42146 - Liebherr LR13000

[williamyzfr1]

34 minutes ago, Lego Tom said:

What is the "problem" with the control+ ? I have no issues with mine. Am I missing something?

There is no love for Control+ on this Forum although I have no issues with it either.

[allanp]

13 hours ago, Lego Tom said:

What is the "problem" with the control+ ? I have no issues with mine. Am I missing something?

This is a can of worms, but in short, we really don't like using a phone touch screen to control the model, we want a physical controller with real buttons and levers and such. Replacing a proper, physical controller with an app is cheap and nasty even if the app was well developed, which it isn't. Then there's the reliance on the need to code if you want to make a MOC. Lego is about building and playing in the real world, not coding in the computer. But now they have given us that ability, it would be regressive to remove it now. Besides, that's what mindstorms was for, and now it's dead! Then there's the whole being reliant on third party smart devices in general. Smart devices and their operating systems go obsolete in no time at all. By tying their products to smart devices they have given their expensive products the same short lifespan. While some may complain that a physical controller would be expensive, I had to buy a new phone because my old phone couldn't run the powered up app. How on earth can someone be excluded from buying a Lego set because their phone isn't new enough?! I bought this phone when the Liebherr excavator was released, it was the very latest and quite expensive smart phone at the time and will likely be obsolete soon. Lego should be a way to get away from our screens, not push us more towards them. And kids lives today seem dominated by the bloody things, either they spend too much time on them, face real online dangers from them, get mental health issues from them due to seeing everyone else's lives through the edited highlights of social media, or they can be bullied if their parents aren't rich enough to spend their money on buying a smart devices for their young kids. We are in a cost of living crisis, and the last thing parents need is even more pressure to buy their kids a smart phone, and definitely not from Lego of all places. But Lego, instead of caring about any of that, just assumes every kid has one and if they don't, tough because they want even more profits then they already have. 

It should be said though, while I think most of us here would agree with the need for physical remotes,  and many would agree with a lot of it, some of the points I have mentioned here (namely the point about children's mental health and safety online) have only been brought up by me afaik, these are my views. I can't speak for the whole forum on anything.

Edited December 26, 2023 by allanp

[Lego Tom]

5 hours ago, allanp said:

This is a can of worms, but in short, we really don't like using a phone touch screen to control the model, we want a physical controller with real buttons and levers and such. Replacing a proper, physical controller with an app is cheap and nasty even if the app was well developed, which it isn't. Then there's the reliance on the need to code if you want to make a MOC. Lego is about building and playing in the real world, not coding in the computer. But now they have given us that ability, it would be regressive to remove it now. Besides, that's what mindstorms was for, and now it's dead! Then there's the whole being reliant on third party smart devices in general. Smart devices and their operating systems go obsolete in no time at all. By tying their products to smart devices they have given their expensive products the same short lifespan. While some may complain that a physical controller would be expensive, I had to buy a new phone because my old phone couldn't run the powered up app. How on earth can someone be excluded from buying a Lego set because their phone isn't new enough?! I bought this phone when the Liebherr excavator was released, it was the very latest and quite expensive smart phone at the time and will likely be obsolete soon. Lego should be a way to get away from our screens, not push us more towards them. And kids lives today seem dominated by the bloody things, either they spend too much time on them, face real online dangers from them, get mental health issues from them due to seeing everyone else's lives through the edited highlights of social media, or they can be bullied if their parents aren't rich enough to spend their money on buying a smart devices for their young kids. We are in a cost of living crisis, and the last thing parents need is even more pressure to buy their kids a smart phone, and definitely not from Lego of all places. But Lego, instead of caring about any of that, just assumes every kid has one and if they don't, tough because they want even more profits then they already have. 

It should be said though, while I think most of us here would agree with the need for physical remotes,  and many would agree with a lot of it, some of the points I have mentioned here (namely the point about children's mental health and safety online) have only been brought up by me afaik, these are my views. I can't speak for the whole forum on anything.

Thanks for the reply and sharing your reasoning. I can see the reasoning behind a separate controller, though they too can become outdated/discontinued, leaving users stranded. I can also understand liking physical controls over touch controls.

As for control+, I don't fear obsolescence too much. Should LEGO abandon it, and assuming they don't replace it with a another app, I suspect an enterprising programmer will produce something that may even be better.

[allanp]

1 hour ago, Lego Tom said:

Thanks for the reply and sharing your reasoning. I can see the reasoning behind a separate controller, though they too can become outdated/discontinued, leaving users stranded. I can also understand liking physical controls over touch controls.

As for control+, I don't fear obsolescence too much. Should LEGO abandon it, and assuming they don't replace it with a another app, I suspect an enterprising programmer will produce something that may even be better.

If I'm paying anywhere near full price then I don't want to have to expect some enterprising programmer to step in where Lego buggered off from! The old control centers from the early 90s are still just as functional and reprogrammable today as they were when they was first released, same with the code pilot from 1997. The programs of today might be comparatively more complicated and require a small screen to make, but small screens and a few buttons really aren't that expensive to incorporate into a new "control center +" type remote nowadays. The original control centers and code pilot haven't left anyone stranded at all. They have been discontinued for at least 2 or 3 decades at least but will never be useless landfill as they still work perfectly. They never needed support from third party devices, smart phones, computers, fan developers which can come and go or anything.  You might have to clean the contacts for the wires but that's about it. The wires themselves unfortunately had a habit of degrading but even those can be replaced fairly easily, and modern wire coatings don't rot nearly as much if at all.The thing is, Lego is priced like quality, heirloom items that can be passed down through generations, the bricks made in the 50's still fit with the bricks of today. Longevity over many decades is very important FOR Lego but doesn't seem to be very important TO Lego anymore. But (to bring things back to the LR13000 for a moment), the quality of the rest of the set still seems very good and will last a lifetime. The rest of it is heirloom grade Lego as far as I can tell. The design and build is excellent and you get so many large frames and truss pieces that if you can find one for a price that's about what you would pay if it didn't have any PU components then it's a really good deal actually. It feels about as big and strong as a fairly large Meccano crane if anyone remembers Meccano! This thing has an enormous overhang from the front of the tracks to the hook, and most of the power from the hook winch motor is very efficiently directed right to that hook. So the fact that, given enough counterweight, you can stall the hook winch motor without breaking anything on the crane is a testament to how solidly and authentically engineered this set really is. The tracks could do with some D11 style tensioners but that's about it. I do think there are AFOLs out there that are willing to pay 700 euro for a truly spectacular set. This thing could have been it, if it wasn't for the afore mentioned PU issues and shortcomings. If it had a physical (maybe even fully programmable 90s control center size) remote with dual, twin axis joysticks and so on, then the value would have been much easier to see even if they couldn't actually afford to spend that on Lego. There's 20 dollar kids toys that come with some form of physical remote, for 700 dollars there's really no excuse to replace it with an app!

Edited December 26, 2023 by allanp

[zoo]

7 hours ago, allanp said:

How on earth can someone be excluded from buying a Lego set because their phone isn't new enough?! I bought this phone when the Liebherr excavator was released, it was the very latest and quite expensive smart phone at the time and will likely be obsolete soon. Lego should be a way to get away from our screens, not push us more towards them. And kids lives today seem dominated by the bloody things, either they spend too much time on them, face real online dangers from them, get mental health issues from them due to seeing everyone else's lives through the edited highlights of social media, or they can be bullied if their parents aren't rich enough to spend their money on buying a smart devices for their young kids.

Very well put. I fully share your concerns. I also think about how in the current world we live in everything comes down to what will give the best ROI at this very moment. Not much thought goes in to the long term environmental costs driven by the need to produce new hardware for example.

[howitzer]

On 12/26/2023 at 12:11 AM, allanp said:

If you can ignore the whole control+ thing it's a actually pretty great model. Ideally, you'd want a discount roughly equal to the cost of the two hubs at least, then you don't feel like you're paying for them! @kbalage has a good price breakdown on it in part 2 of his review. 

So... now it's discounted to 440€ which is almost the same as in Black Friday when I nearly bought it. I watched the kbalage's video about the price breakdown and according to his estimate I'd be getting the electronics and counterweights essentially for free.

[allanp]

7 hours ago, howitzer said:

So... now it's discounted to 440€ which is almost the same as in Black Friday when I nearly bought it. I watched the kbalage's video about the price breakdown and according to his estimate I'd be getting the electronics and counterweights essentially for free.

It's only my opinion but I'd say that's a good deal.

[vanczakp]

On 12/25/2023 at 11:11 PM, allanp said:

If you can ignore the whole control+ thing it's a actually pretty great model. Ideally, you'd want a discount roughly equal to the cost of the two hubs at least, then you don't feel like you're paying for them! @kbalage has a good price breakdown on it in part 2 of his review. 

Im planning a release of the powered up app version of the crane control, with adjustable control panel includeing calibration when I figured out how to do it.

Would there be demand for it?

So far the calibration sequence works. Next is to limit the movement of a motor between two limit position. Then comes the weight counter an some kind of sound warning of overload.

 

[JaBaCaDaBra]

12 minutes ago, vanczakp said:

Would there be demand for it?

Absolutely.

[Lego Tom]

4 hours ago, vanczakp said:

Im planning a release of the powered up app version of the crane control, with adjustable control panel includeing calibration when I figured out how to do it.

Would there be demand for it?

So far the calibration sequence works. Next is to limit the movement of a motor between two limit position. Then comes the weight counter an some kind of sound warning of overload.

 

Would calibration be able to compensate for those who made the boom longer and thus added extra nylon cord?

[vanczakp]

11 hours ago, Lego Tom said:

Would calibration be able to compensate for those who made the boom longer and thus added extra nylon cord?

Sure. Lego did not release the parameters of the original, so I made the program measuring how much rotation is a full calibration, then the result is the working range of motor.

only one limitation: each time you turn on the hub the motors position values reseted to 0. This means each play requires a quick calibration. I can make it to go back to the initial position from where you started the calibration.

[vanczakp]

14 minutes ago, vanczakp said:

Sure. Lego did not release the parameters of the original, so I made the program measuring how much rotation is a full calibration, then the result is the working range of motor.

only one limitation: each time you turn on the hub the motors position values reseted to 0. This means each play requires a quick calibration. I can make it to go back to the initial position from where you started the calibration.

If the load measurment would work I imagined I will finish in few days then comes the documentation. Other features work now. I will show how to drive he track with joystic as well.

[howitzer]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:36 PM, vanczakp said:

Would there be demand for it?

This would be great!

[Lego Tom]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:05 AM, vanczakp said:

Sure. Lego did not release the parameters of the original, so I made the program measuring how much rotation is a full calibration, then the result is the working range of motor.

only one limitation: each time you turn on the hub the motors position values reseted to 0. This means each play requires a quick calibration. I can make it to go back to the initial position from where you started the calibration.

Actually, calibration isn't needed unless you are inept at watching things as they operate. LEGO undoubtedly has them to keep people from screwing up - kind of like warnings on bottles to open other end. 

[vanczakp]

17 minutes ago, Lego Tom said:

Actually, calibration isn't needed unless you are inept at watching things as they operate. LEGO undoubtedly has them to keep people from screwing up - kind of like warnings on bottles to open other end. 

I will explain how to create simple control without calibration function in the forthcoming documentation

What I'm going to do is two program: first calibration (it is not a must if you have original set, but advised, and must when you changed cable lengt's). This will give you 3 values: the working range of the 3 whinches motors. The second app is a copy of the first, and sligthly modified: This would know the working range, and befor allowing to play with the booms, a quick - and faster than control+) calibration comes, which finds the end position, stores it, then the booms go back to the initial position where you started the program (optional).

My weight measurment sequence now works properly, and now it is dependent of the turntable position, like at the control+ app. As the crawler footrpint is not a square but a rectangle, the allowed weight is higher when it faces front or backwars. The lowest is when it is rotated 90 or 270deg.

I'm going to add a 0-100 current load indicator to the screen as well which is better than the bar like stuff in control+

Due to the mentioned position reset after restart I'm going to set the limit to the smallest until a button is not pressed when the turntable is in 0 or 180deg position. (calibration again, and it is optional).

Edited December 30, 2023 by vanczakp
rephrasing again

[anyUser]

On 12/30/2023 at 2:24 PM, Lego Tom said:

Actually, calibration isn't needed unless you are inept at watching things as they operate. LEGO undoubtedly has them to keep people from screwing up - kind of like warnings on bottles to open other end. 

Calibration is used by the Lego App to move the boom to pre-set position (e.g. from that extra control panel).

Other than that i would prefer a mode that gives me full control of the winches.Why isn't there a low-level algorithm that frequently checks either for rpm or motor current to detect a stall-state?

 

Did anybody else found that the tracks freqently slip on the drive wheel? It seems to be omre often if the crane carries a load or if I am driving small turns.

Edited January 2 by anyUser

[vanczakp]

1 hour ago, anyUser said:

Calibration is used by the Lego App to move the boom to pre-set position (e.g. from that extra control panel).

Other than that i would prefer a mode that gives me full control of the winches.Why isn't there a low-level algorithm that frequently checks either for rpm or motor current to detect a stall-state?

 

Did anybody else found that the tracks freqently slip on the drive wheel? It seems to be omre often if the crane carries a load or if I am driving small turns.

Yep, mine does it too, especially on a carpet. Tried to remove one piece but then it is way too tense and broke itself. Got it a bit tensed with additional lego parts but nothing. Problem is the motor strong enough + chain is flexible in each direction + chain is loose therefore it cannot pull it from the top side to make it tense on the bottom while running reverse.
Only way is to convert it to four sprockets driven. 
 

Anyway Im close to get the final version of the custom controll app, and the tank like one stick control now works like a real tank. Way mich enjoyable. I have to set up some kind of characteristic of the stick as the tracks does not move under 50% speed. 

Edited January 2 by vanczakp
Update

[nugnug115]

Hello everyone! I recently bought the LR 13000 set with the intention of really redesigning the entire model to create my own crane. In the process of doing this I seem to have created a crane that is to large to use the very expensive and specialized parts that came with this set out of the box. The boom parts and ballast brick parts along with a few others are now out of scale with my crane and are thus no use to me. Instead of keeping them in my collection to maybe be never used I want to sell them all as a package deal. This would be perfect for someone who wants to make there own LEGO LR 13000 set more accurate or just to make a super crane! Im selling all of the yellow and dark grey boom parts along with 48 ballast bricks which is double you get in the set. Also I will be throwing in all 4 white winch drums , all 3 strings , and the 2 ball roll parts for FREE. I calculated the price by going to bricklink and searching for the LOWEST price per part in the US. That gave me a price of just under $400. Im asking for $420 with shipping included to anywhere in the continental United States. Feel free to ask me any questions!

 

 

[Ngoc Nguyen]

5 hours ago, nugnug115 said:

Im asking for $420 with shipping included to anywhere in the continental United States.

Given that one can already buy a new 42146 these days with that amount of money or even less, your offer doesn't sound attractive. Make it 150$ then I'll consider.

Edited January 4 by Ngoc Nguyen

[Oh_Hi_Mao]

8 hours ago, nugnug115 said:

 That gave me a price of just under $400. Im asking for $420 with shipping included to anywhere in the continental United States.

It does make sense to buy second hand crane for this price.

Edited January 4 by Oh_Hi_Mao

[Aleh]

To be honest prices in the USA are higher than in EU, imo. But agree - 150-200 is an attractive price.

Anyway I/m investigating to purchase some additional yellow frames to extend my set OR build an attractive MOC :)

[Lego Tom]

10 hours ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

Given that one can already buy a new 42146 these days with that amount of money or even less, your offer doesn't sound attractive. Make it 150$ then I'll consider.

Not in the US. Prices remain at or very near MSRP.

[Andman]

On 11/30/2023 at 1:00 AM, Andman said:

Guys... Started to build this set. The instructions asked me to test. Guess what... all 6 L angular motors do not work. The test in control+ doesn't recognise them.

I verified with an older angular motor that the new hubs are ok. They got the firmware update through powered up before the test. The new L angular motor in return do not work on any hub, older ones and new ones.

I'm so disappointed. At that price point it is hard to accept something like this. One or two maybe. But all if them?

I'm not aware of any possible fix for the motors. But if there is, let me know.

Will contact TLG soon.

Just a quick follow up. It turned to be a firmware problem. Prior to testing the hubs, I downloaded an update via powered up. So I thought everything is fine regarding the firmware. It turned out not to be true. I don't know the details behind the scenes, but a forced firmware update via the C+ app helped. All motors are working.

I posted the procedure I had to follow here

[vanczakp]

Hi all,

I have decreased the play of the turntable today together with the turntable gear ratio update. Originaly it was 1/35. Now it is 1/63. For decreasing the play you will need 2pcs of 4L axle. Ratio change: 1pc 8T gear and 2pcs 24T gears.

2nd: gear update with 25years old parts :D
And here is where LEGO failed. 3L axle was used insted of 4L, see how big is the play

3: change the brown 3L axles to 4L (you can see the black axle sitting in the yellow link)

4: Elemination of top side play due to way too big clearance

Solution: 4-5 layer duct tape each side:

These steps reduced the total play of turntable by 50%. 

[howitzer]

So today I ordered the set with a nice discounted price of 440€. Going to comment on my feelings about it when I have finished the build and played with it a bit. Hopefully I can then decide if this was a good use of my money...