good, just the way they limited it via distribution of GWP should not be the main way for these.

Hoo, boy... though I touched on it earlier, the GWP discussion is a long one that goes a different direction than intended in this thread (though still an interesting discussion to be had, just probably elsewhere).

 

1 hour ago, SpacePolice89 said:

Thank you for this valuable information. It seems that very few older sets could be reintroduced without major changes.

Yes, that is what I think: many sets from the 80's and 90's have critical pieces/molds that have been discontinued.  Though there are sometimes similar modern counterparts, the differences are enough that they justify (in my opinion) a complete modernized remake with reasonable faithfulness to the original (the Forest Hideout mentioned above is a perfect example).

[Trekkie99]

I was going to say yes with how much of a adult enthusiast/collector market Lego has been catering to lately, but I don't think the majority of that market would want those sets let alone buy them.

I'd love to find someone making cool mocs in the style of these old sets. Sometimes I feel burned out on "beautiful lego" lol.

[Lion King]

I would say yes it’s possible for Lego to remake old sets! there are a few themes I want to see old sets being remade:

- Rock Raider 

- Adventurers

- Ice Planet

- Western

- Ninja 

[SpacePolice89]

8 hours ago, Celeri said:

I do not think it is relevant to set aside the profitability question, because it is a fundamental aspect that drives Lego's ambition and technical possibilities.

Technically speaking, they most probably can do again anything they have done before. It is merely a question of "do they want to do it again?". And what would convince them to do it, except the possibility to make a profit from it? Lego does not work for art or for glory, they work for money.

I just wanted to know what is possible to manufacture with the current molds and get some information about which molds are retired.

8 hours ago, Slegengr said:

Yes, that is what I think: many sets from the 80's and 90's have critical pieces/molds that have been discontinued.  Though there are sometimes similar modern counterparts, the differences are enough that they justify (in my opinion) a complete modernized remake with reasonable faithfulness to the original (the Forest Hideout mentioned above is a perfect example).

Completely agree. It would be cool to be able to buy newly produced version of old sets but if the changes are too great it's better to modernize the whole set. In a perfect world both could be available.

[SpacePolice89]

7 hours ago, Trekkie99 said:

I was going to say yes with how much of a adult enthusiast/collector market Lego has been catering to lately, but I don't think the majority of that market would want those sets let alone buy them.

I'd love to find someone making cool mocs in the style of these old sets. Sometimes I feel burned out on "beautiful lego" lol.

It would be nice to be able to custom order old sets directly from Lego as long as the parts are still in the inventory. But maybe it would be too expensive and difficult to be possible.

4 hours ago, Lion King said:

I would say yes it’s possible for Lego to remake old sets! there are a few themes I want to see old sets being remade:

- Rock Raider 

- Adventurers

- Ice Planet

- Western

- Ninja 

I love Ice Planet but I fear that many of the critical parts are discontinued. Is trans neon orange still available?

Are there any lists of discontinued molds or confirmed information about the subject?

[Mylenium]

19 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

Could those sets be made today without making new molds?

Probably not. The ways how molds are mounted and fed, the block sizes and whatnot have changed considerably over time and molds do age, so even if they still have them, they at least need a polish and possibly major adaptations to fit in a new machine. And some of those molds have already been reported as missing or damaged (not just the infamous goat), so LEGO would have to invest in new ones.

11 hours ago, Celeri said:

And what would convince them to do it,...

That is the question, is it not?

11 hours ago, Celeri said:

 ...,except the possibility to make a profit from it?

A better question likely is "How much of a profit?". They have been known to burn money on non-profitable projects just to show off and of course we could argue endlessly how poorly some sets actually sell. I think it's more important to consider how things balance out overall, not the individual product's success. This in turn could totally mean they would be willing to accrue losses on a revived older set if in turn it sparks interest in other sets and they recover the money that way.

Mylenium

[Black Falcon]

1 hour ago, Mylenium said:

A better question likely is "How much of a profit?". They have been known to burn money on non-profitable projects just to show off and of course we could argue endlessly how poorly some sets actually sell. I think it's more important to consider how things balance out overall, not the individual product's success. This in turn could totally mean they would be willing to accrue losses on a revived older set if in turn it sparks interest in other sets and they recover the money that way.

That would be hard to track though. And also, which sets should it spark interest to? I mean, I can totally see them doing that with a little Set of a new theme, to promote this theme. But with legends? I don´t know...

[Peppermint_M]

I think it would be more realistic for spiritual successors. Reusing the graphics from the torsos and panels (or dare I say giving them a slight tweak ala the CMF Blacktron figures that combined both styles into one) re-issuing the characters in a new storyline for the theme. As others said, many of the critical moulds are long gone or have passed reintroduction as technology marches on, but in a "neo" approach it is still possible. 

[Mylenium]

5 hours ago, Black Falcon said:

That would be hard to track though. And also, which sets should it spark interest to? I mean, I can totally see them doing that with a little Set of a new theme, to promote this theme. But with legends? I don´t know...

I don't see it that dramatically. Outside the "aged AFOL" bubble it would be treated just like any series and it is reasonable to assume the same steps and procedures would apply, meaning it would be part of a greater plan. In such a scenario they would be aware which sets to promoto and how the metrics are and they'd have a contingency plan to quickly pull the plug if things don't work out.

Mylenium