10305 Lion Knights' Castle 90th anniversary set

[Poco Lypso]

5 hours ago, Merlo said:

Relatively, not absolutely. That is to say 1992 Lego wouldn't be all that great in 2022. But 1992 Lego was much better in 1992 than 2022 Lego is in 2022. Back then Lego was pretty close to checking all the boxes on what you can do with Lego given the limitations. Nowadays they're nowhere near. Not only are they not pushing the envelope, they're kinda sitting on their laurels and going with "this is fine" approach.

thats often the case with established brands. new brands have to work harder and provide more in order to sway over customers. lego however is in a unique spot with no real competition and a huge mass market appeal.

[Wesley D]

5 hours ago, Merlo said:

Relatively, not absolutely. That is to say 1992 Lego wouldn't be all that great in 2022. But 1992 Lego was much better in 1992 than 2022 Lego is in 2022. Back then Lego was pretty close to checking all the boxes on what you can do with Lego given the limitations. Nowadays they're nowhere near. Not only are they not pushing the envelope, they're kinda sitting on their laurels and going with "this is fine" approach.

It's funny how opinions differ. I have the feeling the designers spared no efforts and did all they could to make us this fantastic castle! It's all and more than I could imagine. I'm even LEGO really gratefeful for offering us such a fine set!

I'll buy multiple sets, at least one for me to display and one for my sons to play with.

[dimc]

3 hours ago, MAB said:

I don't think you have to play with figures like dolls to enjoy interior detail.  You can also pose figures inside a castle (or any building) to make it come alive. It just depends what side you want to display, the inside or outside.

I love being able to open it up and have detail. Both is important! After a long day of fighting, the knights probably want some food and relaxation, and the peasantry are definitely working in gardens and tending animals. It brings the whole scene to life!

[jodawill]

3 hours ago, MAB said:

I don't think you have to play with figures like dolls to enjoy interior detail.  You can also pose figures inside a castle (or any building) to make it come alive. It just depends what side you want to display, the inside or outside.

Yeah, I get that. I'm just more interested in the battle aspect myself when I'm building, not what the people who live in the castle would be doing on an average day. It doesn't bother me that it has an interior. I'm just totally indifferent.

15 minutes ago, Wesley D said:

It's funny how opinions differ. I have the feeling the designers spared no efforts and did all they could to make us this fantastic castle! It's all and more than I could imagine. I'm even LEGO really gratefeful for offering us such a fine set!

I'll buy multiple sets, at least one for me to display and one for my sons to play with.

It's really hard for me to take anyone seriously if they don't think a lot of effort was put into the design of this set. Yes, it could have been more colorful, but that isn't what they were going for. I wouldn't even consider buying this set if it was some kind of Cinderella castle, as some people seem to have wanted?

[Poco Lypso]

1 hour ago, jodawill said:

Yeah, I get that. I'm just more interested in the battle aspect myself when I'm building, not what the people who live in the castle would be doing on an average day. It doesn't bother me that it has an interior. I'm just totally indifferent.

It's really hard for me to take anyone seriously if they don't think a lot of effort was put into the design of this set. Yes, it could have been more colorful, but that isn't what they were going for. I wouldn't even consider buying this set if it was some kind of Cinderella castle, as some people seem to have wanted?

I think people would have liked a little bit more variation on the grey walls here and there like for example in this moc:

 

 

 

[Follows Closely]

^ That would inflate the piece count quickly. It would also set a precedence for future sets that would be unreasonable at the lower price points. I do think that 10305 suffers slightly from the big bley wall, but easily overlooked by this starving medieval fan.

[jodawill]

28 minutes ago, Follows Closely said:

^ That would inflate the piece count quickly. It would also set a precedence for future sets that would be unreasonable at the lower price points. I do think that 10305 suffers slightly from the big bley wall, but easily overlooked by this starving medieval fan.

I guess everyone has their preferences. That's a nice MOC, but it looks like a MOC, just like the blacksmith shop looks like a MOC. I'm glad 10305 looks like a Lego set. I also prefer the gray walls over the moss covered type, like Helm's Deep. I like growth on the side, like the leaves on the side of forestmen sets and the trees coming out of 10305. But I'm personally not a fan of colored bricks splattered across the building. I guess I just have very simple tastes. I'm very happy with what we got. Even more importantly, I feel like this is an excellent selection of parts for making my own creations in the style of Lego I like to build.

[TeriXeri]

I actually like the fact that the walls are a single color, there's good contrast between the walls, rocks and colorful elements around it, making it feel like a very classic type of set, and considering this is 90th anniversary.

Masonry brick being spread across the wall do help a lot with the texture, and the brick-built areas around windows definately add depth.

It's clear the Blacksmith had a different design approach with the mosswork and textured tiling, and damaged plaster on the upper floors, but that set also was mainly based on an even bigger/more textured IDEAS submission.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by TeriXeri

[Triceron]

I'm okay with the colors of the single monotone grey, but I prefer it broken up with some dark greys here and there.

Like how even the classic Wall plates have some dark grey stonework, this could have helped add some color variety without being overly contrasted.

[Lyichir]

16 minutes ago, Triceron said:

I'm okay with the colors of the single monotone grey, but I prefer it broken up with some dark greys here and there.

 

Like how even the classic Wall plates have some dark grey stonework, this could have helped add some color variety without being overly contrasted.

I mean, there's still dark grey around the arrowslit windows of the new castle too, and around the towers. I often think of the more "scattered" dark grey stone patterns on some of those old wall panels to be more to compensate for the lack of texture, which these days can be achieved physically with things like masonry bricks to add detail without breaking up the color of the wall itself.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Lyichir

[woodford86]

10 hours ago, Roebuck said:

The 3 minifig heads I would not be surprised if came in other sets since it make little sense in using budget on them here.

I believe the first and second heads at least are recycled - I have the first one (not sure where from) and the second is from the CMF Troubadour I think

1 hour ago, Poco Lypso said:

I think people would have liked a little bit more variation on the grey walls here and there like for example in this moc:

I politely disagree! I find those builds that have a ton of tiny pieces to create texture are just too noisy/distracting. In the same train of thought I don't really like the massive builds, like someone else once said - eventually a big build is just...well...big.

I think 10305 has nailed the perfect level of detail in the walls, and the perfect size for a Lords/Knights castle as well. Just my opinion, Lego to me is about imagination and should always have a fun/fantastical element to it so realism is always secondary to me.

Edited July 21, 2022 by woodford86

[Aanchir]

13 hours ago, rebelpilot said:

I registered on EB to say I've really liked your posts and contributions to this topic, so thank you.

The U.S set names and factions are generally the accepted nomenclature for Castle but I'm now fascinated by the idea 
of Danish sets names and their translations. Do you have a link or resource that identifies the Danish
names, brickset doesn't seem to have Danish catalogues from that period?

I may just consider them now as gospel as Denmark is where they were designed.

Well, I'm flattered! Here's a spreadsheet where I've been gathering set, theme, subtheme, and character names from catalogs and other print media from various countries: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dT_lHtnZLce6EgssDvITRQ41bxtpykPIbyCFWYM84P8/edit?usp=sharing

It's sort of an eternal work-in-progress, and in hindsight there are parts I wish I'd organized better (I also wish I'd done better citing sources for some of these names so I could keep track of which are from catalogs, which are from comics/magazine ads, etc), but there's probably plenty there to sate your curiosity, even if it's far from comprehensive.

7 hours ago, MAB said:

I don't think you have to play with figures like dolls to enjoy interior detail.  You can also pose figures inside a castle (or any building) to make it come alive. It just depends what side you want to display, the inside or outside.

I didn't mean to imply that only kids who play with dolls or similar toys care about interior detail — just that formative childhood experiences playing with dollhouses can help condition kids to expect detailed interiors in a way that other toys like toy cars, robots, dinosaurs, or trains would not. And since we live in a world where boys are often encouraged to play with those sorts of toys and discouraged from playing with dolls/dollhouses… well, you get the idea.

Plus, as others here have recognized, set design is often a give-and-take, so sometimes putting a greater emphasis on interior detail means making compromises elsewhere (especially in KFOL-targeted sets, since they're typically constrained to lower price points than "premium" adult-targeted sets like the Lion Knights' Castle).
 

To give a non-Castle example: even many AFOLs who enjoy the detailed interiors of themes like Friends and Elves often express frustration with how many of those sets lack full side walls or roofs. But of course, since kids can see, access, and play with the full interiors more easily WITHOUT full side walls or roofs, the designers have less incentive to spend money on those features than they would in sets that are more exterior-focused.

Conversely, when an open-backed building DOES have full side walls and roofs, it can force the designers to reduce the depth (front-to-back) of the interiors or the amount of accessories and furniture inside — since that would make it hard to reach in and interact with stuff in the "front' of the building without knocking down stuff closer to the open back.
 

Hinged rooms like the ones in the Lion Knights' Castle can sometimes be a good solution to these problems, since it lets you split each room in half when displaying or playing/interacting with the interiors. This way you don't have to reach past the dining room table to interact with the harpsichord and fireplace, or reach past the toy Yellow Castle to interact with the bed and writing desk — they are split into separate narrow chambers with their own openings, despite combining into single, larger chambers when the set is closed.

But even that is not a perfect solution in all cases, particularly since it limits the size of a room's individual furnishings or how they can be arranged. Imagine if to access the interior of a schoolhouse set, you had to separate the half of the room containing the students' desks from half containing the teacher's desk and blackboard — meaning they would only be facing the blackboard when the room was closed! Or if to access the interior of a fire station's parking garage, you had to split it into two halves that were both too narrow for the fire truck to fit inside!
 

In fact, I've spent quite a bit of time on stud.io struggling to design a "great hall" for either this set or 31120 — and one of the major frustrations I've encountered is figuring out where the interior can be split so it can fold/unfold. After all, a table has to be pretty large to seat enough people and fit enough table settings for a big medieval feast/banquet, and unless the great hall is ENORMOUS, it's likely gonna be smack dab in the middle of the room!

Should I split the table itself in half down the middle? Should the room hinge into three sections instead of two? Should I make the room open vertically like the Modular Buildings instead of horizontally (which would make the whole floor plan accessible, but would not allow for a true "minifig's eye view")? I haven't yet come up with an answer I'm fully satisfied with. Maybe better/more experienced Castle builders than me would achieve better outcomes than me with this sort of thing.

[Triceron]

12 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

In fact, I've spent quite a bit of time on stud.io struggling to design a "great hall" for either this set or 31120 — and one of the major frustrations I've encountered is figuring out where the interior can be split so it can fold/unfold. After all, a table has to be pretty large to seat enough people and fit enough table settings for a big medieval feast/banquet, and unless the great hall is ENORMOUS, it's likely gonna be smack dab in the middle of the room!

Should I split the table itself in half down the middle? Should the room hinge into three sections instead of two? Should I make the room open vertically like the Modular Buildings instead of horizontally (which would make the whole floor plan accessible, but would not allow for a true "minifig's eye view")? I haven't yet come up with an answer I'm fully satisfied with. Maybe better/more experienced Castle builders than me would achieve better outcomes than me with this sort of thing.

I've been contemplating something similar.

I bought the Blacksmith with the intention of using its parts and general design to make an open Tavern display, full emphasis on the interiour with just hints of exterior walls on the side.  I ended up liking the official build too much to care to take it apart, but I think that's a good idea on using Stud.io to plan out mocs, I hadn't thought of this.

Is there a way to have Stud.io limit your parts usage based on sets?

[Aanchir]

30 minutes ago, Triceron said:

I've been contemplating something similar.

I bought the Blacksmith with the intention of using its parts and general design to make an open Tavern display, full emphasis on the interiour with just hints of exterior walls on the side.  I ended up liking the official build too much to care to take it apart, but I think that's a good idea on using Stud.io to plan out mocs, I hadn't thought of this.

Is there a way to have Stud.io limit your parts usage based on sets?

Yep! The easiest way is that once a set is inventoried on BrickLink you can click File>Import>Import Official LEGO Set and then input the set number to create a parts palette based on the set's inventory (which, unlike the default parts palette, will list the quantity of each brick that you have remaining next to its picture in the building palette panel).

Of course, that only limits the part usage to the contents of that one set, not to a collection of multiple sets. IDK if there's any quick and easy way to make a parts palette based on the latter.

[Poco Lypso]

3 hours ago, woodford86 said:

I believe the first and second heads at least are recycled - I have the first one (not sure where from) and the second is from the CMF Troubadour I think

I politely disagree! I find those builds that have a ton of tiny pieces to create texture are just too noisy/distracting. In the same train of thought I don't really like the massive builds, like someone else once said - eventually a big build is just...well...big.

I think 10305 has nailed the perfect level of detail in the walls, and the perfect size for a Lords/Knights castle as well. Just my opinion, Lego to me is about imagination and should always have a fun/fantastical element to it so realism is always secondary to me.

I guess that's where personal preference and taste comes in. 

While I personally do enjoy highly detailed mocs (Ralf Langers builds for example) I am also fully aware that it cannot be done an official lego set. Lots of great mocs will prolly fall apart if you 'touch' them and building techniques used prevent any meaningful interior from happening. 

Tbh I think its actually quite funny how this castle has been received so far. After a long castle drought things started to pick up slowly, blacksmith, creator castle, falcons and now lions. It's been quite a treat. You just can't get it right for everyone. And maybe it's also the price thats causing it. For some people (me included!) thats alot of money. 

 

 

[jodawill]

1 minute ago, Poco Lypso said:

Tbh I think its actually quite funny how this castle has been received so far. After a long castle drought things started to pick up slowly, blacksmith, creator castle, falcons and now lions. It's been quite a treat. You just can't get it right for everyone. And maybe it's also the price thats causing it. For some people (me included!) thats alot of money.

This is why I didn't buy 21322. For the price, there were just too many things I didn't like about it. It's a bunch of silly things that I could fix, but I felt like I might as well go buy one of the original pirate ships at that price. The island build just looked ridiculous and made up about half the pieces in the set. The biggest turnoff for me was the childish looking flags. At that price point (nearly twice what I'd want to pay for a pirate ship), there were just too many things I didn't like about it. I might regret that decision someday. But so far, I haven't regretted passing on it.

At the multi hundred dollar price point, a set either needs to be pretty much absolutely perfect, or provide plenty of parts for both large and small MOCs. 10305 is both (for me, at least). I love the kind of set where the more copies you buy, the more you can build. A lot of licensed sets aren't things you want multiple copies of. If you buy 10 castles, you get 10 times as many soldiers, horses, bricks, etc. I love that.

[BitByBrick]

For me this set may come down to “what am I willing to part with?” To free up display space and help pay the $400+ price tag, I can sell my classic castle 6086 (something I don’t want to do) Or I keep saving my money and hope this set is still available in 6 months or a year from now. 

Anyone have a good guess as to the shelf life of this set? If it sells out in a week (or less) will it ever be re-stocked? Will I be able to buy this around Christmas time? Maybe see this set at Target or online? Hoping it sticks around awhile… speaking as an AFOL that is strapped for cash at the moment. 

[Follows Closely]

Two years minimum. I would not be surprised if it is still available in 2027.

[Triceron]

Yeah, I can't see this set going away any time soon.

And I doubt it will sell out considering the hefty price tag and the niche audience being targetted.  It will sell big, don't get me wrong, but there are only so many people that have $400+ to spare on a set like this.

I mean, I'm highly anticipating this set, and I'm waiting for Black Friday 2023 before I even consider grabbing this.

[Sir Dano]

1 hour ago, Follows Closely said:

Two years minimum. I would not be surprised if it is still available in 2027.

I thought the same thing about Barracuda Bay but it was gone in a year and a half.

[Roebuck]

5 hours ago, Sir Dano said:

I thought the same thing about Barracuda Bay but it was gone in a year and a half.

Yes that was really odd! It was sold out several months at the time so I find it hard to not believe it could have gotten a longer shelf life if they managed to keep it in stock and sell more sets
However Lego have the numbers so maybe we are not such a big group of customers as we like to think 20% of the Lego buyers are AFOLs now, but maybe only 5% are interested in Pirates, Castle and Space sets from the 80ties and early 90ties. I guess we will see if we get more Pirates, Castle and Space sets in the next year or two

[Merlo]

19 hours ago, dimc said:

I love being able to open it up and have detail. Both is important! After a long day of fighting, the knights probably want some food and relaxation, and the peasantry are definitely working in gardens and tending animals. It brings the whole scene to life!

I love how our imagination lets us completely move away from the harsh realities of medieval life, with oppressors and the oppressed, yet you are already in your mind roleplaying scenes such as "Toil for me, peasant! And maybe later you can sleep in the barn next to the animals!"

I kid, I kid... :)

 

19 hours ago, jodawill said:

It's really hard for me to take anyone seriously if they don't think a lot of effort was put into the design of this set. Yes, it could have been more colorful, but that isn't what they were going for. I wouldn't even consider buying this set if it was some kind of Cinderella castle, as some people seem to have wanted?

I'd imagine a lot of effort goes into making even smaller Lego sets. And the designers are probably very skilled. However, it would be odd to think they put in a lot of thought into design when the castle is basically a bigger, grayer version of 31120. Even my favorite thing about it (the irregular shape) was an option with 31120. Personally, 31120 was way too colorful for me. I'm fine with castles having some texture or some imaginative builds to compensate for the flash the color would bring, assuming they have at least that.

 

18 hours ago, Poco Lypso said:

I think people would have liked a little bit more variation on the grey walls here and there like for example in this moc:

 

I 100% half-agree with this :) MOC level details would raise the price significantly and would be too big of a shock compared to what we expect to see.
But there are lego-lore-friendly non-piece-count-obstructive ways to add some detail, both whether you're going for something colorful or something more serious and gray.

 

16 hours ago, Triceron said:

I'm okay with the colors of the single monotone grey, but I prefer it broken up with some dark greys here and there.

Like how even the classic Wall plates have some dark grey stonework, this could have helped add some color variety without being overly contrasted.

Furthermore, the blocky-samey nature of this makes this look cute, and perfect for quick rebuilding as the pieces are big enough and everything fits with everything.
The smoother and rounder elements on 10305 make it feel like it's supposed to be a MOC level detail Castle but stops halfway where it's not a great playset and not a great display item, but something only half satisfying.

 

16 hours ago, woodford86 said:

I politely disagree! I find those builds that have a ton of tiny pieces to create texture are just too noisy/distracting. In the same train of thought I don't really like the massive builds, like someone else once said - eventually a big build is just...well...big.

I think 10305 has nailed the perfect level of detail in the walls, and the perfect size for a Lords/Knights castle as well. Just my opinion, Lego to me is about imagination and should always have a fun/fantastical element to it so realism is always secondary to me.

You can add interest without tiny pieces as well. And 10305 is indeed a massive build. The imagination element has probably left the station when they decided to inflate and gray-en 31120.

 

12 hours ago, Poco Lypso said:

While I personally do enjoy highly detailed mocs (Ralf Langers builds for example) I am also fully aware that it cannot be done an official lego set. Lots of great mocs will prolly fall apart if you 'touch' them and building techniques used prevent any meaningful interior from happening. 

Tbh I think its actually quite funny how this castle has been received so far. After a long castle drought things started to pick up slowly, blacksmith, creator castle, falcons and now lions. It's been quite a treat. You just can't get it right for everyone. And maybe it's also the price thats causing it. For some people (me included!) thats alot of money.

I agree. Even Lego's own more detailed sets tend to lose parts if you gently touch them in a wrong way.

I'd say my reality is: I'm an older fan, I want to feel what I felt for Castle sets 30 years ago. So small sets are fine, but more expensive and more interesting/sophisticated, something that would really make me reflect on the great imagination and skill of the creators.
Lego's reality, however is: what is the least risky strategy? Play on nostalgia, just dress it up to modern standards but don't upgrade many of the things that are now just too basic. Make it huge/pricey. Cash in.

 

8 hours ago, Sir Dano said:

I thought the same thing about Barracuda Bay but it was gone in a year and a half.

I remember that I complained about Barracuda Bay at the time. I'd like to apologize to everyone for that. BB is much more a set of the kind that had what made Lego great once.
Even though the idea wasn't theirs, they did choose to make it and the ship conversion was something that pleased both Lego and the buyers.
It's only compared to 10305 that I now realize the true value of BB.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Merlo

[MAB]

16 hours ago, Triceron said:

I'm okay with the colors of the single monotone grey, but I prefer it broken up with some dark greys here and there.

Like how even the classic Wall plates have some dark grey stonework, this could have helped add some color variety without being overly contrasted.

When I look at that, I assume they ran out of light grey hinges and had to use black. I prefer changes in texture or depth (offsetting forwards or backwards) over abrupt colour changes.

[Merlo]

13 minutes ago, MAB said:

When I look at that, I assume they ran out of light grey hinges and had to use black. I prefer changes in texture or depth (offsetting forwards or backwards) over abrupt colour changes.

I'm not sure about that myself. Can they "run out" of elements they make? :)

[MAB]

1 hour ago, Merlo said:

I'm not sure about that myself. Can they "run out" of elements they make? :)

They could not have enough and have to produce more. But that is not really what I meant.

I meant if someone presented that as a MOC, it looks like they ran out of the right colours. I know that is not what happened, and it was a design feature in many of the castles of the time, putting in black bricks around those big panels. To me it is not random (the regular placing of four black splotches around each window as below) so doesn't look like stone decay or variation in colour, but an intended decoration. But I guess it was the only way they could try to add interest at the time. To me using dark grey would at least have tied it into the decoration printed on the panels although a mixture of dark and light would have looked better still. That said, the red bricks used in Knight's Castle looks even worse.