LEGO #21344 - Orient Express

[Selander]

Yes, we can !

[Carefree_Dude]

For kicks I went ahead to see what it would cost to make an emerald night in dark blue. 

If you substitute a small handful of more expensive parts, you can build a dark blue emerald night for under 100 bucks, only using new parts. (this price doesn't include the large drivers, since I already have a bunch of those)

[Shiva]

@Sven J I think that so far, Bayerische P 3/5 N, is the closest to the 21344 locomotive? From that german wikipedia article.

[Sven J]

@Shiva Well, regarding the wheel arrangement maybe... However, as far as I know, Bavarian steam locos were dark green, not blue (except for one or two engines that were specially painted for exhibitions). And, to be honest, I think that the Lego engine doesn't resemble ANY of the locomotives that could likely have pulled the OE...
But I accept that the majority here thinks differently and tries to find matching prototypes.

[Shiva]

@Sven J Well, closest. But hard match? That, we will not find.

The Ideas locomotive in real bricks and working, that I would like to see. With non LEGO driving wheels. BBB or BTD wheels.

I actually like the passenger cars more, than the original.

ToledoRails's video, I do agree on it.

[Sven J]

6 minutes ago, Shiva said:

I actually like the passenger cars more, than the original.

So do I. All my criticism is only about the locomotive.

[Shiva]

Yep, it could have been a bit different. It's simple, but not bad. And I do like it anyway :)

[lifeinplastic]

Can anyone tell if the side writing is stickered?

[M_slug357]

Thanks @Glenn Holland y @ToledoRails for that video!

.

There is a way that would make this set redeemable in my mind— What if both of the coaches have alternate builds a la the classic Super Chief coaches? That would instantly double the value of this set and make for an easy justification to buy a 2nd set! Then, with 2x worth of engine& tender parts you could make just about any wheel arrangement you like that suits your needs/ region…

[Hod Carrier]

4 hours ago, Wise lego owl said:

The design is based on SNCF 230.G.353.

I appreciate the arguments in support, but the problem is that it doesn’t look quite enough like it to be certain (at least not to my eyes). There’s any number of 4-6-0s that it could be based on, including quite a few that would never have been used on these trains.

4 hours ago, *thomas* said:

You are correct, but why did LEGO choose this very generic locomotive design? Since the initial entry was clearly based off something French, why not make something French? 

They have chosen a very specific train (well, not a train, but a company) to represent, whynot go 'all in'. 

Primarily for the reasons I gave. There is no “Orient Express locomotive”. The Orient Express brand is all about luxury travel, not about the motive power. In some respects having a generic design leaves the door open for builders to take their own direction and make the locomotive they want to pair with the train.

[Glenn Holland]

Thanks all who have enjoyed the video. Lot of thoughts, lot of criticism (some fair, I'll give you that). I remain excited for the set and more trains from Lego in the future.

8 minutes ago, M_slug357 said:

What if both of the coaches have alternate builds a la the classic Super Chief coaches? That would instantly double the value of this set and make for an easy justification to buy a 2nd set!

Through the magic of your own creativity, you can do exactly that. ;)

[Space78]

Nice video, especially showing all the images, closeups, angles.  Having looked at the original images and the catalog images, I do really like the coaches in the set.  I think they are much better.  They "rounded" a lot of the edges nicely.  The more I look at the complete set, the more it does seem the engine fits OK with it proportion-wise.  While Lego train fanatics would like a dark green engine, when I envision that color with those nice blue/gold coaches, I'm not sure I'd like that color combination.  Also, from a consumer standpoint, I think the engine has to be the same color scheme as the coaches.

One thing that comes to mind though, is could Lego offer these items in the same way the Santa Fe sets were offered?  Why not sell the engine separate from the cars?  In the Santa Fe set the engines were separate, and there were two car sets, one made two different cars and one made three.  Or, to bring costs down, they could sell the steam engine and one coach as a set, then offer a separate set for a coach with some options for different builds like the Santa Fe cars.  That would be super cool in my opinion, and I think they'd end up selling more sets.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Space78

[*thomas*]

1 hour ago, Sven J said:

So do I. All my criticism is only about the locomotive.

I'm with you on this one. 

If we need to search for the prototype LEGO has used, than:

A LEGO has used a bad prototype
B the prototype doesn't exist

Either way: they messed up. 

[Carefree_Dude]

One thing I think is funny is how much I care that a train can run on Lego track. 

For instance I straight up didn't buy the UCS Hogwarts express because it cannot run on a track. 

Meanwhile I have purchased the crocodile locomotive, and even installed a motor, but have yet to actually run it on a track; it's remained a display piece. 

But I feel good knowing that I could run it on a track if I wanted to. 

[ToledoRails]

9 minutes ago, Carefree_Dude said:

"But I feel good knowing that I could run it on a track if I wanted to."

Felt that. It's not that I don't want it to, but when guests are over I can throw it on the track and say, "check this out."

[Hod Carrier]

3 hours ago, Carefree_Dude said:

I wouldn't be surprised if a dark blue one was fairly cheap. 

Not so sure the coaches are dark blue. Just by happy accident I currently have a pile of dark blue parts on my table, and these photos aren’t as dark as those. If it’s not standard blue (and I’m not convinced that it isn’t) my money would be on dark azure. 

[Lyichir]

1 hour ago, Hod Carrier said:

Not so sure the coaches are dark blue. Just by happy accident I currently have a pile of dark blue parts on my table, and these photos aren’t as dark as those. If it’s not standard blue (and I’m not convinced that it isn’t) my money would be on dark azure. 

It's absolutely not dark azure. Dark azure is much lighter, even lighter than regular blue. It seems pretty clear to me that this train is dark blue/earth blue.

Keep in mind that set photos (including both product photos and "lifestyle" photos such as these) are done professionally, which means that even before they've been edited they can already opt for the most flattering lighting and staging to show off their detail as clearly as possible. I don't mean this in a bad way! But dark blue on your table under whatever lighting you have normally isn't necessarily going to look the same as it does on a well-lit photo set.

[Space78]

I know the catalog images appeared for a short time, then were taken down.  Does anyone know when the catalog with the OE will be officially posted?  Do we have an expected date from past experience?

[Hod Carrier]

54 minutes ago, Lyichir said:

It's absolutely not dark azure. Dark azure is much lighter, even lighter than regular blue. It seems pretty clear to me that this train is dark blue/earth blue.

Keep in mind that set photos (including both product photos and "lifestyle" photos such as these) are done professionally, which means that even before they've been edited they can already opt for the most flattering lighting and staging to show off their detail as clearly as possible. I don't mean this in a bad way! But dark blue on your table under whatever lighting you have normally isn't necessarily going to look the same as it does on a well-lit photo set.

Well we shall see when the set comes out. I understand entirely what you’re saying about lighting, etc, but I’m standing by my assertion that it’s not dark blue. 

[RichardGoring]

Great video, and good points. I think it's great, and will definitely be getting it. I wouldn't have got it if it were a shelf display piece only.

[LordsofMedieval]

That video glosses over one very dramatic and simple point: people are able to get locomotives built with XXL wheels to run smoothly around Lego's smallest curves. 

There is nothing technical precluding Lego from designing a satisfactory passenger locomotive with big wheels. The "if it had large drivers, it HAD to be a display piece" argument is a red herring. 

[Carefree_Dude]

I have a bunch of XXL drivers from a scrapped attempt at an overzealous Union Pacific Big Boy Moc; 

 

May decide to finally start taking parts from it; i gave up on it like 5 years ago. 


(Man i had so many great ideas for the thing. 4x XL motors, fully wheel suspension, driven by driver wheels.... Once I finally got it all together though, the suspension didn't work as intended and I many redesign attempts failed, and I got burnt out on the project)

[zephyr1934]

 

10 hours ago, Shiva said:

A blue "Emerald Night" might look quite nice. @Carefree_Dude

Well, modified version.

Indeed, I bet that locomotive is over half way to a blue EN, it even has the gold stripes. That is probably the easiest path to an ok locomotive

 

10 hours ago, ToledoRails said:

Glenn Holland and I have prepared a joint statement regarding our thoughts on this set, the design changes, and trying to bring a rational viewpoint to quite frankly... the nastiest reception I've ever seen for a Lego Train set. 

As I said earlier in this thread, I really don't think lego will ever do anything longer than 3 L drivers with 9 stud spacing between the axles. This length already starts to have problems in R40 curves. Folks here know how to tweak it to work, but the average customer will not.

 

10 hours ago, Carefree_Dude said:

Not fair to say that this is the nastiest reception, you should have saw the reactions to 4561 and 4559 as followups to the metroliner. 

And that was well deserved... could you imagine going in that direction? But anyway, back on topic...

 

5 hours ago, Lyichir said:

Keep in mind that set photos (including both product photos and "lifestyle" photos such as these) are done professionally, which means that even before they've been edited they can already opt for the most flattering lighting and staging to show off their detail as clearly as possible. I don't mean this in a bad way! But dark blue on your table under whatever lighting you have normally isn't necessarily going to look the same as it does on a well-lit photo set.

I'm 65% certain it is dark blue (and I'll be horribly disappointed if it isn't). If it is dark blue a lot of folks will also use this as a parts pack.

 

[Carefree_Dude]

23 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

 

Indeed, I bet that locomotive is over half way to a blue EN, it even has the gold stripes. That is probably the easiest path to an ok locomotive

 

As I said earlier in this thread, I really don't think lego will ever do anything longer than 3 L drivers with 9 stud spacing between the axles. This length already starts to have problems in R40 curves. Folks here know how to tweak it to work, but the average customer will not.

 

And that was well deserved... could you imagine going in that direction? But anyway, back on topic...

 

I'm 65% certain it is dark blue (and I'll be horribly disappointed if it isn't). If it is dark blue a lot of folks will also use this as a parts pack.

 

I was so upset about 4559 but I got it anyways and rebuilt it as a weird black and yellow metroliner with two black and yellow club cars. 

But yeah, I agree a dark blue/blue EN is the  easiest route. You can even do gold striping tape on the boiler. I actually made one a few years back. 

 

[zephyr1934]

8 hours ago, Hod Carrier said:

Not so sure the coaches are dark blue. Just by happy accident I currently have a pile of dark blue parts on my table, and these photos aren’t as dark as those. If it’s not standard blue (and I’m not convinced that it isn’t) my money would be on dark azure. 

I think dark azure is way too light. To my eye it looks like it is about half way between normal blue and dark blue, but dark blue can photograph lighter than it looks in person. I just did some sampling, first using the catalog photo of the new set, all colors in CMYK

Random point sample on loco in photoshop,

96, 67, 17, 3

Random point sample on loco after auto color in photoshop

95, 65, 14 1

Random point on photo of my dark blue MNS locomotive

96, 84, 6, 1

 

Using color tables of Lego colors

Dark Blue

100, 70, 36, 40

Blue

100, 47, 0, 0

Dark Azure (converting RGB to CMYK)

70, 25, 12, 0

 

According to the BL color guide, there are 4.1k parts in blue, 2.3k parts in dark blue and 0.8k parts in dark azure.

 

So I'll be you a 1x1 brick, if its dark azure you win I owe you a dark azure 1x1 brick, if its dark blue I win and you owe me a dark blue 1x1 brick, if its another color we both lose. Winner pays shipping (grin)