[Debate] The 42110 Defender is the Best Lego Car Category Model Since the 8880

[thekoRngear]

Please don't shoot me. I merely present the topic. Whether it is agreeable or not is up to the members upon discussing it.

Howevr, I have to present my reasoning:

Lets not discuss any car which was released/developed before the 8880 since it is considered the pioneer/best among them. Then comes the 8448 which definitely has some improvements over it. It  is cool, but let's face it- it is not as popular/fan favorite as the 8880. It lacks Ackerman geometry, no HOG steering. In other words, its improvements did not seem as beefed up as someone would think about the successor to the 8880.
If we exclude the 8145 and 8645 (Enzo) which have no transmission and only rear diffs we can directly go to the 8070 which has no transmission gearbox, however it has distributional gearbox and motors to run the fancy functions like opening and closing doors. The path that Lego never followed in the later iterations.
Then we enter the UCS era where looks dominants the functions. The 8880 and the following successors were function-oriented while marginally improving the design and looks. The UCS 1:8 scales, on the other hand, are display-queens with complex transmission, independent suspension which are not fruitful due to not having the HOG steering and also the size being a big factor.

Meanwhile the 42110 comes.

Yes, it is a jeep, before staring the debate, it probably can be argued as to why a jeep is being considered as a successor to a supercar. Well, I think the 42110, despite being a jeep, can be dragged in for comparison or consideration because they work/function in similar ways. The Defender has by far one of the complex drivetrains, super cool gearbox with Hi/Lo/Reverse, 3 differentials, HOG steering, beefed up suspension and great looks both from interior and outside. 
If, we

• skip all the latest and greatest released in between 8880 and 42110 and
• also after the release of 42110 (till now, H2 2021), and
• the body structure (where the UCS series easily win due their massive details)

then, it seems the 42110 has everything beefed up over the 8880 minus the 4 wheel-steering and Ackerman geometry. The engine could be a factor too since 8880's engine looks and feels better than the inline 6-piston engine of the Defender.

Ever since the 42110 released (despite its initial quirks like making the gearbox right), it has been gaining massive popularity in an incredible manner. In 2021 people still buy it, mod it (both looks, functions), play with and display it.

BTW, we are talking about official sets and out-of-the-box condition. If we are to consider the MOCs then there are serious contender to 42110 (like the Brunojj supercars and such). 
The 8880 will always remain in its place, but which one is its true successor? The latest 42115 Sian or the 42110 Defender? Or any other set that you think more legit and valid; discuss it with my humble request to not get too much personal against each other.

Edited October 1, 2021 by thekoRngear

[Zerobricks]

I think you are confusing the words jeep and offroader. Jeep is a model/brand of a specific model.

I do agree the 42110 feels like a supercar, it has mostly all the bells and whistles of one with excpetion of:

• missing a proper piston engine - I'd prefer a proper inline 4 instead of brick built I6
• the gearbox could use more than 4 gears - I do of course know there were space constraints

[Jurss]

I don't have it, but have heard that there were strange issues with gearbox or something.

So, maybe, even with color mess, Siān finally was technically best technic model in a long time.

[brunojj1]

If the gearbox is counted as the main parameter for the judgement, we have to appoint the Bugatti with the innovative new orange gear selector used. However, IMO the first UCS car #42056 Porsche is a better candidate in terms of setting new standards. I favour it against the Bugatti & Sian because it´s built more parts-efficient. Of course there were flaws in it and it wasn´t really groundbraking radical new concept-wise. Anyway it was a game changer regarding the importance to have a UCS line at all, which TLG had recognized finally at the time. New arch panels, wheels with realistic offset, paddle-shifting, double clutch sequential gearbox were the modern features at least. Unfortunately the Defender isn´t really a car, even if its chassis consists mostly of a gearbox (which is flawed too and doesn´t use the new wave selector as well).

[Zerobricks]

2 minutes ago, brunojj1 said:

If the gearbox is counted as the main parameter for the judgement, we have to appoint the Bugatti with the innovative new orange gear selector used. However, IMO the first UCS car #42056 Porsche is a better candidate in terms of setting new standards. I favour it against the Bugatti & Sian because it´s built more parts-efficient. Of course there were flaws in it and it wasn´t really groundbraking radical new concept-wise. Anyway it was a game changer regarding the importance to have a UCS line at all, which TLG had recognized finally at the time. New arch panels, wheels with realistic offset, paddle-shifting, double clutch sequential gearbox were the modern features at least. Unfortunately the Defender isn´t really a car, even if its chassis consists mostly of a gearbox (which is flawed too and doesn´t use the new wave selector as well).

The defnder does use the wave selector though.

[brunojj1]

4 minutes ago, Zerobricks said:

The defnder does use the wave selector though.

Sorry for my ignorance, my bad ! I have the set standing unpacked in my closet, no time to build it so far and my son didn´t like to build yet. And I´m willing to revise my statement "it´s not a car" either - it´s just not a supercar .

Edited September 29, 2021 by brunojj1

[Gray Gear]

I disagree. First of all the defender isn't even a Supercar to begin with, not even a sportscar in general. 

The defender transmission is a mess.  Using a bunch of U-joints inside a transmission is a terrible idea and it is no suprise it doesn't work well.

Adding a HOG to any of the newer UCS Supercars is a lot easier than to fix the defender's transmission problems.

[bitbamboo]

Nice debate! Happy to jump in until it gets too emotional

 

Today's Lego context is very different from '94. Nothing will be as iconic as 8880: then aspect was overlooked in favour of functions; there were great B models included; and just one option. Currently we display as much as we play with the single A model among several sets on offer.

If we narrow down to Lego online shop, there are Bugatti, Sian and Defender. As you point out, the Defender delivers a competitive pack versus the 1:8's at half the price, but a boxy body in olive green is not supercar-ish at all. Looking is relevant for iconic sets in the scattergory "Lego supercars" 

Frankly speaking, I see 42110 Defender more a successor of 8466 4x4 Off-Roader . Both are great sets and deserve a place in the Lego supercar lineup but in fact they are offroaders so I might being unfair but I see them a bit, obviously, off

 

If someone asks for a current set as 8880 I'd recommmend the Sian because of the looks and the underside window; or any other of the UCS 1:8 cars (despite my fav is 8448). I guess that in ten years from now all of them will be higher at the top-of-mind than the Defender... or we might play the ad Neatness, as a disease?

[Celeri]

I would say it completely depends on which criteria are used to define what is a good (super)car. Personally, I would find difficult to give any title to any set among GT3, Chiron, Defender or Sian without being more specific:

• 42056 : as brunojj1 says, it is a pioneer which installed many of today's standards. I guess its goal was to answer the question "what would a supercar mean with modern technic parts?". The result, even imperfect, clearly delivers in this endeavour.
• 42083 : this set's main goal was clearly about showing TLG could achieve a (nearly) perfect sequential gearbox within a great-looking car and we can agree it worked. The scarce number of alternate models despite the set's lifespan suggests that people mostly don't want to disassemble it, so it succeeded.
• 42100 : I see this one as as an attempt to do a supercar without the "super" : its inventory clealy longs for supercar models, but TLG wanted to make a sidestep, something different from the flagship, which strong educative value on gearbox and transmission, but also for Technic/System parts integration. And since it was packaged within a reasonable budget (we can find it under 110€ sometimes), I am pretty sure it had much success.
• 42115 : this one is an accomplishment, a combination of everything the 3 others have tried to do in their own way and polishing the whole thing within a bold car design. And it does that very well : it has only few flaws (and no major one), but so many qualities that, even without innovating, it becomes the ultimate LEGO supercar.

[Erik Leppen]

42110 a good set? Let me quote myself from the Infuriating details topic...

On 8/30/2021 at 9:48 PM, Erik Leppen said:

[...] 42110, the olive green Defender, and the fact that it simply doesn't work. The whole chassis is basically one function, and it just doesn't run. Meaning that you buy a 2500 piece Technic set, and then when someone comes along and says, "so, being Technic and all, what does it do" the answer is basically, well, it's supposed to let the engine run sliiightly faster or slower depending on this lever here you can hardly access and then have the tableroom to roll 70 cm before seeing any movement in the engine at all, and then switch again and roll another meter to see any change. Now that's the theory. The practice is that whenever you do that, most of what you hear is clicking. So I set it to neutral so that at least it can be rolled around to play with the steering and suspension. I'd say this is a great example of how not to make a Technic set. Fortunately, I knew about the issues before I bought it and I bought it mostly for the parts, but it was still an even bigger disappointment than I expected. Luckily enough the suspension and steering worked rather well and it looked cool, so at least it left somewhat of a positive impression, but imagine what could have been done with all that chassis space instead.

Compare that to 8880, which had 4-wheel steering that can be easily demonstrated. A drivetrain easily visible from below, which can be shown. A gearbox with 4 gears that is simple enough to understand and whose gear ratios are far enough apart that you can actually see the difference, so that can be demonstrated. A clearly visible engine that is easy to recognize as such because of the size and the specialized elements (and the yellow pistons), and doesn't take 70 cm of rolling to start running, so that can be demonstrated. And it has nice folding lights. Also, the bodywork is much more interesting, because less boxy.

Sure, 8880 has faults too (no doors, the somewhat finicky rear hatch, the suspension that is too hard, and the HOG wheel is a bit difficult to reach). But on the whole, I'd say that 8880 is much easier to impress technic-minded non-Lego-fanatics with than 42110. Also, it's slightly over half the part count.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Erik Leppen

[Pattspatt]

8880 is such a perfect example of elegant complexity. While the build process wouldn’t fly today, the result is a 4x4x4 vehicle with the first Lego synchronized transmission, plus Ackermann geometry and a center diff. It implements all this technical complexity effortlessly. No transmission confusion like the Porsche. No suspension issues like the Chiron - and far more elegant structurally. No lime color issues like the Sian. 
 

42110 is one of my favorite sets - it has an exceptionally well-implemented suspension, and an exceptional collection of parts. But its transmission, while ambitious, definitely has performance issues (as well as an incorrectly implemented reverse gear). And the steering, which is well implemented, is only 2-wheel and not Ackermann. So I don’t think 42110 can take up 8880’s mantle. 
 

The other supercars (Porsche, Chiron, Sian) make more sense as contenders for 8880 successor, but I think they still fall short. The Sian comes the closest for me, but you trade a center diff and rear wheel steering for a sequential transmission. If the next supercar can boast “4x4x4” with a sequential transmission and some other extra feature a la the Sian’s doors and spoiler, I think the mantle will be ready to be passed. 

[allanp]

It should probably be noted that the OP isn't arguing that 42110 is BETTER than 8880, but that 42110 is the best car SINCE 8880. 

Do I agree? Honestly this is a tough one. For me the main real competitors are the 3 UCS supercars and 8448. 

8448 does have some innovation in that it was the first to have a reverse gear and a properly modular build. But 42110 has 4 wheel drive and is nicer to drive around with its HOG steering and nicely tuned suspension. However 42110 lacks a realistic drive layout by having its main gearbox in the boot/trunk and reverse in a completely separate gearbox, linked via universal joints. So while 42110 is nicer to play with (arguably when in neutral) and looks better, I kinda feel like 8448 was a more authentic working scale model of a car. So it depends on which you prefer in terms of which is the better model for you. So maybe it's a draw?

Then there's the orange Porsche. The Porsche should look better than any land rover but that bright orange colour didn't help it for me. The Porsche did bring some innovation with its first of a kind paddle shifters. But that function didn't work that well and wasn't much fun to play with due to the gears being in the wrong order and there was no indicator to tell you which gear you are in, and you couldn't see anything (engine or gearbox) so there was no telling what was going on. I think 42110 with it's better driving experience and 4 wheel drive wins over the Porsche.

Then we have the Chiron. Steering, as with all the UCS cars is very poor. With no HOG and poor steering wheel access, combined with the small steering arms and no Ackerman geometry, the steering with all these cars feels pretty poor. 42110 has HOG with some gear reduction to make it better but still I miss the longer steering arms of 8880 with Ackerman geometry. The suspension of the Bugatti is also about the worst ever! However, the Chiron did slightly refine the clunky paddle shifters and more importantly gave us the wave selector and a second size of clutch gear. It also gave us the first gearbox with 8 forward gears (well actually it's 16, or is it two 4 speed gearboxes in series, making 16 speeds but it's only 8 because one of the two 4 speed gearboxes has only 2 different speeds twice, and reverse is somewhere else entirely!). I'm not sure what to call it but it has more speeds and a partially visible engine. 42110s engine is more visible however it's the not as realistic cam shaft style of engine so that's not as good. I think the Chiron has a narrow victory over 42110 overall due to its innovation over its orange predecessor. 

Then we have the Sian. The Sian (if we ignore the colour inconsistencies) is the best looking Technic model ever released, by a long margin IMHO. It also further refines the paddle shifters and fixes the suspension issue of the Bugatti, and there's a clearly intentional window which allows you to see the gearbox working. However it still has the same very poor steering of the Porsche and the Chiron and the gearbox is still such an overly complicated and colour coded mess that I'm not sure I want to see it! In terms of the playability of these gearboxes, the Sian, the Porsche, 42110 and the Bugatti all have those same issues with too much complexity leading to having to roll it way too far before seeing very little difference, so it's hard to say which is better or worse. If the Bugatti didn't exist already then the Sian would probably take the win over 42110, however the Bugatti does exist, meaning the Sian lacks any kind of innovation not already given to us by it's Bugatti predecessor. This being Technic, it's gorgeous good looks aren't enough to carry the win over the much more playable and functional 42110, so I think 42110 gets the win over the Sian. 

For me this was a close race. All these sets have their pros and cons, and if someone was to have different winners and losers I'd totally understand. And I haven't mentioned price yet. The fact that 42110 can be a serious contender among the twice as expensive UCS sets is possibly is greatest achievement, and might make it the overall winner.

But if TLG were to bring out a new car which had the longer steering arms of 8880 with Ackerman geometry and HOG steering, and a completely new and much more realistic system of pieces for the gearboxes, then we'd have a new clear winner possibly beating even 8880. C'mon TLG let's see it, I know you can do it!

[howitzer]

2 hours ago, allanp said:

But if TLG were to bring out a new car which had the longer steering arms of 8880 with Ackerman geometry and HOG steering, and a completely new and much more realistic system of pieces for the gearboxes, then we'd have a new clear winner possibly beating even 8880. C'mon TLG let's see it, I know you can do it!

Yep, I might even buy such a car set. Even if I have little to none interest in cars in general.

Previously TLG has made successfully almost every important function conceivable for a car set, so now lets see them in one single, contemporary model.

(8880 was of course great, but the 4-wheel steering is pretty unrealistic and as I understand it, the suspension wasn't exactly flawless either. 8865 on the other hand, was really fun to drive around with its smooth suspension and nice Ackermann geometry.)

[Milan]

12 minutes ago, howitzer said:

but the 4-wheel steering is pretty unrealistic

Why?

[howitzer]

7 minutes ago, Milan said:

Why?

Steered rear wheels are really uncommon due to the inherent instability in such an arrangement (while front wheel steering is inherently stable). Multi-axle steering is of course used a lot in things like agricultural and construction vehicles, but not in normal cars.

[Gray Gear]

@howitzer Many Japanese cars from the 90s came with 4 wheel steering, like the Nissan's HICAS system featured in the Nissan skylines and some of the S-Chassis cars like the 180SX Type X I am building now as a MOC.

The 8880 is also from the 90's, and like the pop-up headlights the designers were probably also influenced by japanese cars. The 90's were a golden age for cars from the land of the rising sun, so it only makes sense.

[Milan]

5 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Steered rear wheels are really uncommon due to the inherent instability in such an arrangement (while front wheel steering is inherently stable). Multi-axle steering is of course used a lot in things like agricultural and construction vehicles, but not in normal cars.

4-wheel-steer cars have been available for some time, and according to tests, have some advantages.
https://www.motor1.com/features/239238/cars-four-wheel-steering/

[howitzer]

3 minutes ago, Milan said:

4-wheel-steer cars have been available for some time, and according to tests, have some advantages.
https://www.motor1.com/features/239238/cars-four-wheel-steering/

So apparently there are few cars which have this kind of feature, but vast majority don't, and the way it was implemented in 8880 doesn't seem very realistic to me (very different from the ones mentioned in your link).

[allanp]

@howitzer 8865 is indeed the king when it comes to handling. If it had HOG it would be unbeatable. 8880 would be also unbeatable if it had softer suspension.

[Gray Gear]

@howitzer most 4WS systems use computers and sensors to calculate in which direction and by how much the rear wheels should turn. The rear wheels are then steered either using hydraulics like in the R32 skyline or electric motors like in the R33/R34 skylines, not connected to the front steering system at all.

Of course the 4WS on the 8880 is a very simplified version of a real 4WS system, as is everything else built from Lego.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Gray Gear

[brunojj1]

1 hour ago, Gray Gear said:

@howitzer most 4WS systems use computers and sensors to calculate in which direction and by how much the rear wheels should turn. The rear wheels are then steered either using hydraulics like in the R32 skyline or electric motors like in the R33/R34 skylines, not connected to the front steering system at all.

Of course the 4WS on the 8880 is a very simplified version of a real 4WS system, as is everything else built from Lego.

I don´t know why these particular nostalgic features as 4-wheel steering, Ackermann geometry are considered so important or even must-have in the "ultimate" Technic supercar. Maybe it´s just lack of fantasy in the existing line-up so far. I would say the real successor of the 8880 set doesn´t need all of that desperately. It rather should represent the best and most interesting features of a modern hightech supercar. That means implementing electronics inescapably and showing them in the best way possible to educate kids and adults about innovation, mechanics etc. Not necessarily having a kinda dumb Super Mario application with no soul. I don´t know how to explain this better, meanwhile having no intention to reveal all of my ideas yet for my next MOC .

Edited September 30, 2021 by brunojj1
Obviously these functions are nowhere nostalgic, but the 8880 is..

[Void_S]

I tend to agree that 8880 was and is an amazing set because of having all features of that times supercars and, which is more important, presented them for the first time and in a quite beautiful model. So, the sucessor should also be a revoltionary set packed with realistix features and presented something which wasnt and will not be available before.

Following this idea, the Big Porche would fit here better, but just if wasnt followed by Chiron and Cian with the same features. 

[Rebel_Lego]

@howitzer Four wheel steering is actually used fairly often. For example Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi use it. I believe it’s also used in models from Bentley, but I’m not sure. Four wheel steering is often implemented in big, heavy cars, which can also drive really fast. In the city (at low speeds) the wheels countersteer, so that the turning radius is made smaller. At high speeds, the wheels turn the same direction as the front wheels to provide more stability. 

Of course, you won’t find this feature in the basic Opel Astra or VW Golf, but it is used quite a lot in cars like the Mercedes EQS for example: big, heavy and fast cars.

[Pattspatt]

5 hours ago, allanp said:

It should probably be noted that the OP isn't arguing that 42110 is BETTER than 8880, but that 42110 is the best car SINCE 8880. 

Good point - although OP did ask whether 42110 or Sian should be considered 8880’s successor in their last sentence. Personally I don’t think 42110 beats 8448 or 8466 in terms of playability, “innovation”, or technical accuracy. For me 42110 beats the Sian in terms of playability and slightly loses the other two categories. 

 

1 hour ago, brunojj1 said:

I don´t know why these particular nostalgic features as 4-wheel steering, Ackermann geometry are considered so important or even must-have in the "ultimate" Technic supercar. 

I think it’s kind of similar to the emphasis on a transmission that most supercars have today. Ultimately the difference between adjacent gears is relatively subtle, even more so with the recent larger gearboxes. Likewise, you probably won’t notice much effect of Ackermann at this scale. But it demonstrates a real concept, which is a plus for many people. Rear wheel steering (especially if the steering direction was linked to the gearbox) is another opportunity for more “bells-and-whistles” to populate a supercar’s list of features. I still think it’s a significant missed opportunity that the Lego GT3 RS didn’t include something like this. That said, excited to see the more “out-of-the-box” features that you have planned! 

[allanp]

1 hour ago, brunojj1 said:

I don´t know why these particular nostalgic features as 4-wheel steering, Ackermann geometry are considered so important or even must-have in the "ultimate" Technic supercar. Maybe it´s just lack of fantasy in the existing line-up so far. I would say the real successor of the 8880 set doesn´t need all of that desperately. It rather should represent the best and most interesting features of a modern hightech supercar. That means implementing electronics inescapably and showing them in the best way possible to educate kids and adults about innovation, mechanics etc. Not necessarily having a kinda dumb Super Mario application with no soul. I don´t know how to explain this better, meanwhile having no intention to reveal all of my ideas yet for my next MOC .

I don't think it's nostalgia. I think with Ackerman for example it comes down to feel. Technic, like all Lego, is expensive. £300 for a toy car that you push along is expensive. But we think it's worth it because Technic is (mostly) a quality product. The issue I have with the steering on the modern cars is that they all feel cheap, indirect and mushy to play with. It doesn't feel anything like a £300 product should feel. However 8880 and the test car had steering that felt much more solid and direct, and they just seemed to roll nicer. I attribute this much more higher quality feel to the longer steering arms with Ackerman geometry as they make the wheels track better and provide a more direct feel of control. It's also more realistic which is a plus in my book. 

I think these small details are important to get right. It's small details like this that make the difference between cheap and expensive, and now with all these competitor brands they really need to do more to earn their reputation for quality and being the best. So no more mushy cheap feeling steering and no more being stingy with only two sizes of clutch gear!

@Pattspatt somehow I completely forgot about 8466!

Edited September 30, 2021 by allanp