Has LEGO Castle Become Cliche'?

[gormadoc]

I admit that the Castle theme is old.

Most parts of it were good and some bad, but The Castle theme has evolved just like The Town theme has.

I don't think some sets live up to the reputation of the theme, but Castle keeps on going.

Remeber that kids today have different opinions to what some of us might have had 20 years ago.

However, I think Castle is timeless, it keeps on changing just like time has, but there are room for improvements.

Edited March 22, 2010 by gormadoc

[Hound Knight]

I'm not sure cliche is the right word. That's the draw of castle to me. All the castle cliches (knights in armor, maidens in distress). I think a better term is 'old hat.'

Likewise. And I like old hats.

I do think it could be a bit more interesting if TLG would produce more factions at once like they did in ye olden days.

[fred67]

I actually got back into LEGO as an adult because of trains, but being a Star Wars fan, bought a lot of those sets... but being old, I don't like eps 1-3 and am not really interested in clone wars... I have a bunch of Star Wars ships, and never even considered Castle until a couple of years ago when I decided that it was the Star Wars line that was becoming old and predictable, and I discovered Medieval Market Village, Troll Warship, KIngs Castle... and that got me started on the Caste Fantasy Line, because I'd say at this point I'm a much bigger LOTR fan than Star Wars, and this is about as close as you'll get with LEGO.

That said, I can see why people would feel that way. I'm looking forward to the new sets, but then I haven't been collecting them for 20 years, either. It'll be nice to stock up on humans, and I find it interesting that we seem to be getting factions instead of good guys/bad guys... which is very much more like "real life."

So I understand the sentiment, but I'm happy they are continuing the line, and that every new generation of LEGO enthusiasts will have an opportunity to enjoy them.

What I would like to see... I'm super impressed with the modular building sets, like Green Grocer and Cafe Corner. They really stepped up the quality of the builds with Medieval Market Village, but if they took the time to make Castle pieces in that vein, I think that would be really impressive.

Ultimately, a modular Castle - where you buy the pieces separately, would be fantastic... you could buy towers, wall sections, interior buildings (black smith shops, stables, etc.) and put it together your own way... want a GIANT walled city? Just keep buying wall sections. Think of the community build, but with LEGO actually releasing the sets (of course, there wouldn't be nearly as many).

I also loved the idea they used with the My Own Trains steam engines... there was a basic pack of bricks, and then a color pack to go with it. It let you build your engine in a variety of colors, and was a very modular approach that gave you only three engines, but with two builds for each engine, the option of including a tender or not, and like 5 colors or so, gave you a HUGE variety.

So I would imagine that something similar, where you could get white, light gray, dark gray walls, for example, would be really cool... build your own castle out of castle section sets, in the color you choose.... wall sections, gates, small towers, large towers... all modular, and accessory kits, perhaps, for different "factions." And no more "cramped" castles (one of the adjectives used to describe the troll fortress).

I do think it could be a bit more interesting if TLG would produce more factions at once like they did in ye olden days.

And that would be the beauty of my idea... it's harder for them to build a complete castle for each faction; if you could build your own out of modular pieces and then just get a much smaller faction "accessory" kit, that would be a lot easier for them and more flexible for us.

Edited March 24, 2010 by fred67

[Tyrant]

Various modular ideas

Those tweeks to the usual modular idea sound great. Taking the customizable idea that they used with those train engines and adding the idea of using accesory sets to specify factions instead of having them already be a specific faction is a great idea. I don't know how practical TLG considers it, but I like it. If you've got any other ideas or want to expand on that one, you should check out this thread http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?...=37239&st=0

[I Scream Clone]

Whilst it is important TLC releases a Castle line to me and others, it is inevitable that there will be some repetition. It is after all mostly based on historical facts when it came to weaponry etc. I'm sure designers come up with other ideas along the way, however they may not test well with focus groups of children. It is important to remember that TLC is always looking to sell to the next generation of children each time it launches a new line, hence the constant re-visitation of themes, Police Station, Space Ships, etc.

I don't find the new large Castle to be too interesting however the twin human factions are very appealing. The figures are nicely designed, and will surely make me want these sets moreso.

Well i personally wouldn't want ancient history theme to replace castle .

I feel like there can be other Historical themes, however we are spoiled at the moment with PoP and HPotter, so until these sets are discontinued I cannot foresee more than one truly non licensed Historical theme existing.

Lego does make a big deal about the modularity of certain sets, but doesn't really expand upon the line. Perhaps as others have mentioned above, that this is a way in which they could move in future.

I really hope we are spoiled again with another AFOL Castle set in the new Kingdoms theme as I prefer brick built walls to big junorized pieces.

A good point was made early on about the Castle adhering to the land that it is built upon, and whilst the older Castles look nice, I have never been a fan of the chunky pre-molded baseplates. Yes the castles themselves have more playability, but yuck to the baseplates.

So in some sort of conclusion to all my random points, yes the Castle theme is repetitive, but I will continue to enjoy it, even if it is just for the great figures and factions, if the sets are constantly rehashes, as I will just build my own fortresses and houses.

[Corvus]

Personally, I'm loving the turn towards the old classic castle theme. I was really getting tired of the 'Humans vs. Orcs' theme. I liked the Skellies, and I was hoping that we'd get a third faction of baddies, but that was not to be.

After seeing so many themes of humans versus monsters, I'm just happy to see some more open, human vs. human action. I understand that some of you, in particular you adults who had classic castle sets as kids, may think it's getting boring. And you're right, it can get boring, if TLC sticks to its timeless strategy of generic castles.

But, I think we've seen TLC move in a new direction. TLC can provide new things- this year, it's new figs with greathelms, and other parts in dark silver. I know we saw figs with leg printing in the toy fairs, but that looks like it's not going to happen.

I think lego still has a lot of fresh ideas to try. I would personally love to see them try to move in a new direction with castle, perhaps something similar to forestmen or wolfpack. If lego can manage to keep its castle themes seperate and distinct, I think castle can survive for a long, long time.

[WesternOutlaw]

Honestly, I would have thought that the Pirate theme would have outlasted Castle with a few different Castle sub-themes offered in the past year. Instead, we're soon to get Kingdoms - although I like the red roofs. They remind me of Playmobil.

[Athos]

That's funny. Because I'm sick of red roofs. I don't need any more red slope bricks. I'd have much preferred another color.

Steve

[blueandwhite]

Honestly, I would have thought that the Pirate theme would have outlasted Castle with a few different Castle sub-themes offered in the past year. Instead, we're soon to get Kingdoms - although I like the red roofs. They remind me of Playmobil.

I was also quite surprised by the short run of the new Pirates line. That being said, I wasn't really expecting Castle to go anywhere. As I understand things Castle has traditionally had a very strong following. Kingdoms may only last one year (I see it being very AFOL influenced much like the Pirates line) however I don't think Castle is going anywhere anytime soon.

[WesternOutlaw]

That's funny. Because I'm sick of red roofs. I don't need any more red slope bricks. I'd have much preferred another color.

You know - I had not thought of that. Now that you mention it, I've got a lot of red roof pieces as well (although they're the 3x4s). I was thinking of the overall look, and I can't say that I recall seeing a red-roofed LEGO castle as an official set.

[Sandy]

I myself welcome the red roofs. I don't have any big red roof-slopes, just some blue, dark blue, sand green and heckuva lot of black roof-slopes.

I find the new factions very aesthetically pleasing when it comes to their colors and crests. While lions and dragons have been seen many times before as emblems, they also help bring the "classic" feeling to the new factions that so many have been missing.

But this topic shows that fans can never be fully pleased: either something is too traditional ("cliché"), or then it's too far from it.

[Etzel]

Since this set was such a great source of red roof slopes I would have preferred a different colour for the roofs. But I guess red isn't a bad roof colour representing roofing-tiles of burnt clay, although dark red would have been better.

As for the main subject of the topic, I'm not tired of Castle but I find it hard to build up the same excitement for Kingdoms as I had when the Fantasy Era came out. FE was the breakthrough for the return of the classic style IMO. At last we got back a castle without a raised baseplate, we got a good generic looking human faction, the accessories were great and in lovely colours and the buildings wasn't just big moulded pieces but often cleverly build with lots of useful bricks and plates.

I see Kingdoms more as a continuation of the FE than as a new theme, the architecture of the buildings and the fashion of the minifigs are very similar to the Crown knights IMO. And I like that, no question about that! It's just not that big change as when we went from KK2 to FE I think that as long the Castle line is giving me parts in good colours and interesting minifigs I will not care if the set designs are repetitive or boring, it's not a big factor for me.

[WesternOutlaw]

But this topic shows that fans can never be fully pleased: either something is too traditional ("cliché"), or then it's too far from it.

Not exactly. Many have been collecting Castle for a long time. Themes do get old, regardless of how many new sets LEGO offers. It's like City Fire and Police Stations. We know that we'll always see them in one shape or another; but then again, for the adult fan who has been collecting/buying LEGO for 10-20 years (maybe longer), do you really want another Fire station in your town? Maybe, but how about a Fire Brigade? Timeless themes can become tiresome if not reinvigorated well. Sets like the Medieval Market Village and Dwarve Mine has helped, but is it enough to keep the interest of Castle fans who have thousands of grey/bley pieces with more grey castles offered? Perhaps? but not all Castle fans may think so, and that's not to say they're displeased with seeing LEGO Castle continue (at least I'm not).

[fred67]

Since this set was such a great source of red roof slopes ....

I've never been able to get that set. It's not in our local LEGO store, and it's not available to me online ("not available in your country").

I just had to order a whole bunch off bricklink.

Ok, that's a bit off topic; I've actually partially built a mini-castle (or, more correctly, mini walled city); and I used red roofs and thought it looked quite nice for a "good guy" city.

Black... red... brown (wood) would be nice. I could go either way.

My dilemma when collecting castle is this: I love the castles, but I also want a "layout," like a train layout (but without trains, in this case, for obvious reasons), and there's only so much you can put on a... let's say 8x4 foot table. I'll definitely be picking up the Hogwarts Castle, too... that one can actually be part of my train layout, though.

I don't want to just keep putting them on my shelves.

[Svelte]

Maybe what Castle needs is a proper UCS-style set, as many people have suggested in this forum over the years - something in between the intimidating mega-MOCs that we see in the CC contests and the more cleverly, 'technique-oriented' Exclusives such as the Modular Houses. Something with a nice level of detail and interesting design, but not so massive as to require a 64x64 layout, for example

10193 MMV is a lovely set, but not really revolutionary. I was surprised that it didn't inspire more similar creations or expansions to the villages, to be honest, as Cafe Corner did. Maybe MMV was very nice, but just not exciting enough to inspire such devotion?

[General Redwater]

I think that Castel will be around for many years to come. Little kids love playing with knights and dragons, but that is just my opinion.

[KristofBD]

The Fantasy Era brought waked me from my dark ages because its return to the classic style was revolutionary. Though it is clearly no radical innovative line, I think the new Kingdoms line is promising and shows that Castle can be a good blend of old and new.

My guess is that this first year of Kingdoms only consists of the "setting the stage" sets, while the more revolutionary sets will be released in the second/third year - similar to the FE-timeline. The FE was clearly a line where continuity and innovativeness were blended. The Kingdoms line resembles the FE a lot. I'm optimistic. The Kingdoms Advent calender includes some villagers and shows a more mixed setting including both civilian and war buildings. This hints at more civilian sets - although we obviously cannot be sure about that for now.

Regarding the Bley Brick Syndrome, I agree that the main castle of Kingdoms is more of the same. However, the second castle (the black tower) is not bley at all, and is excellent for MOCing. If you don't like the bley, don't buy the main castle.

Lastly, it seems that castle is turning a bit into the licensed sets when it comes to the minifigs. The last wave of the FE included great detailed minifigs such as the king, the queen, the golden knight, the troll witch and the jester; and it seems that the kingdoms advent calender will present more of such figures (e.g. the queen and the prince). The figs alone are a good reason to buy the new sets, and it seems to only get better when it comes to minifigs.

Again, I think it shows that indeed Castle will always both be partially unsurprising and yet at the same time partially creative, just like all the other traditional lines. Hence, I vote timeless.

[voltio]

Maybe what Castle needs is a proper UCS-style set, as many people have suggested in this forum over the years - something in between the intimidating mega-MOCs that we see in the CC contests and the more cleverly, 'technique-oriented' Exclusives such as the Modular Houses. Something with a nice level of detail and interesting design, but not so massive as to require a 64x64 layout, for example

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this: a "UCS Castle" set would have to be majestic enough to keep AFOLS and TFOLS interested in Castle without pricing itself out of the market (I'm looking at YOU, 10179 Millennium Falcon! ). Also, as you said, the UCS-style set should be built to match the scale of existing sets. The massive modular Town buildings violated this rule successfully, but I'm positive that more collectors would have purchased the modulars had those sets not dwarfed the rest of the City line. The 10210 Imperial Flagship is a great example of what we're talking about: semi-manageable price ($180), more majestic than any Pirate vessel of the past, but clearly compatible with the Pirate theme.

The only problem with the Imperial Flagship is that it launched at the close of Pirates; hopefully Lego will learn from that mistake by launching a Kingdoms UCS-style set sooner rather than later.

And on the subject of MMV: As beautiful as 10193 may be, Tudor-style buildings have existed in Lego form since...gosh, before Daniel Siskind's Blacksmith Shop. Those inspired by that building style probably built their MOCs in the early 2000s, as the necessary parts were already available by then.

[blueandwhite]

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this: a "UCS Castle" set would have to be majestic enough to keep AFOLS and TFOLS interested in Castle without pricing itself out of the market (I'm looking at YOU, 10179 Millennium Falcon! ). Also, as you said, the UCS-style set should be built to match the scale of existing sets. The massive modular Town buildings violated this rule successfully, but I'm positive that more collectors would have purchased the modulars had those sets not dwarfed the rest of the City line. The 10210 Imperial Flagship is a great example of what we're talking about: semi-manageable price ($180), more majestic than any Pirate vessel of the past, but clearly compatible with the Pirate theme.

The only problem with the Imperial Flagship is that it launched at the close of Pirates; hopefully Lego will learn from that mistake by launching a Kingdoms UCS-style set sooner rather than later.

And on the subject of MMV: As beautiful as 10193 may be, Tudor-style buildings have existed in Lego form since...gosh, before Daniel Siskind's Blacksmith Shop. Those inspired by that building style probably built their MOCs in the early 2000s, as the necessary parts were already available by then.

I'm not sure I agree with you. Personally I have no interest in a UCS set that is in scale with the mainline sets. The very point of these exclusives is to present AFOLs and other enthusiasts with a more elaborate product that wouldn't otherwise be possible in the mainline. Any AFOL-oriented castle exlcusive should really be considerably larger than the mainline. The MMV is a perfect example of this. I wouldn't want to see an exclusive built on a smaller scale than this even if the set is as cliche as you are suggesting.

As for the trend towards tudor buildings in the early 2000s; I still think that it was probably inspired predominantly by Siskind's book-style shops. I can't really think of many AFOL examples that predate Siskind's work. Tudor-style buildings made a lot of sense at the time as many AFOLs lacked the necessary elements to build large-scale MOCs. Larger castles were a lot less refined back then, and fewer fans had the resources to build them. Tudor shops allowed us Castle freaks to build in our respective theme without necessarily dropping $2000-4000 on grey bricks.

With many fans having amassed large collections of bricks these days, a UCS set really should be something special. Building it to match the mainline really defeats that purpose considering how out of scale the Castle line is.

[Capt. Thomas Foolery]

Personally, I'd like to see LEGO delve into ancient history themes with Roman, Greek, and Egyptian civilizations and leave the Dark Ages in the dark for a few more years.

So what are your thoughts? Is LEGO Castle timeless or has it become tiresome?

I'd have to agree with you here. The new Kingdoms line looks...well, boring. Nothing particularly exciting in it or about it. At least with the past Castle sets, an element of fantasy was introduced (whether you approved or not, at least it was a fresh new approach). This new line just seems tired and kind of lazy.

I'd much rather see a whole new line be launched, though I understand why TLG would be timid to do so. If it fails, then it fails big so it's best to go with what you know will get at least stable sales. But just imagine a Mythology line! You could draw from Greek, Roman, AND Egyptian. Gods and goddesses. The architectural possibilities are nearly endless. And when you're tired of playing Mythology, simply tear off a few bricks and it's a temple for Indiana Jones to explore.

[Tyrant]

I'd have to agree with you here. The new Kingdoms line looks...well, boring. Nothing particularly exciting in it or about it. At least with the past Castle sets, an element of fantasy was introduced (whether you approved or not, at least it was a fresh new approach). This new line just seems tired and kind of lazy.

I'd much rather see a whole new line be launched, though I understand why TLG would be timid to do so. If it fails, then it fails big so it's best to go with what you know will get at least stable sales. But just imagine a Mythology line! You could draw from Greek, Roman, AND Egyptian. Gods and goddesses. The architectural possibilities are nearly endless. And when you're tired of playing Mythology, simply tear off a few bricks and it's a temple for Indiana Jones to explore.

I would also like to see those things, I just think they can coexist with Castle. Castle and Pirates coexisted for quite a while during the original Pirates run and they are both "historic". Castle is presently coexisting with the current Pirates line (well, it was), the new Prince of Persia line (which is as historic as Castle), and to an extent the Harry Potter line (which has a castle and fantastic elements so there is some crossover) so I think they can coexist with another "historical" line. I would like to see one myself, I just don't think you have to put Castle on hold to get it.

[Nikkiwi]

I'd much rather see a whole new line be launched, though I understand why TLG would be timid to do so. If it fails, then it fails big so it's best to go with what you know will get at least stable sales. But just imagine a Mythology line! You could draw from Greek, Roman, AND Egyptian. Gods and goddesses. The architectural possibilities are nearly endless. And when you're tired of playing Mythology, simply tear off a few bricks and it's a temple for Indiana Jones to explore.

Didn't TLG attempt this with the Viking range (which is another period that overlaps well with the castle, IMHO). And my understanding was that the Viking line bombed. So I can see why TLG might want to stick with the "tried and true" castle stuff. And the new PoP line gives the chance for a Crusade setting for those who want to get away from the European castle style.

Just my 2c

[snefroe]

ok, clearly i missed this topic when it first started... damn, my lurking skills are still not very well trained...

what does it mean, "cliché"?

1) to me, it means "taking the same, well known, path over and over again, only using those essential elements of the theme that define the actual theme and make it recognisable to all, fans and non-fans alike, as "castle" (in this case). call it "timeless" or "cliché",... that's just playing with words...

2) However, "cliché" also seems to suggest something negative, we've seen these elements in this particular combination so often, it no longer stimulates us to take it one step further, and create mocs and stories of our own... It's become a drag, it's become boring and no longer inspire us to go beyond the cliché ourselves... It's the opposite of "innovation", "new ideas", "creativity"... However, that's subjective. Many love a good old Western film, even though you pretty well know how it's going to end.

There's no question about the first arguement. Yes, castle follows the lines of the cliché: every person associates "medieval times" with castles and knights, fighting each other, with crusaders and peasants... After all, Lego is not into the business of writing a complete and acurate history of medieval times, they're into selling sets, making money. yes, this last theme, without its reference to fantasy elements, is far closer to what everybody recognizes as the "true" cliché of "Castle". To me it seems the theme has gone back to its roots, after having expanded to all sorts of fantastic subthemes. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing... It's what Lego does best: it picks out the basic lines of a theme and translates it into a Lego world, making a lot of money in the process. Nope, you can't say Lego took many riscs with these sets, they're very close to the old thing... for instance, i'd love to get a wooden castle for a change... Still, i'd rather have this then the old Vikings theme, because, in the old vikings theme, they took all the elements that people associate with vikings, regardless of any historical truth. At least they can't screw up people's knoledge on medieval times with these sets and figs... however, i don't expect them to create a theme that actualy is historically correct...

So i guess, the real question here, is not so much, "is castle cliché", but "do you think castle is boring, unattractive and not really what you were hoping for"? Again the answer would be really subjective. Some say yes, because they want huge UCS castles that allow them to dream away, they want large armies, high quality parts and constructions in large numbers. Others will say yes because they're bored with bley, or never really accepted bley in the first place. And then there's a fantasy freak that really wanted some sort of "Lord of the rings"... On the other side, you'll have your young fan who's never seen a classic castle theme before, and he will probably love this...

[The Eye]

It's cliche if you want it to be. Lego is all about creativity. Never forget that you can just take a castle apart and re-fit it, even if the box ideas or storyline is not to your liking.

[Piranha]

Perhaps it has. However there are always still those ravid castle fans out there

However that would be like saying City has too. I never get tired of the same thing with City, Fire, Police, Construction

I would like change up between historical themes every few years or so like, Castle, Vikings, Ninja, Greek, etc.

That would be a nice cycle so when Castle comes around again we can appreciate it, it more. Also change ups in the theme itself, like the switch from fantasy was brilliant for Kingdoms this year. How about Forest men oriented the following year?