[TC14] Technic Theme Park Contest - Information Topic - Deadline 7th of September

[Jim]

15 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

What I notice with every contest is that there are a few people posting only on the last days, posting their finished stuff without works-in-progress. While little can be done about it, I think the most fun of these competitions is seeing everyeone's entries progress, and commenting on their entry-to-be and giving suggestions and tips and exchanging ideas.

Maybe we can do something about it. We need to make the contest a two-stage contest, where it's mandatory to post your discussion/wip topic after four weeks (halfway through the contest). Something like that.

I absolutely agree that we run contests to discuss the entries and see some progress, not just the end result.

17 hours ago, Seasider said:

I enter the competitions because I like that it gives me a topic to build to. Never entered because of specific prizes. I think the Technic mugs were the best prize so far.

 

15 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

Maybe next time do something a bit more down-to-earth (literally, seeing all those dizzying thrillrides).

We will definitely do a simpler contest next time. I already have two in mind.

[shadow_elenter]

I agree, but I doubt if more regulation will be the key. To enforce this would be exeptionally hard.

If you demand a WIP half way people can no longer enter after that point, or say they only just entered and anyone could just post a picture of a very early framework and post nothing in between then and the final post. And to prevent that you'd need another rule... it's an endless road.

I think just adding that that behavour is not desirable to the information topic should suffice.

I personally have way more appreciation for a MOC that I have seen grow and struggle than a MOC that attempts to make a last minut flash entry or whatever that's suposed to be. And I imagine most people think that way.

[Jim]

I agree it will be hard to enforce and it will limit last minute entries, but if we want to see more progress, we need to think about the options. 

Maybe having a simpler contest next time is the key to success. And clearly stating the prizes might also help too.

[Akbalder]

Only a few people can hope to win the prizes so I don't think that knowing them before would change much.

[Seasider]

That’s not entirely correct as if you read the voting rules the public have part of the vote and the moderators the rest. I guess this is to occasionally balance it out so the same people don’t win time and again. We had one competition with multiple classes to which took into consideration past performance 

[Jim]

And sometimes we do have a raffle prize. That's something I would like to introduce again.

By the way; how do you guys feel about different classes/categories?

[Seasider]

I think the classes of build skill is a good one @Jim I can appreciate how some people if they enter to win may be scared off by the “professionals” on here. I’m in constant awe of all you with proper Lego building areas and photo tables.

[Aventador2004]

10 minutes ago, Seasider said:

I can appreciate how some people if they enter to win may be scared off by the “professionals” on here.

That's how I felt first contest, but slowly you improve and gain more votes. I do think that more classes could be made, but lots of rules should be made.

[aminnich]

It also doesn't help that some contestants have YouTube channels and know how to make a killer video to show off there entry. I feel like a lot of the time people are voting on presentation instead of the build itself

[Aventador2004]

1 minute ago, aminnich said:

It also doesn't help that some contestants have YouTube channels and know how to make a killer video to show off there entry. I feel like a lot of the time people are voting on presentation instead of the build itself

Yeah, but that is technically part of entry.

Maybe a contest with no specific effects allowed.

[Jim]

7 minutes ago, aminnich said:

It also doesn't help that some contestants have YouTube channels and know how to make a killer video to show off there entry. I feel like a lot of the time people are voting on presentation instead of the build itself

I highly doubt that it really affects the outcome of the contest. Of course, a good presentation will help, but a lousy build with a killer video won't win the contest.

A separate Pro category for contestants who have won a medal in the past is something we can consider for all contests.

[Bublehead]

@Jim, I think if you want people to act a certain way, you reward them for it. If you want weekly updates on contest entries, have a rule that grants points based on participation. Sort of a you get 2 points per week extra for posting a weekly update for a total of x bonus point available. Not everyone will will be able to, but now you are not penalizing someone for not posting but rewarding people for posting. You would get the reaction you want because we all can mostly post weekly and you could have a rule on pictures as well, +x points per picture a week up to a limited total per contest... but you get the idea. As for classes, if you have enough entries to have classes, this is a good thing, determining what class a person belongs in and how to classify entrants, that’s a bit harder. I would not classify myself as a beginner yet, if we use prior medals as a determinant, that’s where I would end up, which is not fair to real beginners.  Self classification is very subjective, but fair if everyone is honest about their skills.  Prior participation is one method of classification, so you can be a beginner for your first competition, but must move to intermediate on next contest, and medal winners are to compete with medal winners on all contests... but this starts putting a lot of burden on the contest moderators to validate and keep track of. I think it comes down to how much work @Jim and @Milan are willing to put into it,  and what their goal is... promotion of the hobby, the theme, and the product? Fun? Increasing Forum participation? Prizes? Fame? Glory? HOF inclusion? King of the internet?

[Erik Leppen]

 

 

2 hours ago, Jim said:

By the way; how do you guys feel about different classes/categories?

I'd like to see a "Lego only" class. No SBrick, no BuWizz, no external electric lighting, no rubber bands or non-Lego strings, no custom decals, etc. Only what's available through TLC. I always try to build "pure" and I sometimes feel that using third-party electronics is a slight form of cheating (even though most builds are probably easy to convert to Lego-only). TC11 (battlebots) had a PF category, and it felt to give a more level playing field.

But it depends on the theme, whether categories make sense.

I think what you should be wary of is the prizes going to the same people every time. Often, winners are people who have already very large collections, and are both good builders and put a lot of time/knowledge into their photography/video editing. A raffle prize solves that problem, and it gives everyone a possibility to win something as a reward for their effort and for joining the fun and keeping the community active.

2 hours ago, aminnich said:

It also doesn't help that some contestants have YouTube channels and know how to make a killer video to show off there entry. I feel like a lot of the time people are voting on presentation instead of the build itself

I have the same idea.

1 hour ago, Jim said:

I highly doubt that it really affects the outcome of the contest. Of course, a good presentation will help, but a lousy build with a killer video won't win the contest.

If "a good presentation will help", then it affects the outcome of the contest (because what other defintion of "help" did you have in mind? ). A lousy build shouldn't win a contest, so this is good. But have we had a great build with a lousy video win a contest lately? Because if not, then that's exactly @aminnich's point.

2 hours ago, Aventador2004 said:

Yeah, but that is technically part of entry.

Maybe a contest with no specific effects allowed.

I don't agree with your first sentence - this is a Lego building competition, not a video editing competition. But I'd really like to see a no-effects rule, so that people who have that non-Lego-related video-editing knowledge, can't gain an advantage that way. (People are of course free to show their killer video after the contest ends). Anyhow, this discussion returns with every contest, and I am very much guilty of repeating myself too here, and I think very little can be done. But I really like the no-effects idea.

A separate Pro category for contestants who have won a medal in the past is something we can consider for all contests.

I'm not sure grouping the people is a good idea. I'd say, if you want categories, categorize the builds according to some measurable property. (Size, for example.)

Edited September 9, 2018 by Erik Leppen

[suffocation]

So sad to see so much back and forth on the rules. It's an online Lego contest - the best thing, which by the way is worth so much more than any prize Bugatti or the likes, should be the smorgasbord of new building ideas and techniques the contest is bound to generate and that users can take and put their own spin on for future MOCs.

[Seasider]

A pure / striped down competition would be good. Think we have a load of ideas here for @Jim and @Milan to take onboard 

[Jim]

@Erik Leppen Take a look at the previous contests and ask yourself whether the top-3 would have been different if they had unedited videos. I don't think it would have mattered.

On the other hand; the no-effects (this also means no music/sounds) rule is pretty easy to implement, so it is definitely something we can consider.

[shadow_elenter]

Somehow I get the feeling I'm being mentioned without being mentioned...


 

 

 

[Bublehead]

I entered the latest contest because, One, I had a good idea, two, I had found some time to build it, and three, I was able to jump through all the necessary hoops to have my entry accepted.  I didn’t enter to win anything other than praise and constructive criticism. I didn’t enter to generate content for any other pursuit, or channel. I did it to join in the fun and comradery and the shared experience, the promotion of the hobby, and the promotion of the theme and Lego.  I’m all for fairness, level playfield, and the like, but this is starting to sound like all that fine print at the bottom of a sweepstakes ticket.  Wether we have a purist contest or a third party free for all is not really the question, but how do you have a contest that includes everyone, not just the rock stars, the wannabe new comers, or the seasoned but new to the forum vets like myself?  How do we take into account the difference in the amount of Lego people have to build with? Or how much time they have to work on it?, or how much monetary investment people are willing to spend?  I don’t have any answers right now but discussing it here is how we work this out... 

One way to do it is limit the scope of the contest to a limited set of parts, and the easiest way to do that is by set numbers... so C model competition or combinations of multiple sets.   You want to enter the contest? Ok, do you own these sets? Yes? Then you are good.

[Bublehead]

@shadow_elenter, you are the rock star we all want to be, and so you know you are the reason for a good portion of the discussion. And I am not afraid to say it.  Let’s face it, you are talented in many different areas, and you have experience promoting your brand.  This does not bother me, and it does not not prevent me from competing against you, and as a matter of fact, I enjoy your level of mastery as an opponent.  You set the bar very high and give us all a goal to shoot for, and if I had more time, I would be trying just as hard at this as you do.  So you are not the elephant in the room, at least not to me 

[Aventador2004]

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

I don't agree with your first sentence - this is a Lego building competition

Yes, I just meant a video is part of an entry. Some just have more skill than others.

@shadow_elenter, I don't think your entry would be much less an entry without a good video, it just gives some an advantige.

[BrickbyBrickTechnic]

I feel like having 2 tiers would be interesting. One one hand, competing against experienced, refined builders is a privilege to honour and helps one improve. On the other hand, knowing that you will be squashed repeatedly by those builders really sucks. I think a second tier would attract more lower skilled builders because it would show that they could get some love as well. The TC11 prize system was perfect IMO.

[Jim]

That is/was exactly the idea behind the two tiers  

And it’s only for prizes, not for medals or anything else.

[lcvisser]

8 hours ago, Jim said:

I agree it will be hard to enforce and it will limit last minute entries, but if we want to see more progress, we need to think about the options. 

Maybe having a simpler contest next time is the key to success. And clearly stating the prizes might also help too.

I think the only way to prevent last-minute entries is to have the contest in two rounds. So vote at half-way and then the best N WIPs can continue to the next round (for some suitable value of N). This enforces a WIP, but might make it "too official" and cumbersome.

I do like the idea of "classes". On some contest topics, like the crane contest, the "pro" builders leave very little chance for us mortals to win  Maybe a simple rule like "if you have won a previous contest, you're in the pro league, otherwise you're in the regular league". Promotion to pro if you win in the regular league. (And demotion...? ).

Anyway, I really enjoy the contests. I don't always have time to participate, but I always try to follow! 

[BrickbyBrickTechnic]

1 hour ago, Jim said:

That is/was exactly the idea behind the two tiers  

In that case I would love to see it make a comeback!

[Akbalder]

When the winners are announced, there could be a ranking with everyone and a ranking with the builders who haven't won a medal yet.

For the building topics, there could just be a rule asking to post some pics of the moc half-built in the wip topic.