Is there a 'medieval-punk?'

[Mr Maniac]

So this question may seem a little out there, but bear with me (and if this fits in better on the Sci-Fi Forum, than by all means move it over).

I recently published a review of Witch's Windship here a few days ago given the season, and in it I mentioned how I ended up picking up most of that particular wave. Whether that was folly or not remains to be seen, as I've only built two out of four of the mid-sized sets. But I do find parts of this subtheme appealing, especially when we get to the different flying machines. Given the actual state of the official sets, I'm already in the process of modding them to have a more consistent color scheme, but want to go further.

Given how this subtheme already dabbled in more "advanced" technology for LEGO Castle compared to other subthemes, I was considering incorporating some more "machinery" that would be high-tech...for the Middle Ages as I modify the existing line. For instance, I'm thinking of reverse-engineering a device similar to the one from the Scary Laboratory in the Studios line, where you have a door and a turntable you can spin to "transform" a minifigure. But given how I'm working in a more medieval setting, I'm not sure a direct transfer would mesh as well.

So my question is whether anyone may have any thoughts on what kind of parts would make a contraption like the one I described appear more "medieval," instead of Victorian. More clockwork mechanisms? Gears? Wagon Wheels? Or is this a silly question, and should I just try a direct transfer? Given the era, I'm inclined to stay away from any designs that resemble the harnessing of electricity, and am trying to consider what other designs I could implement to convey a sense of power being harnessed for this infernal machine.

[vitreolum]

Basically, in order to make it appear medieval instead of victorian (or just out of place) you need to disguise it as a medieval design. Definitely not clockwork mechanisms, those are a staple of steampunk - rather chains and wagon wheels. Simple and rough looking mechanism - basically the opposite of ornate and lavish things you'd associate with steampunk. Think of medieval tools and designs that could be used to achieve what you want. To give a random example, if you were to make a steampunk laptop, you'd disguise it into a victorian music box casing or something like that. If you want to go medieval on it, it becomes much trickier since the gap is a lot bigger. I can't think of anything on the spot that would be a good match.

But, since these sets are fantasy medieval, anything is game really, so you don't necessarily need to bother making big alterations.. A victorian looking contraption in a witches' lab is not an uncommon sight.

[MAB]

3 hours ago, vitreolum said:

If you want to go medieval on it, it becomes much trickier since the gap is a lot bigger. I can't think of anything on the spot that would be a good match.

Probably treasure chests. They are plentiful in LEGO.

As for bigger items, maybe siege engines that walk (like a strandbeest). A lot of power was animal based, so maybe horse drawn trains. A windmill powered basic computing machine. If you don't mind fantasy, then troll powered everything!

 

[AmperZand]

Iron/steel was more of a scarce resource in Medieval times compared to the Victorian era. So where you can, use colours that suggest wood (reddish brown, dark brown, tans), not ones that are ambiguous such as black or bley.

As wood has different material properties than metal, constructions made of it need to be chunkier to achieve the same thing.

Although steam engines existed in Antiquity, they only really became common during the Industrial Revolution and were hardly used in Medieval Europe. So you want to avoid anything that suggests steam (or steam & vacuum) engines. If a source of power is required, try to make something that looks magical using trans parts or suggests arcane power such as glyphs.

[Peppermint_M]

Magi-tech or Technomancy is the term used for fantastical settings that uses a Castle era with Technology in fiction. 

Years ago I dabbled in the idea:

(link to albums on pics)

Of course, those are just a personal choice of what to use. These were pure fantasy, so there was no demands for realism of material (strength, scarcity, etc), I just made sure to keep the aesthetic away from the Steampunk markers (chimney stacks, gears, a lot of copper/brass). Also, these days there are a lot of small parts for making the connections I used in these (Back then there were only bars, bar clips, telescopes and lightsaber hilts!) in shades that are less metal and more natural wood colours. 

 

[jtooker]

On 10/22/2020 at 12:17 AM, vitreolum said:

rather chains and wagon wheels

I agree.  Wood and stone with a bit of iron.  For power sources, you'd expect horse, water or manual cranks, though you could expand to wind or magic.  Grain mills seems like a good 'base' that you could expand upon.  I would think steam would be a step too far.

I don't know too much about Technomancy or Magi-tech, but using 'magic' as the source of technology sounds like a great way to keep the medieval theme without slipping into steampunk (or steampunk disguised as medieval).

For inspiration, I'm thinking of the hobbit movie, specifically the orcs in the mountains scenes as well as the dwarves' halls.

[Sarophas]

I agree with the previous comments. But try a google search for things like medieval cranes or siege weapons. Or maybe Leonardo da Vincis sketches.

Man, beast or wind/water powered makes the most sense to me. I've always had a weakness for the giant hamster wheels in cranes and trebuchets.

 

[thetang22]

Medieval-punk....which as you mean is basically just steampunk ideas....but within a medieval setting.  This sort of thing is already quite common in the fantasy genre.  Look to things such as Dungeons and Dragons and Warcraft, and you can find countless sources of inspiration that could be described as “steampunk” in a fantasy setting....and they are done in a way that looks entirely appropriate.

[SteamSewnEmpire]

18 hours ago, thetang22 said:

Medieval-punk....which as you mean is basically just steampunk ideas....but within a medieval setting.  This sort of thing is already quite common in the fantasy genre.  Look to things such as Dungeons and Dragons and Warcraft, and you can find countless sources of inspiration that could be described as “steampunk” in a fantasy setting....and they are done in a way that looks entirely appropriate.

Except that something being medieval is basically predicated on a lack of widespread innovation. IE, knights are using swords, not because they prefer them over firearms, but because firearms haven't been invented yet (and there is no industrial base available to produce them on a large scale). This is the major reason why steampunk and dieselpunk are logical - because we're simply imagining very technology-driven eras evolving in different (but parallel) ways. The foundational notion - that these societies were making every effort (and possessed every chance) to claw forward scientifically - is unchanged.

The problem with doing this in a medieval setting is that it runs directly counter to what people want out of a medieval period in the first place: a (fairly) backwards set of cultures with often mystical or even magical beliefs and ideas (utilized to explain a world they do not understand) laboring for victory with exceedingly limited knowledge of medicine, explosives, metallurgy, navigation, etc., and in a pristine settings with enormous portions of the landscape remaining unexplored and incredibly wild. The moment you start injecting the 'punk' and the associated broadening of worldviews, the charm of being medieval fades. It's almost impossible to rationalize the same knights riding around on mechano-horses and wielding steam-powered laser swords still believing that the Earth is the center of the universe, or that the neighbor's little girl is a witch, or that there's an evil sorcerer living in a cave up on the nearest mountaintop. Moreover, it's similarly a struggle to see traditional medieval threats (being attacked by a pack of wolves; suffering from an infected wound; getting lost because your map is completely wrong) as being any kind of a challenge to the same group of people who can build a flying castle (or whatever).

Honestly, I believe this is actually a big part of the reason why Nexo Knights (in a way itself kind of a 'medieval punk') never caught on - because when people want to be transported to an age of templars and maidens and peasant armies, the last thing they want is the intrusion of inexplicable and distracting technology.

[Mr Maniac]

Interesting. Lots of good stuff to chew on here. I glanced at some other forums that were non-LEGO discussing stuff like this, and yeah, I realize that you've gotta make it look real clunky to fit the era. Since the official line-up from Fright Knights already had some gestures in that direction, I should be able to make it work with a more expansive color palette regarding newer parts.

On 10/22/2020 at 5:59 AM, Peppermint_M said:

Magi-tech or Technomancy is the term used for fantastical settings that uses a Castle era with Technology in fiction. 

Years ago I dabbled in the idea:

@Peppermint_M, I love these designs (and the terminology. Filing that away in my head for use elsewhere)! Did you ever get any further than those two horse-carts in building?

On 10/22/2020 at 1:17 AM, vitreolum said:

Definitely not clockwork mechanisms, those are a staple of steampunk - rather chains and wagon wheels.

Thanks for the tips, @vitreolum! Looks like some of my earlier Bricklink orders were moving in the right direction, though I suspect I'll still want to add some gears or pulleys to create an 'effect,' such as the one in the actual lab with the spinning vortex part. which honestly could totally work as a magic vortex.

On 10/22/2020 at 4:36 AM, MAB said:

Probably treasure chests. They are plentiful in LEGO.

As for bigger items, maybe siege engines that walk (like a strandbeest). A lot of power was animal based, so maybe horse drawn trains. A windmill powered basic computing machine. If you don't mind fantasy, then troll powered everything!

 

I think you nailed it. Don't know if I'll try something as big as a horse-powered train (though that would return the term 'horsepower' to its rightful place )! Chances are brickbuilt windmills will definitely come into play for the witch's workshop.

 

On 10/25/2020 at 3:01 PM, thetang22 said:

Look to things such as Dungeons and Dragons and Warcraft, and you can find countless sources of inspiration that could be described as “steampunk” in a fantasy setting....and they are done in a way that looks entirely appropriate.

Should've known one of the biggest role-playing games would have some sources of inspiration! Thanks for the tip!

 

11 hours ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

The problem with doing this in a medieval setting is that it runs directly counter to what people want out of a medieval period in the first place: a (fairly) backwards set of cultures with often mystical or even magical beliefs and ideas (utilized to explain a world they do not understand) laboring for victory with exceedingly limited knowledge of medicine, explosives, metallurgy, navigation, etc., and in a pristine settings with enormous portions of the landscape remaining unexplored and incredibly wild.

Reading your arguments, and I'm inclined to agree, which is why I want to limit any novel 'magi-tech' MOCs to Willa's 'Magic Manor,' since I don't want to redesign the entire society and theme.

Thanks again everyone! This has really helped me focus on how to get this stuff to blend in with the existing medieval Fright Knights theme!

[Peppermint_M]

20 hours ago, Mr Maniac said:

Did you ever get any further than those two horse-carts in building?

I had a few attempts at other creations, but as I made them a (shocking to realise) 9 years ago, the parts around at the time and the size of my collection limited what I could achieve. Honestly, turning them up again from my photostream (and storage, I was always too proud of them to dismantle!) I have a few new plans to expand the idea with.

Discworld was a great source of ideas for me, the books published before the 2000s really embraced the magical "technology" thing.

[thetang22]

On 10/26/2020 at 8:50 AM, SteamSewnEmpire said:

Except that something being medieval is basically predicated on a lack of widespread innovation.

It depends on the flavor of “medieval” you are aiming for.

Historical medieval...sure, you have those limitations.  

Medieval Fantasy is a whole different set of limitations.  You can have magic in a setting like that, which can be justification for nearly anything you want to toss in.

Thus why I referenced 2 of the biggest medieval fantasy examples from pop culture.  It’s not strange at all to see steampunk inspirations in D&D medieval fantasy settings, or Warcraft.

[GeoBrick]

Instead of using magic as the 'power source' of your medieval 'punk machinery', you could use blast furnaces.

And with the same effort give all those blacksmiths you have undoubtedly laying around a job. ;)

[SteamSewnEmpire]

On 10/28/2020 at 3:19 PM, thetang22 said:

It depends on the flavor of “medieval” you are aiming for.

Historical medieval...sure, you have those limitations.  

Medieval Fantasy is a whole different set of limitations.  You can have magic in a setting like that, which can be justification for nearly anything you want to toss in.

Thus why I referenced 2 of the biggest medieval fantasy examples from pop culture.  It’s not strange at all to see steampunk inspirations in D&D medieval fantasy settings, or Warcraft.

I don't really view the world of Azeroth as medieval. They ride around on motorcycles, travel through space on giant crystal ships, have a pretty firm grasp of the geography of their entire world and much of the galaxy - hell, they even know for a fact that there's an afterlife (and are about to spend 18-24 months there). Frankly, I think the denizens of World of Warcraft would probably find our own world almost byzantine.

[thetang22]

14 hours ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

I don't really view the world of Azeroth as medieval. They ride around on motorcycles, travel through space on giant crystal ships, have a pretty firm grasp of the geography of their entire world and much of the galaxy - hell, they even know for a fact that there's an afterlife (and are about to spend 18-24 months there). Frankly, I think the denizens of World of Warcraft would probably find our own world almost byzantine.

You are welcome to view it that way....but Warcraft has long been consider “medieval fantasy” in the same way D&D is.

Perhaps it would help to view “Warcraft”...and not “World of Warcraft”.  WoW, being an MMO evolved a lot over the years, and MMOs have a tendency to be a lot more flexible with their treatment of lore.  They are willing to toss in ridiculous things that feel out of place if they think they can make a quick buck off it. Vintage Warcraft was much more typical “medieval fantasy” with steampunk elements.

D&D also has a LOT of additional inspirations that are wildly outside traditional “medieval” settings.  But it is rooted in a medieval base before tossing all the other junk in that makes it fundamentally “medieval fantasy” first and foremost.  Just remember....the “fantasy” portion of that encompasses a rather large variety of what it can mean.

Edited October 30, 2020 by thetang22

[SteamSewnEmpire]

7 hours ago, thetang22 said:

You are welcome to view it that way...

Why do threads on the Eurobricks forums invariably devolve into this sort of thing? Nobody can ever say anything without a set of toes somewhere being trod on, overall wrongness being implied subtly or not-so-subtly, people losing it over minor criticisms of models, etc. 

When you deign to tell someone IRL "well ACK-TCHYUALLY...", do they just walk away from you?

Edited October 31, 2020 by SteamSewnEmpire

[thetang22]

On 10/30/2020 at 11:15 PM, SteamSewnEmpire said:

Why do threads on the Eurobricks forums invariably devolve into this sort of thing? Nobody can ever say anything without a set of toes somewhere being trod on, overall wrongness being implied subtly or not-so-subtly, people losing it over minor criticisms of models, etc. 

When you deign to tell someone IRL "well ACK-TCHYUALLY...", do they just walk away from you?

Refer back to your original response to me, where you did basically the same to me.  I responded to the original post to check out D&D and Warcraft....and your response was “actually, you are wrong, and here’s why....”

So why do you call it out when I defend myself?  I offered examples to help the OP, then you went out of your way to tell me I’m wrong.....to which I responded explaining why I feel I’m not.  Then you further said....”but that isn’t REALLY medieval fantasy”....

And so it continued.  I offered help to the OP, and you entered the discussion by trying to tell me I’m wrong more than once.  And you then get mad at ME?  I’m sorry, but if you keep telling me I’m wrong, I’m going to defend myself when I feel I’ve got a sound argument.

I came here offering help.  You came here telling me I’m wrong.

Have a good day.

Edited November 1, 2020 by thetang22

[MAB]

20 hours ago, thetang22 said:

I offered help to the OP, and you entered the discussion by trying to tell me I’m wrong more than once.  And you then get mad at ME?  I’m sorry, but if you keep telling me I’m wrong, I’m going to defend myself when I feel I’ve got a sound argument.

I came here offering help.  You came here telling me I’m wrong.

I think you are right here. The OP asked for suggestions and you gave some. There will be a lot of inspiration in franchises like D&D and Warcraft. Some will be useful, some not. Pointing them out is good, and the OP can then use them, or ignore them if they do not fit their desires. They can choose how far into fantasy vs realistic they want, there has to be some fantasy if it is a XXXXX-punk style.

 

[neonic]

Is there a medieval punk?

I don't know. If you mean steampunk? Than I don't thinks so. What I know of it it's more like new stuff with old technics. For example, I've seen computers with all copper tubing (watercooling), old switches and analoge guages for temperature, volts and stuff. It looked liked it was made in ... '20/'30's or something. I've also seen a bike, chopper style, with a lot of copper parts, and an old gascylinder as fueltank, and a lantern of a carriage. So in my opinion it doesn't work with medieval.

Quote

Given the era, I'm inclined to stay away from any designs that resemble the harnessing of electricity, and am trying to consider what other designs I could implement to convey a sense of power being harnessed for this infernal machine.

So you want that set to more look like medieval? Than I think you can look at the medieval-era. Like already said, they used a lot of stone and wood and wrougt iron. For the power you could use electricity of lightning. Lightning is 'timeless' 
Steampower will suits too, however it's invented many years later.

Nice idea, looking forward what you gonna make of it.