AG - Introduction and Discussion

[Zepher]

I have no problem with the judging. I'd prefer to keep judges opinions in the mix. I respect all three as builders. I'd hate to just go down a checklist so I know how to score points!

I think my most recent build is better than my other two, but all three have scored a three. Which means I have to just work even harder to score a four!

[Kodan Black]

3 is still less biased than 1.

The only problem with set specific guidelines is you get people building to the letter of the law and avoiding the spirit of the law. Over 500 pieces gets another point? People fluff up the part count with some background. Plus even within your guidelines you have "advanced techniques" which is entirely subjective.

Something like wrong environment should basically be a DQ. If you build on a barren world and you have a giant sea life scene it should just be "Please try again." But you need some flexibility too. I mean look at earth ... tell me what a body of water looks like. Green? Blue? White? Because I can think of places where you would see each of those.

[Boxerlego]

@Commander Turtle: I think it is too early to give up. Where is the honor at in giving up. Right now I think the decisive factor has been team work for every corporation. Team work make the dream work. So what that MANTIS has jump the gun on the Gold planet and got there first. Don't bring yourself down about it if you think your the biggest and strongest Corp. MANTIS had received a boost with it bribe bags and once that is gone will that turn the tides against them. I think this cease fire with MANTIS is to drain away the Momentum that MANTIS needed to catch up.

Currently scoring is done by rounded averages between the three judges, who have their own personal rating systems. I've already suggested credits could be given by unrounded averages (e.g. 4.333 gets 43 credits). A more prescriptive system would be nice, sometimes there really isn't much separating a 3 from a 4 or a 4 from a 5. That said, we shouldn't expect the judges to increase their workload by adding more details - not unless you want 1 judge assigned per build.

That is nice to know.

On the tactics; team members are definitely going to have to come to terms with being on a losing team. Only one team will be in the lead at any given time and there's no catchup system if one team is smaller. I enjoy thinking tactically, but it absolutely has to be second priority behind giving members opportunities for fun builds.

I think Single player has influenced you to much on how to think about this. Just because one team is smaller doesn't necessarily mean there the weakest, this game is competition on the Nth degree. I see the Catch up system aimed more along the lines of team work and the more team work you have the better you are off. No wonder MANTIS was able to outsmart Kawashita.

To change topic a bit, it's interesting that the bribe bags have adversely affected Kawashita, as we're on a collision course. While Octan are going to surround 2 of the rare resources at the current rate without being affected at all. Individually the bribe bags sounded nice, but as a team the weekly 20 domination point advantage might have proven to be overpowered - MANTIS were not 60 points behind when they were introduced! This plus the bonus to credits has made Kawashita the underdog, especially as both other companies have headed to our side of the map.

It all would have been fine if MANTIS had just gone clockwise like every other team

I'm interested if any other balancing mechanics will be introduced later.

The bribe bags aren't not that much of a treat as I originally thought it would be for MANTIS. I think you are over reacting on this one. How does all this make us guy and gals over at OCTAN seem more of a threat. Do you think us guys and gals at Octan want to take both corporation on at once were not that crazy we just trying to make the most of the game board at the moment and have some fun while collecting resources. What you see happening over at Octan is team work nothing more.

[Dardanel]

3 is still less biased than 1.

The only problem with set specific guidelines is you get people building to the letter of the law and avoiding the spirit of the law. Over 500 pieces gets another point? People fluff up the part count with some background. Plus even within your guidelines you have "advanced techniques" which is entirely subjective.

Something like wrong environment should basically be a DQ. If you build on a barren world and you have a giant sea life scene it should just be "Please try again." But you need some flexibility too. I mean look at earth ... tell me what a body of water looks like. Green? Blue? White? Because I can think of places where you would see each of those.

"Advanced techniques" can, of course, be specified. The list was just an example.

As per environments, a plethora of options is available for all worlds and you can always argue that "it's inside a dome" or something similar. That's why it's -1 and not a disqualification.

On the other hand, posting builds after a deadline and especially on planets you do not have access to should be disqualifications. (posting after deadline should be actually treated as an entry for next week)

[rodiziorobs]

On the other hand, posting builds after a deadline and especially on planets you do not have access to should be disqualifications. (posting after deadline should be actually treated as an entry for next week)

I am not sure if this is directed at me, but since my build was technically posted after the deadline--and was one of the early arrivals on A06--I figure it might as well be. I am not attacking you, but let me explain the situation:

I posted mine late because I had to have some personal equipment in order to reach A06; however, in the middle of transferring credits there was a good deal of confusion, and some members' sigfigs even (erroneously) showed them with negative credits for awhile. Unsure if things were going to work out, I sent Bob a PM and apologized for the lateness. He graciously explained that because of the confusion he would still allow my late build to be accepted.

Was I trying to game the system by posting late? Certainly not. However, I also didn't want to try and post a build to a planet I couldn't reach, which is why I messaged Bob, to make sure my actions were acceptable.

I am sorry if there are any hard feelings about this, but it was the result of some confusion, and we all did the best we could to resolve things.

********

As for the judging, I am amazed at how quickly the three got it done this week. I have had to do judging for other events, and while it is stressful trying to be fair and impartial to each participant, it is even more stressful to make sure that the scores are recorded, averaged, and awarded properly, let alone all the credits and job bonuses, special equipments, and resources that are specific to AG. I cannot fathom how they did it all in one day and still kept their day jobs, so hats off to all three of you!

Also, having three judges is probably thr best way to do it--with a single judge there is no oversight, with a popular vote it becomes lengthy and unwieldy--there is no way we could have weekly entries if every entry had its own voting thread. Can you imagine it? Can you imagine having to count each one, every week? Ugh. Besides, then the team with the most members would have an advantage each week--don't tell me teams wouldn't upvote their own members at the expense of everyone else.

Three judges keeps it fair, yet manageable enough to have weekly builds (somehow--I don't think I personally could keep up!)

I wouldn't mind seeing a rubric if they have one, yet I haven't seen any scores yet that seem unreasonable or unfair, so I believe the system works quite well for now.

Edited June 16, 2015 by rodiziorobs

[Commander Turtle]

Thanks for the explanation of what happened Rodiziorobs, it did look confusing from outside. Wasn't sure if there was some judicial bribing going on

[Ferdinando]

I don't know if I should post this here, but for some strnge reason my sig-fig has disappered from the signature. Could someone fix it?

[Aliencat]

OK here's my introduction into Andromeda's Gates:

Name: Aliencat

Corporation: None! I'm an alien trying to defend my quiet, peaceful homeworld of primary colours and annoying birds and rabbits and bees and junk from you thieving corporations!

Job: Door-to-door vacuum salesman (but that's obviously just a tax cover, seeing as I live on a planet with no doors...)

And here's a 100x100 avatar:

[Dannylonglegs]

OK here's my introduction into Andromeda's Gates:

Name: Aliencat

Corporation: None! I'm an alien trying to defend my quiet, peaceful homeworld of primary colours and annoying birds and rabbits and bees and junk from you thieving corporations!

Job: Door-to-door vacuum salesman (but that's obviously just a tax cover, seeing as I live on a planet with no doors...)

And here's a 100x100 avatar:

Oh my gosh! We'll aren't you the cutest little furry critter I've ever seen?! looks like we've got ourselves a fabulous little wildcard on the table now! D'awww.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Edited June 16, 2015 by Dannylonglegs

[aeralure]

Aliencat? More like Awesomecat! Welcome!

[Dardanel]

I am not sure if this is directed at me, but since my build was technically posted after the deadline--and was one of the early arrivals on A06--I figure it might as well be. I am not attacking you, but let me explain the situation:

I posted mine late because I had to have some personal equipment in order to reach A06; however, in the middle of transferring credits there was a good deal of confusion, and some members' sigfigs even (erroneously) showed them with negative credits for awhile. Unsure if things were going to work out, I sent Bob a PM and apologized for the lateness. He graciously explained that because of the confusion he would still allow my late build to be accepted.

Was I trying to game the system by posting late? Certainly not. However, I also didn't want to try and post a build to a planet I couldn't reach, which is why I messaged Bob, to make sure my actions were acceptable.

I am sorry if there are any hard feelings about this, but it was the result of some confusion, and we all did the best we could to resolve things.

********

As for the judging, I am amazed at how quickly the three got it done this week. I have had to do judging for other events, and while it is stressful trying to be fair and impartial to each participant, it is even more stressful to make sure that the scores are recorded, averaged, and awarded properly, let alone all the credits and job bonuses, special equipments, and resources that are specific to AG. I cannot fathom how they did it all in one day and still kept their day jobs, so hats off to all three of you!

Also, having three judges is probably thr best way to do it--with a single judge there is no oversight, with a popular vote it becomes lengthy and unwieldy--there is no way we could have weekly entries if every entry had its own voting thread. Can you imagine it? Can you imagine having to count each one, every week? Ugh. Besides, then the team with the most members would have an advantage each week--don't tell me teams wouldn't upvote their own members at the expense of everyone else.

Three judges keeps it fair, yet manageable enough to have weekly builds (somehow--I don't think I personally could keep up!)

I wouldn't mind seeing a rubric if they have one, yet I haven't seen any scores yet that seem unreasonable or unfair, so I believe the system works quite well for now.

No, not you in particular, there have been a few builds posted after the deadline. If I had to be terribly nitpicky then I would have to point out that there were even some builds that happened on planets that had "alien activity: none" showing alien activity. (this is totally fine with me and should not be against the rules, but it is)

But, you did manage to show the exact the point I am trying to make. All of this happened privately between you and Bob, which in neither fair, nor transparent and shows favoritism, since it's not only the two of you playing the game.

You made an excellent point tho :D We should make a shadow judging committee :D

[aeralure]

This was my first week actually participating after having joined mid-week the week before, so first I wish to say thanks to the judges for being so quick and to the staff for setting all of this up. It's awesome. I'm really enjoying it.

Having said that, I suppose I'll weigh in too on some of the things being discussed:

On the judging. I think there should be three (at least as opposed to one). That feels like it would offer a better range of scores, even though in actuality with averaging in place on a scale of 1-7 probably most scoring of any one build doesn't differ by more than a point in almost all cases. It may not make too much of a difference in actual practice, but sometimes it would flip a score up or down a point and that's huge. While I do think it would help the judges to have a checklist of things they look for to give an idea of a starting point for their scoring - and they probably do have some form of this - I'm of the opinion that it should be kept private otherwise we'd see gaming of the system. While I hope that digital and actual builds are rated equally, and admitting bias because I'm currently stuck in digital land, I do think actual brick builds offer more 'gravitas' and really can't deny that they probably have a tendency to score a little better. I suppose I'm ok with that.

On the bribe bags. It was obvious Mantis needed a helping hand at the time. It certainly worked out well for them. Maybe a bit powerful in terms of the ability to buy personal techs early but it's all good. Almost all of their members are active and not all of ours (Kawashita) are, and that plays as big a role as anything else.

On 'outsmarting' Kawashita. I don't think it was that as much as growing pains. Kawashita grew quickly and it seems like - before I joined - some builds were happening all over the place with less focus than seems to have happened with Octan, for example. And that's OK! I think it's important that members who wish to build where they wish and be a bit more rogue and just have fun be allowed to do so. I think of it like perhaps Kawashita has some mercenaries and rogue entities in addition to 'regulars' among their ranks and the game was indeed envisioned to allow that as well. It's all good. Probably the main problems, if I'd call them that, being experienced at Kawashita is being pressed currently on both sides as well as about 1/3 of our members not active yet. At least to the latter I'd encourage all our as yet inactive members to join us in submitting even the prototypical 'minifig on a plate.' It's all in good fun here. No need for an epic build if you haven't got it in you this week or have any doubts. There's something great to be found in all of them so come on and join in on the fun!

On Octan drawing genitals on the map. Well played Ocatn. Well played indeed.

Edited June 16, 2015 by aeralure

[WickNole]

No, not you in particular, there have been a few builds posted after the deadline. If I had to be terribly nitpicky then I would have to point out that there were even some builds that happened on planets that had "alien activity: none" showing alien activity. (this is totally fine with me and should not be against the rules, but it is)

I'll just post this here: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=98049&st=100#entry2218606

[aeralure]

I'll just post this here: http://www.eurobrick...00#entry2218606

Hmm. I'll post a dissenting opinion on that one (not your link, but the decision therein). I think 'alien activity: none' should mean 'alien activity: none.' Doesn't mean no plants or other kinds of life. Just means [probably] no animal life, sentient or otherwise - but more importantly to the game - no alien builds on that planet. It just makes the game have another layer of tactical interest. To remove that makes the alien denotation on the planet map pointless. Admittedly, there are no rules either for 'sparse' vs 'moderate.' Sparse, moderate and intense could possibly mean a multiplier or bonus to the level of domination affected (within a reasonable scale of course) - but - I do think 'none' should mean 'none.'

Changed my mind. It's good I think to have some planets with no alien activity, but I'm equally fine about allowing alien builds on any planet. Guess I don't mind either way and I'm simply glad I got it sorted out that alien builds are allowed anywhere.

Edited June 17, 2015 by aeralure

[CMP]

I must've missed something - we have a time-based deadline?

[rodiziorobs]

But, you did manage to show the exact the point I am trying to make. All of this happened privately between you and Bob, which in neither fair, nor transparent and shows favoritism, since it's not only the two of you playing the game.

I see nothing unfair at all. I messaged Bob because he is in charge of the game. It was not private because it was intended to be "secret", but because his input was the only one that mattered. I think that posting the question publicly would have been more unfair, as Bob may have felt pressure to answer a specific way. As is, I asked if late was okay, stated that if not I understood and would accept the consequences, and he responded. This is exactly the kind of thing PMing is for.

As for transparency, that is why I posted my explanation in this thread. Now everybody knows.

As for favoritism, I see nothing to back up your claim here. Perhaps if I were Octan, you may might possibly but probably still not have a case. There was a confusing situation, and I looked to Bob on what to do and he told me, as he would have for any player in the same spot.

You made an excellent point tho :D We should make a shadow judging committee :D

I didn't say that.

Are we done here?

***************

Edited June 16, 2015 by rodiziorobs

[Dardanel]

I see nothing unfair at all. I messaged Bob because he is in charge of the game. It was not private because it was intended to be "secret", but because his input was the only one that mattered. I think that posting the question publicly would have been more unfair, as Bob may have felt pressure to answer a specific way. As is, I asked if late was okay, stated that if not I understood and would accept the consequences, and he responded. This is exactly the kind of thing PMing is for.

As for transparency, that is why I posted my explanation in this thread. Now everybody knows.

As for favoritism, I see nothing to back up your claim here. Perhaps if I were Octan, you may might possibly but probably still not have a case. There was a confusing situation, and I looked to Bob on what to do and he told me, as he would have for any player in the same spot.

I didn't say that.

Are we done here?

***************

Of course you see nothing wrong, since you're the one reaping the benefits of having exemptions to the rules.

This week a few members of Kawashita went out of their way and made regular and alien builds so we can slow down M.A.N.T.I.S. progress, if need be, and waited until the last moment to post, just to see what and where you guys will build.

Do you see now how having a secret agreement is unfair?

[WickNole]

I find them very beautiful, don't you?

I find them awesome. And hope they remain this way.

[Bob De Quatre]

Of course you see nothing wrong, since you're the one reaping the benefits of having exemptions to the rules.

This week a few members of Kawashita went out of their way and made regular and alien builds so we can slow down M.A.N.T.I.S. progress, if need be, and waited until the last moment to post, just to see what and where you guys will build.

Do you see now how having a secret agreement is unfair?

Concerning rodiziorobs' build, I started to write a long answer, but I'll just say this: The deadline is when I got to work on Monday morning and I can post the official end of the week. But since you guys keep posting at the last moment, I have to deal with any problem first thing when I got to work... Rodiziorobs delayed his build because there was a problem with the purchasing of an equipment he needed to post his build on Guinevre. Since I was responsible of the problem, I decided to accept his build for week 4. I would have do the same if the problem occured to a Kawashita's player.

Concerning the Bribe bags, we created them to try to boost MANTIS because it suffered badly from a lack of players after week 1. We hopped it would attract players, and it did. The only "problem" is that it attracted very skilled players, so the effect of their Bribe bag combined with their skills is extremely effective. The staff will discuss of the actions to take.

Concerning judging, I'll just throw some numbers for week 4 since they don't lie ( ):

- We had to score 51 builds.

- On the 1 to 7 scale, the maximum difference between two judges for a build is 1 point, so there are no builds were a judge would have scored a 5 and another judge 3.

- The average score is 3.92 points. The average scores for each judge are 3.84, 3.88 and 4.02

- The maximum difference in average score for a corporation between two judges is 0.27 for Octan, 0.19 for Kawashita and 0.43 for MANTIS

The 3 judges score almost exactly the same, while we each have a different way of scoring. We are always open to discuss any "problem" with a particular scoring, directly here or in the build thread or in PM. Form now on, if one of the judge is contacted by PM regarding a build (delay, score, ...) the two other judges will be added to the PM.

Concerning strategies of the corporation, each one started at the same distance from 2 of the rare metals planets. You can't blame the third corp if two corp decided to run for the same planet.

[Dardanel]

Concerning rodiziorobs' build, I started to write a long answer, but I'll just say this: The deadline is when I got to work on Monday morning and I can post the official end of the week. But since you guys keep posting at the last moment, I have to deal with any problem first thing when I got to work... Rodiziorobs delayed his build because there was a problem with the purchasing of an equipment he needed to post his build on Guinevre. Since I was responsible of the problem, I decided to accept his build for week 4. I would have do the same if the problem occured to a Kawashita's player.

Concerning the Bribe bags, we created them to try to boost MANTIS because it suffered badly from a lack of players after week 1. We hopped it would attract players, and it did. The only "problem" is that it attracted very skilled players, so the effect of their Bribe bag combined with their skills is extremely effective. The staff will discuss of the actions to take.

Concerning judging, I'll just throw some numbers for week 4 since they don't lie ( ):

- We had to score 51 builds.

- On the 1 to 7 scale, the maximum difference between two judges for a build is 1 point, so there are no builds were a judge would have scored a 5 and another judge 3.

- The average score is 3.92 points. The average scores for each judge are 3.84, 3.88 and 4.02

- The maximum difference in average score for a corporation between two judges is 0.27 for Octan, 0.19 for Kawashita and 0.43 for MANTIS

The 3 judges score almost exactly the same, while we each have a different way of scoring. We are always open to discuss any "problem" with a particular scoring, directly here or in the build thread or in PM. Form now on, if one of the judge is contacted by PM regarding a build (delay, score, ...) the two other judges will be added to the PM.

Concerning strategies of the corporation, each one started at the same distance from 2 of the rare metals planets. You can't blame the third corp if two corp decided to run for the same planet.

Why do you all believe that I have a problem with you/anybody being allowed to post a build later because something went awry? Please read again, carefully, what I wrote and you will see that I have 0 issues with this. Quite the contrary, I support it!

What I do have an issue with is that it was done in absolute secrecy, giving an unfair advantage to certain players. Had this not been done in secret then we (Kawashita) could've perhaps shifted our strategy.

[Zaael]

Concerning rodiziorobs' build, I started to write a long answer, but I'll just say this: The deadline is when I got to work on Monday morning and I can post the official end of the week. But since you guys keep posting at the last moment, I have to deal with any problem first thing when I got to work... Rodiziorobs delayed his build because there was a problem with the purchasing of an equipment he needed to post his build on Guinevre. Since I was responsible of the problem, I decided to accept his build for week 4. I would have do the same if the problem occured to a Kawashita's player.

Concerning the Bribe bags, we created them to try to boost MANTIS because it suffered badly from a lack of players after week 1. We hopped it would attract players, and it did. The only "problem" is that it attracted very skilled players, so the effect of their Bribe bag combined with their skills is extremely effective. The staff will discuss of the actions to take.

Concerning judging, I'll just throw some numbers for week 4 since they don't lie ( ):

- We had to score 51 builds.

- On the 1 to 7 scale, the maximum difference between two judges for a build is 1 point, so there are no builds were a judge would have scored a 5 and another judge 3.

- The average score is 3.92 points. The average scores for each judge are 3.84, 3.88 and 4.02

- The maximum difference in average score for a corporation between two judges is 0.27 for Octan, 0.19 for Kawashita and 0.43 for MANTIS

The 3 judges score almost exactly the same, while we each have a different way of scoring. We are always open to discuss any "problem" with a particular scoring, directly here or in the build thread or in PM. Form now on, if one of the judge is contacted by PM regarding a build (delay, score, ...) the two other judges will be added to the PM.

Concerning strategies of the corporation, each one started at the same distance from 2 of the rare metals planets. You can't blame the third corp if two corp decided to run for the same planet.

Nicely put Bob! And good to see that the judging is so close! You and the other judges are doing a good job running this thing!! Judging 51 builds is quite something.

[Bob De Quatre]

Why do you all believe that I have a problem with you/anybody being allowed to post a build later because something went awry? Please read again, carefully, what I wrote and you will see that I have 0 issues with this. Quite the contrary, I support it!

So we are good on this. Sorry if I misread what you were saying

What I do have an issue with is that it was done in absolute secrecy, giving an unfair advantage to certain players. Had this not been done in secret then we (Kawashita) could've perhaps shifted our strategy.

Maybe it shouldn't have been done that way... Anyway, rodiziorobs pointed out that the credits were messed up at 3:35AM, while I was sleeping, I acknowledged it at 9:32AM (so after the "theoric" deadline) probably while he was sleeping, and confirmed everything was corrected at 10:09AM. Then Rodizioribs posted his build at 11:24AM and sent me a PM right away to ask if I'll accept his build for week 4. Honestly, what could have Kawashita done differently after the deadline??

[Dardanel]

So we are good on this. Sorry if I misread what you were saying

Maybe it shouldn't have been done that way... Anyway, rodiziorobs pointed out that the credits were messed up at 3:35AM, while I was sleeping, I acknowledged it at 9:32AM (so after the "theoric" deadline) probably while he was sleeping, and confirmed everything was corrected at 10:09AM. Then Rodizioribs posted his build at 11:24AM and sent me a PM right away to ask if I'll accept his build for week 4. Honestly, what could have Kawashita done differently after the deadline??

Post the 4-5 alien builds we had instead of regular builds. Is 3:35AM not after the deadline as well? As we in the Kawashita chat gather, the deadline is every Monday 00:00AM, UK time.

[WickNole]

I'd second the question regarding the deadline. The clarification here would be good to have.

I personally assumed that it's somewhere around 9:00 UK time (based on "Bob's at work" type of deadline), and last weeks I posted in the early morning from work as well, as I don't have much Internet on the weekends.

Good, though, that my builds do not affect planet domination needs.

Edited June 17, 2015 by WickNole

[Bob De Quatre]

So deadline for weekly builds is on Monday 10:00UTC/GMT.