LEGO #21344 - Orient Express

[something_fabulous]

Honestly, I think this set is getting way too much hate. After building it, having it in hand, and playing around with it its a fine set. Its not perfect, but this set does shine above most others that have come before it. 

The problem lies behind it. It partically has to do with TLG and partially with us. We all know when it comes to LEGO Ideas we only vote for the idea nowadays, not the picture we see, we're all aware this is how it has been for a while so thats on us. But I also think TLG should really should try to strive closer to the original fan design unless its for the better. I understand that making the locomotive smaller to fit standard LEGO track (which the original didn't) was necessairy (though they obv went *too* small), but taking the route of making the locomotive an afterthough was the wrong way to go, a train is only as good as its locomotive.

On it's own, the locomotive is fine, not perfect, could have been more. But from TLG more than acceptable and I do like it. The problem is when you compare it to the ideas vote, thats where the criticism is valid. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by something_fabulous

[Lyichir]

I feel like even the assertion people keep repeating that the locomotive was "an afterthought" isn't fair or accurate... it seems to be a rather well-thought-out locomotive design to me, with several features that I feel elevate it above previous steam engine sets. But then again I wasn't particularly charmed by the original Ideas proposal back when it got approved, and it was only when the finalized set was revealed that this set even piqued my interest.

[Jon Reynolds]

I sometimes wonder how the hate:love ratio from the AFOL community would look, should Lego have made different choices for the OE.

I think we are all a little bit guilty of brushing the reality of a toy manufacturer under the carpet, so to speak, when critically reviewing such models.  I do like the set and I think it is very hard to argue against it being one of the best model trains since Lego started making sets in 1966 (?).   I intend to buy a set but I'm not rushing right now because it should be available for some 2-3 years.

Sure, there are some quality issues related to the stickers and the printed parts.  That is bad and goes against the '2 coats of varnish on the duck' philosophy that we should expect.  I disagree with most of the other criticisms, though.  For example...

1. Lego 'can't' offer a motorising solution - Yes, we know it's possible.  I work for a company that manufactures at the high quality end of the market (the best, in fact).  For similar reasons, only well-tested products are launched to the market and these are often less interesting or 'sexy'  compared to our competitors.  The difference is they will work for 25 years, have full back up support and prove at least twice as reliable in operation.  I value this.  Others, including those who buy on price alone, do not.  I'm not saying who is right or wrong here - I'm just illustrating where I think Lego's strategy lies.  They apply these standards and we are free to ignore them, as I'm sure many of our MOCs do too!

2. The engine isn't (choose from; long enough; detailed enough; looks like the IDEAS submission; the right colour etc.).  I may be in a minority these days but I don't like the trend of Lego concentrating on their 'Adults Welcome' marketing to the detriment of the core creativity of the Lego system.  I don't think we, as AFOLs, are served well by sets that are designed to be built into one thing and left on the shelf, much like an Airfix kit.  I really hope that there are enough genuine creative adult fans who see through this and buy the sets for not only the fun of building the fixed model but also for what they can turn the bricks into.  A symptom of Lego's direction in following the adult pound/dollar/euro is the lack of instructions for a secondary model, like we used to get.  So, my message is 'quit bitching and build the engine you want' .

3. Yes, it is overpriced due to the licensing fee.  That doesn't mean it isn't a great model.

Finally, a question for the wider Lego train community: Had we been able to enjoy the marvel of these internet groups at the time  the fabled Metroliner was launched, would we have accepted it without criticism? .

Jon

 

[RedBrick1]

5 hours ago, something_fabulous said:

It only took 2 extra studs to add the rear bogie, but thats also because of the larger XL drivers. The pilot wheels mod was actually really easy and fits underneath the original locomotive as well

Great work, keep working on this! These are the types of mods I am looking to make to my copy as well. The pilot wheel mod greatly improves the balance! (The only downside in appearance is the buffers will now move along with the rotation around curves.) I'm hoping that the extra space between the wheels allows for the cylinders to be extended lower by a stud.

Do the XL drivers fit under the existing running boards?

Edited December 8, 2023 by RedBrick1

[something_fabulous]

14 hours ago, Lyichir said:

I feel like even the assertion people keep repeating that the locomotive was "an afterthought" isn't fair or accurate... it seems to be a rather well-thought-out locomotive design to me, with several features that I feel elevate it above previous steam engine sets. But then again I wasn't particularly charmed by the original Ideas proposal back when it got approved, and it was only when the finalized set was revealed that this set even piqued my interest.

It is accurate to look at is as an afterthough. Lego sets get a parts budget. By going for a 2nd coach that means the parts that have to be allocated for have to come from somewhere else, in this case that was the locomotive. If it didn't have a 2nd coach those parts would have (most likely) been used to beef up the locomotive.

12 hours ago, RedBrick1 said:

Great work, keep working on this! These are the types of mods I am looking to make to my copy as well. The pilot wheel mod greatly improves the balance! (The only downside in appearance is the buffers will now move along with the rotation around curves.) I'm hoping that the extra space between the wheels allows for the cylinders to be extended lower by a stud.

Do the XL drivers fit under the existing running boards?

They wont fit no, The entire locomotive would have to be fully modified to fit XL drivers since well.. they are bigger as you'd expect. 

[zephyr1934]

On 12/7/2023 at 7:03 AM, Bensch55 said:

And that's the problem. In case of the OE, the licence holder apparently had a big amount of influence on the final set, which gave us some nice coaches with a locomotive to laugh at. Might not be a big issue for all 5 die-hard-OE-fans out there but it certainly is for everone else.

tl;dr: This set could have been way better and cheaper without a licence.  

The ideal solution would have been just a pair of OE cars with no locomotive at all and then separately have a nice Euro locomotive set (e.g., bring back the crocodile). That way OE could have the cars that they wanted, fans could buy more than two cars without having surplus locomotives (I'm looking at you EN), and everyone would be happy. But that would have been one SKU too many for the Lego bean counters and their optimization.

Lego originally released the Super Chief locomotive on its own, with no cars (and no motor, but you could buy that separately). Then 6 months later released matching cars originally designed by a fan (via a predecessor to Ideas).

 

[Shiva]

17 hours ago, Lyichir said:

I feel like even the assertion people keep repeating that the locomotive was "an afterthought" isn't fair or accurate... it seems to be a rather well-thought-out locomotive design to me, with several features that I feel elevate it above previous steam engine sets. But then again I wasn't particularly charmed by the original Ideas proposal back when it got approved, and it was only when the finalized set was revealed that this set even piqued my interest.

The original idea was interesting. The locomotive in that, I was... "That will NOT work".

I was, undecided, if to get this, until I saw the screenshots of the official product. Then, it went on, quite the top of the list.

[Phil-B259]

2 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

The ideal solution would have been just a pair of OE cars with no locomotive at all and then separately have a nice Euro locomotive set (e.g., bring back the crocodile). That way OE could have the cars that they wanted, fans could buy more than two cars without having surplus locomotives (I'm looking at you EN), and everyone would be happy. But that would have been one SKU too many for the Lego bean counters and their optimization.

Lego originally released the Super Chief locomotive on its own, with no cars (and no motor, but you could buy that separately). Then 6 months later released matching cars originally designed by a fan (via a predecessor to Ideas).

 

 

As ever you are completely ignoring that this is a licensed product - and ANYTHING involving the words 'Orient Express will be!

Selling just the carriages would most likely to have been vetoed by the OE! They would no doubt want a locomotive included so as to give off an 'authentic train set vibe' about the set.

And given the original Lego Ideas submission was quite explicit in that it was a model of the Orient Express then Lego could not have made that idea into reality without obtain a licence from owners of the OE brand.

As such the choice is simply the model e have got or no model at all - so stop coming up with nonsense suggestions about what was realistically possible in this case.

If you want straightforward carriages with no licencing hang ups then try submitting something to Lego Ideas and see how you get on. If there really is that huge demand we keep being told about for separate locos, carriages etc then we would expect them to regularly end up in the top 10 when it comes to votes. The fact that don't do so at the moment speaks volumes about the importance of 'trains' in terms of the Lego fanbase as a whole...

 

As to the set itself, I actually quite like the set BUT...

I can't overlook the fact the restaurant car doesn't have a kitchen (or an accompanying kitchen car) to prepare the meals

Having a sleeping car where the bedrooms taking up the whole width of the car and no corridor between is ridiculousness for anyone who knows anything about trains...

Both of these issues are far more important than whinges over the  look / size / lack of motorisation of the locomotive!

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Phil-B259

[Toastie]

16 minutes ago, Phil-B259 said:

Both of these issues are far more important than whinges over the  look / size / lack of motorisation of the locomotive!

Yeah, sure: For you.

So in essence, the Gods of the OE have approved this set - and they don't know anything about trains?

 

 

[Aanchir]

4 hours ago, something_fabulous said:

It is accurate to look at is as an afterthough. Lego sets get a parts budget. By going for a 2nd coach that means the parts that have to be allocated for have to come from somewhere else, in this case that was the locomotive. If it didn't have a 2nd coach those parts would have (most likely) been used to beef up the locomotive. 

See, I figured that the parts budget to include a second coach would have come primarily from the decision to downscale the entire train (locomotive, tender, and coaches alike). After all, while the overall length of the final train is similar to the one in the Ideas proposal, the overall height and width are substantially reduced to bring it closer to the scale of other LEGO trains. And the length of each car in the final set is cut from 70 studs (excluding the protruding buffers, which add an additional 4 studs) to just 46. I figure those changes would free up a lot of parts on their own!

Furthermore, in both the original proposal and the final set, the combined length of the locomotive and tender is roughly the same as the length of a single coach, and the height of the locomotive cab is even with the height of the carriage roofs (excluding the hump in the center, which protruded higher on the original project due to the "skylights" of the 1930s CIWL dining cars it was modeled on).

As such, I imagine one of the main reasons that the locomotive seems more noticeably "trimmed down" than the coaches is that the original coach had a relatively low-detail exterior in spite of its enormous size. Thus, each coach could be scaled down substantially in the final set with far less noticeable loss of detail than the locomotive. Moreover, I suspect the locomotive design itself was likely altered to match not only the color, but also the smooth curvy, and largely studless design language of the coaches. That would mean doing away with some of the greebly and angular details of the original locomotive, which were technically impressive but stylistically at odds with the desired "look".

If the locomotive were truly an "afterthought", it might be expected to rely heavily on existing parts (thus minimizing its cost) or on familiar building techniques from previous train sets (like the many versions of the Hogwarts Express that this has been compared to). But instead, quite a bit of effort seems to have gone into even the more controversial of these changes. Brand-new recolors are used for the domes, whistle, smokestack, pilot, and front windows of the cab, while one of the two new molds in the set is used for the driving rods. And novel building techniques are used for the running boards, curved front corners of the cab, pilot truck, headstock, and the steam pipes immediately in front of the cab — to say nothing of the elaborate details of the cab interior.

From my perspective (as somebody who appreciates innovative builds, but is admittedly not at all a train buff), these sorts of details read more as a labor of love than as an afterthought!

2 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

The ideal solution would have been just a pair of OE cars with no locomotive at all and then separately have a nice Euro locomotive set (e.g., bring back the crocodile). That way OE could have the cars that they wanted, fans could buy more than two cars without having surplus locomotives (I'm looking at you EN), and everyone would be happy. But that would have been one SKU too many for the Lego bean counters and their optimization.

I don't think it's accurate to just treat this as LEGO being stingy with SKUs. For most casual builders, a complete train (even with a relatively simple-looking locomotive) is a LOT more appealing than a set of carriages with the locomotive sold separately. Same as why LEGO sells modular buildings as a complete set rather than as individual floors, even if the latter would be way more economical for people wishing to expand their height.

25 minutes ago, Phil-B259 said:

As to the set itself, I actually quite like the set BUT...

I can't overlook the fact the restaurant car doesn't have a kitchen (or an accompanying kitchen car) to prepare the meals.

Having a sleeping car where the bedrooms taking up the whole width of the car and no corridor between is ridiculousness for anyone who knows anything about trains...

This is definitely a valid concern IMO, but I think this is just a consequence of having to conserve detail and thus choosing to focus on the "customer-facing" part of the Orient Express luxury experience rather than the "behind-the-scenes" parts. It's the same as how hardly any shops in sets (even in "premium", high-detail sets like the Modular Buildings) have a utility closet or stockroom.

And of course a real train would have room for an open corridor alongside the sleeper car's private suites for the benefit of people moving along the length of the train — but this would not be remotely practical for an eight-wide train, at least not with beds sized to fit standard minifigure occupants! So one way or another, it is necessary to condense the details somewhat one way or another.

For my part, I'm honestly impressed with the amount of detail the eight-wide cars DID allow! In past six-wide trains like the Horizon Express, train bathrooms and bar/cafe counters would be too wide to allow for a minifigure to pass by them even when shuffling sideways.

[Phil-B259]

48 minutes ago, Toastie said:

Yeah, sure: For you.

So in essence, the Gods of the OE have approved this set - and they don't know anything about trains?

 

 

Admittedly its personal view but if a train is to be a train it should be prototypical in its configuration - and that INCLUDES the carriage interiors not just the exteriors or that the loco be powered!.

So in that sense yes I agree with the statement that the division of OE which approved / guided development of this set don't know anything about trains*

But, at the same time I don't expect them too because in my view they regard this as a Marketing / Advertising Tool! - and as such the OE folk who were involved with the Lego design were most likely not rail specialists or necessarily enthusiasts

In the minds of OE the Lego set exists to promote their brand of luxury travel with a heavy focus on luxury! In effect the fact its a train is not that important - but putting as much of the luxurious interior on display is. And I admit the interior detail is superb and really does a good job of capturing what luxury train travel looks like so cannot fault OEs input in respect of that.

 

* and perhaps if more Lego Trains fans were able to accept that then they might be a bit more realistic about what this set actually is.

 

42 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

 

This is definitely a valid concern IMO, but I think this is just a consequence of having to conserve detail and thus choosing to focus on the "customer-facing" part of the Orient Express luxury experience rather than the "behind-the-scenes" parts. It's the same as how hardly any shops in sets (even in "premium", high-detail sets like the Modular Buildings) have a utility closet or stockroom.

 

Agreed

Its one of the nice things about the latest Modular Museum that you have a toilet in it! Sounds silly I know but I kinda feel that even Logo should be vaguely realistic....

However I have I plan to rebuild my modulars in future to include such things though and were I to get this set I would need at least two OE sets so I could remedy the highlighted issues

Edited December 8, 2023 by Phil-B259

[Carefree_Dude]

This may be silly but would have simply changing the color of the locomotive made it more appealing? 

[Phil-B259]

18 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

For my part, I'm honestly impressed with the amount of detail the eight-wide cars DID allow! In past six-wide trains like the Horizon Express, train bathrooms and bar/cafe counters would be too wide to allow for a minifigure to pass by them even when shuffling sideways.

Guilt as charged on this - I rebuilt my HE cars to try and make them more prototypical inside and yes because they are only 6 wide the corridor past the toilet is only one stud wide...

I also rebuilt / added extra carriages top the legendary 7740 with the kitchen at the side of the carriage not across the end (with a similar 1 stud wide corridor) for realism

But I justify that by saying how many real world cars have just one seat in them - yet thats all most Lego cars have had!

Lego has always involved compromises because to make it work as a toy compression is needed, so where space is lacking its creating the impression that counts for me. After all my HE doesn't run round with all the roofs removed so the fact that the corridor is too small for a minifigure to be posed in it doesn't matter that much - the point is it looks like its there from the outside and the interior layout, although much compressed is grounded in reality.....

[Shiva]

Phil-B259, converting to 10 wide? or lengthening the cars? Or both?

Carefree_Dude, do you mean blue to green?

[Phil-B259]

27 minutes ago, Carefree_Dude said:

This may be silly but would have simply changing the color of the locomotive made it more appealing? 

I agree on this - A darkish Green colour would have been a better 'fit' as it were - if you go and look at photos of the Orient Express (or VOSE) in real life the locos always tended to be different colours from the coaches.

However once again I stress that OEs heavy involvement in this set seems to be driven from a marketing angle - so to them I can see how they would turn round and reject a loco not in the same colour as the coaches regardless of how non-prototypical that might be.

19 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Phil-B259, converting to 10 wide? or lengthening the cars? Or both?

With the HE & 4470 I kept to 6 wide* (though with the the latter coaches I extended them lengthwise by 4 studs)  - and yes I admit my mods do look a little ridiculous close up. However like I said above my mind is better able to cope with stuff like 1 stud wide corridors than the inclusion of un-prototypical layouts just to make the interiors fully minifigure accessible as it were.

Toys are just that Toys - its the attention to authenticity which actually turns a toy into a model!

*Going 8 or 10 wide would of course allow for finer detail - but I want to be able to run them alongside my other 6-wide Lego issued trains. Again inconsistency in size just doesn't look right when running trains together - I wouldn't mix HO gauge model railways with British OO gauge (even though they run on the same track) because the size difference between the two scales would be too distracting.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Phil-B259

[Lyichir]

5 minutes ago, Phil-B259 said:

I agree on this - A darkish Green colour would have been a better 'fit' as it were - if you go and look at photos of the Orient Express (or VOSE) in real life the locos always tended to be different colours from the coaches.

However once again I stress that OEs heavy involvement in this set seems to be driven from a marketing angle - so to them I can see how they would turn round and reject a loco not in the same colour as the coaches regardless of how prototypical that might be.

To be honest even without OE's input I imagine Lego might opt for a color other than dark green, simply because dark green could be perceived as too similar to the Emerald Night (still one of Lego's most iconic and recognizable steam engines, whose shadow looms large over all such builds). If the locomotive were the same color as the Emerald Night, many potential buyers might consider buying another steam locomotive in the same color to be somewhat redundant even if the design of the locomotives was made very different.

In that respect, I feel like dark blue was a good choice not only because it matches the carriages, but also because it's sufficiently different from past Lego steam locomotives which have most often been in colors like green, black, or red.

[oddjob]

On 12/8/2023 at 6:42 AM, Phil-B259 said:

No they couldn't

Please remember Lego could only make this set in the first place because the holders of the rights to the brand "Orient Express" let them do so - and as Lego have explained in this case those right holders were VERY involved in the design of the set seeing it as a way to showcase THE CARRIAGES which are used on the real train.

The rights holders didn't care that much about the locomotive - because as has been highlighted the owners of the "Orient Express" have never owned a single locomotive throughout the trains entire existence, they merely hire them as required from the countries the train travels through, all it needed to do was look OK when put in front of the carriages

 

Thanks for emphasizing my point. 

[Toastie]

7 hours ago, oddjob said:

to showcase THE CARRIAGES which are used on the real train

There are more features provided by this web editor (in addition to all caps, bold faced and underlined text) to emphasize what you want to convey: Italics. and you can change the color and font size.

[Bensch55]

So, to summarize all of this:

After the debacle about the big scale HogEx Lego knew, whatever train they will release, it has to work on their standard track. They knew how fans felt, yet they agreed on an ideas project that would never be able to accomplish this without a big amount of modifications. They also agree to do this with a licence partner that wants to be very involved with the set, limiting the design choices even more.

And what came out of it? A fictional locomotive that wouldn't be motorized due to Lego's standards, two fancy looking coaches that look really odd when rolling through the tight R40 curves and to add insult to injury, a markup on the prize for what is essentially a big marketing exercise of the licence holder.

At the same time, some other manufacturer managed to get close to the original design from Lego Ideas and finally even provided track with bigger radii.

The argument about the "very small amount of train enthusiasts" also perishes when you take a look on the portfolio of certain german retailers that have been successfully in business for years.

You still like the set? Good, go buy it and have fun. But be aware that praising every set TLG puts on the table and defending them for every design choice they make is just turning a blind eye on the situation and will never encourage them to do better. 

And that's my final contribution to this discussion.

[lego3057]

Green is better. Now about the price: 10133 BNSF 40$-67$(with inflation someone said). 407 bricks. If you compare with OE train you get more than 300$.

Edited December 9, 2023 by lego3057

[Sven J]

2 hours ago, Toastie said:

There are more features provided by this web editor (in addition to all caps, bold faced and underlined text) to emphasize what you want to convey: Italics. and you can change the color and font size. 

Thank you for this comment, Thorsten! Exactly what I was thinking, but didn't dare to write it.

[JopieK]

17 hours ago, Phil-B259 said:

 

As ever you are completely ignoring that this is a licensed product - and ANYTHING involving the words 'Orient Express will be!

Selling just the carriages would most likely to have been vetoed by the OE! They would no doubt want a locomotive included so as to give off an 'authentic train set vibe' about the set.

And given the original Lego Ideas submission was quite explicit in that it was a model of the Orient Express then Lego could not have made that idea into reality without obtain a licence from owners of the OE brand.

As such the choice is simply the model e have got or no model at all - so stop coming up with nonsense suggestions about what was realistically possible in this case.

If you want straightforward carriages with no licencing hang ups then try submitting something to Lego Ideas and see how you get on. If there really is that huge demand we keep being told about for separate locos, carriages etc then we would expect them to regularly end up in the top 10 when it comes to votes. The fact that don't do so at the moment speaks volumes about the importance of 'trains' in terms of the Lego fanbase as a whole...

 

As to the set itself, I actually quite like the set BUT...

I can't overlook the fact the restaurant car doesn't have a kitchen (or an accompanying kitchen car) to prepare the meals

Having a sleeping car where the bedrooms taking up the whole width of the car and no corridor between is ridiculousness for anyone who knows anything about trains...

Both of these issues are far more important than whinges over the  look / size / lack of motorisation of the locomotive!

 

Keep it friendly please @Phil-B259, we all are hobbyists and a hobby should be fun. Apart from that a lot of Train stuff ends up quite high on Ideas and stuff like the Bricklink (https://www.bricklink.com/v3/designer-program/series-1/main.page, 3/15 Train related items is quite decent I would think), but after the grey era LEGO has been ambiguous about it and the way the company works means that they are not transparent about anything to anyone including AFOLs/fans (even not if you work together with them, e.g. one of my colleagues regularly supervises quite some students at TLG and has done for years, he is under very heavy NDA's for often somewhat trivial things).

[Shiva]

9 hours ago, Bensch55 said:

So, to summarize all of this:

After the debacle about the big scale HogEx Lego knew, whatever train they will release, it has to work on their standard track. They knew how fans felt, yet they agreed on an ideas project that would never be able to accomplish this without a big amount of modifications. They also agree to do this with a licence partner that wants to be very involved with the set, limiting the design choices even more.

And what came out of it? A fictional locomotive that wouldn't be motorized due to Lego's standards, two fancy looking coaches that look really odd when rolling through the tight R40 curves and to add insult to injury, a markup on the prize for what is essentially a big marketing exercise of the licence holder.

At the same time, some other manufacturer managed to get close to the original design from Lego Ideas and finally even provided track with bigger radii.

The argument about the "very small amount of train enthusiasts" also perishes when you take a look on the portfolio of certain german retailers that have been successfully in business for years.

You still like the set? Good, go buy it and have fun. But be aware that praising every set TLG puts on the table and defending them for every design choice they make is just turning a blind eye on the situation and will never encourage them to do better. 

And that's my final contribution to this discussion.

Finally, wider than 6 studs train wagons. It is as if going from 4 stud wide racers to 6 stud wide Speed Champions. Not quite on the level of 8 wide Speed Champions. That, would have rocked, in my opinion. But, would been quite costly too.

Well, atleast the wagons can take those tight R40 curves. + the locomotive can be motorized, even tho not up to LEGO's own standards..

[dtomsen]

20 hours ago, Shiva said:

Finally, wider than 6 studs train wagons. It is as if going from 4 stud wide racers to 6 stud wide Speed Champions. Not quite on the level of 8 wide Speed Champions. That, would have rocked, in my opinion. But, would been quite costly too.

Well, atleast the wagons can take those tight R40 curves. + the locomotive can be motorized, even tho not up to LEGO's own standards..

You mean down to TLG's own standards 

Ball bearings and metal axles are inherently better traction solutions than current plastic one provided.
Heck, even the rubber bands from the Crocodile train set would be an instant improvement. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by dtomsen

[Kalahari134]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:11 AM, Bensch55 said:

The only ones that benefit from this are TLG and the licence holder, while the consumer has to compensate the markup

I hate to break it to you, but they're not a charity.

On 12/7/2023 at 6:11 AM, Bensch55 said:

And in the case they absolutely have to do it, why do they not partner up with an active railroad company?

Orient Express is very much an active brand, more so now than it was when CIWL ran it.

Besides, they've partnered with BNSF and Maersk (though the latter doesn't really operate trains)