Young son finished building Bucket Excavator...Whats next

[halfnine]

I need some help planning out future technic build possibilities for my son who is approaching 6 years of age.  He started out with the simple builds but as he finished one I'd get a larger and more challenging set for him.  As such he eventually moved from the smaller sets into 42037, 42038, 42042, and then 42055 which he just recently finished.  I don't help him out with the instructions but from time to time I do help him find pieces and provide some muscle to get some of the more difficult structures connected together.  Now he is asking what's next.  It's a good question.

Up until now I've mainly kept it to official Lego sets.  He found MOC pdf or lxf builds a bit  frustrating as they certainly aren't always up to the quality of Lego building instructions.   But at some point building MOCs instead of official Lego sets would probably be the next step up for him.  Technically we do have set 42043 but I parted it out long ago for him to use the parts for his own creations.  We also have the parts necessary to build nearly all the models for both of Isogawa's Power Functions Idea Books.  I've also purchased Sariel's Unofficial Lego Technic Builder's guide so that I could try to keep up with what he was building and explain some of the concepts to him.  I don't press it as I'd like to keep it light, fun and challenging.  But he's picked up a few basic concepts.  For instance, he's actually gotten fairly efficient at creating structures that can gear up or gear down (well better than me but that isn't really saying much) and knows when to utilize them.  And he has had fun building different steering mechanisms.  Recently, he has also shown quite an interest in GBCs and we got a few knock-off balls so that he could use the Bucket Excavator as one.

Any guidance on how I can help him continue with his Lego Technic passion would be appreciated.

[BusterHaus]

It sounds like you have quite the little achiever on your hands.  My suggestion would be to focus on smaller builds, where mechanisms are easier to see and understand.  Isogawa's books are great for this.  They will help cement the basics of mechanics that can then be applied to his MOCs. 

I also wouldn't give up on PDF instructions at Rebrickable. They are a very good way to study different building techniques and offer challenges that Lego does not (as you have noticed).  I would still stick to smaller models. 

I think the bottom line is that your son doesn't have to master this hobby in the next 6 months.  It's OK for him to go back to building smaller models, to make mistakes while he builds his own creations and to be challenged by different instructions.  You can use Lego to teach more than just mechanics and manual dexterity.  It can be used to develop patience,  perseverance and planning skills.  

[Dafgek81]

On MOC plans and Rebrickable there are very good pdf and lxf MOC instructions for sale, sometimes even better then TLG provides.

[brunojj1]

2 hours ago, halfnine said:

...

Any guidance on how I can help him continue with his Lego Technic passion would be appreciated.

First of all - welcome to EB and a happy New Year to everybody!

To your "problem" : You shouldn´t be worried at all and if you want him develop further, I would say let him rather disassemble a few sets and do what he wants to do finding out for himself. If he could develop such skills at this age already asking "what´s next?" - he should try to do something new out of his own mind. I wish my 7 year old son had this passion and making such efforts ... And by the way - he should find the needed parts himself as well !

[J_C]

Sit down with him, design something completely new together from scratch, the most logical next step. Simple as that. 

Otherwise, if you want to stick with building according to instructions, there are heaps of good instructions on rebrickable, mocpages etc.

[halfnine]

2 hours ago, BusterHaus said:

It sounds like you have quite the little achiever on your hands.  My suggestion would be to focus on smaller builds, where mechanisms are easier to see and understand.  Isogawa's books are great for this.  They will help cement the basics of mechanics that can then be applied to his MOCs.

That's kind of the line of thinking I had.

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I also wouldn't give up on PDF instructions at Rebrickable. They are a very good way to study different building techniques and offer challenges that Lego does not (as you have noticed).  I would still stick to smaller models. 

I think you're right.  I need to focus on the smaller model  MOCs for him. The Rebrickable models do seem hit and miss in the quality of instructions but a smaller model should decrease a build up of frustration.  He has been working off a old tiny Kindle Fire tablet but I might have to cave in and get him a bigger screen to work off of as well.

 

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I think the bottom line is that your son doesn't have to master this hobby in the next 6 months.  It's OK for him to go back to building smaller models, to make mistakes while he builds his own creations and to be challenged by different instructions.  You can use Lego to teach more than just mechanics and manual dexterity.  It can be used to develop patience,  perseverance and planning skills.  

Yeah, I've never really pressured him to do larger models.  But I have had the next new set or two sit sitting around in boxes on the shelves and have always told him when he mastered the previous set he was welcome to have a go.  He generally didn't ask right away and would be content to do a lot of his own smaller builds (mostly system bricks) for a while before asking for the next step up.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2017 by halfnine

[thatrabidhobo]

Every kid is different so I can only share my experiences with my son of 4 years and 10 months. He cannot build with Technic yet since he doesn't have the hand strength but is working with System/City/Creator just fine. 

Avoiding frustration is key. Even though my son can follow the instructions for more complicated sets, his excitement turns to boredom then frustration if he repeatedly adds parts page after page and still can't recognize the component he is building. So, we focus on smallish sets or sets where recognizable components are finished often enough i.e. finishing a vehicle cab, finally adding wheels, installing a completed plane wing, etc. 

Something that helped him really start to understand the potential of Legos is the Creator sets. Having a fixed set of pieces and seeing clearly all the different uses for these pieces... not sure how to describe it. It's like a light bulb went off in his head and can now come up with some decent build ideas. His understanding of the Lego instructions leaped, too. Once he gets into Technic I will introduce him to B and C models instead of buying many different sets.

A great moment we had is he got to build one of my old System sets and I bought a Technic set for myself. We assembled our respective sets at the same table, and we shared and talked about them as they were completed. He got to see how my set came together, how it worked, and now knows someday he will get to build it, too. He now has something to look forward too. 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheMindGarage]

Wow - you might have a future LEGO designer in your family! I'd suggest getting your son to build something simple on his own, or to "dissect" the official sets and look in more detail at how they work (start with something simple like the go-kart set with its transmission).

[nerdsforprez]

The above are some great comments......and here are just my two cents. 

Answers to these questions are usually focused on visuo-spatial reasoning.... and rightly so.  That is primarily to target area in the brain when one builds with Lego.  However, Lego is so versatile there are so many other areas to target, I think even TLG misses some opportunities in terms of their marketing. 

When completing a set from instructions, visuo-spatial reasoning is typically at play, and pretty much the only thing at play.  The decision process of how to accumulate pieces, coloring, instructions, etc is all done for you.  When doing a MOC, however, or even a MOC from someone else, you get to exercise a totally different part of the brain.  Called executive functioning.  If not familiar with what that is or means, look it up.  Essentially, it allows you to be more like a CEO than a regular employee like in a business. Instead of just carrying out the demands of others, you get to make demands yourself.  You get to choose the MOC, the coloring, etc.  Instructions might be harder, but with assistance, perhaps he can figure things out.  When he is stuck, talk him through his thoughts.  This again gets a whole new area of the brain activated.  As mentioned, Lego building is typically a non-verbal activity (visuo-spatial reasoning) - but, in working with kids, if you can get them to talk about what they are thinking then you also work their verbal centers (which is, again, a whole new are of the brain).  Lastly, when doing a MOC you can teach skills that are totally outside of the realm of Lego, yet totally inside the realm of MOCing.  What I mean by this is that not only do you get to plan the build itself, but you get to plan how that build will come to fruition (like I mentioned, when building a set that is already done for you..... just go the store, online, wherever to pick the set up.  When MOCing you have to figure out all the logistics).  Shopping for pieces, colors, etc. might sound like a bore, and for some, myself included.....it is because we do Lego building for a hobby.  We don't necessarily want to engage in building for "real-life" experiences - we get enough of that at work.  We build to perhaps lose the constraints of real life.  But for children, not only do you want fun at play, but if you are in the business of building skills as well then you want at least some of the building to emulate real-life experiences.  I remember years ago when my son really really wanted to brickink the UCS MF together as a father-son project.  We financially could do that .... so, great I said lets get to work.  As we did, however, we set a budget, and I told my son that we would not be exceeding that budget.  For anyone that knows the UCS MF well, you understand that one can save a lot of money by supplementing the original parts with other parts that look very much like them.  Also, as we got working my son was googling things himself and he found several sets with interiors, and he was adamant that he wanted an interior.  But as I educated him on all the pieces required to do an interior, and their cost it became apparent to him that he would not be able to have original parts.  Although I didn't financially really have to place restrictions on him I thought it would be good for him because that is just like in real life.  Even if you are asked to design something massive, like a building, bridge, whatever, there will always be budget constraints.  weighing how much you want a thing, and comparing that with your resources is a life-skill, translating to an infinite number of scenarios in life.    When my son came to a decision.... he decided to go with using non-original parts.  As we worked we spent much time on the internet shopping for parts.  Inevitably, he came across more pictures and came up with more ideas of what he wanted to do.  He wanted lights and landing gear.  Was adamant, once again that he wanted these things on his ship.  Some education was needed, and I told him this was not possible with the budget we had.  He had a choice, he could either lose the demands of the PF lights and landing gear or some up with another solution altogether.   He stewed about it for about a week and then came to me with a question.  "Dad, can you combine two sets into one for one big MF, maybe not as big as the UCS but still bigger that other sets, and then add everything I want?"  -- And that is exactly what we did.  He needed help doing it all - but it was his idea.  We bought two  7965s (actually, it was more like three), blew up the dimensions, added pneumatic landing gear and lights (although no PF).  Not a jaw-dropping result, but it looked good when it was done and both of us had fun doing it.  Had it hanging in my office at one time.  Details can be found here: http://www.moc-pages.com/moc.php/369901

It is nothing special and was when I, myself was just getting back into MOCing, so I was unpracticed in taking good photos, video, etc.  The end result took much more time that I wanted it to and much more involvement on my end.  My little guy was around 10 when we did it so much older than your son, but I think the experience can apply to younger kids as well.  Just perhaps choose smaller projects but apply the same principles.  Even BL now has a little online MOC store with some decent MOC for kids...... I am sure there is something there he might like.  It may take more of your time but if you can make it happen I think it will get your son involved in so many other aspects other than the right-brained visuo-spatial reasoning of just building Lego itself......

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by nerdsforprez

[halfnine]

16 hours ago, J_C said:

Sit down with him, design something completely new together from scratch, the most logical next step. Simple as that. 

Otherwise, if you want to stick with building according to instructions, there are heaps of good instructions on rebrickable, mocpages etc.

Building something with him would be a disaster   Building legos from scratch isn't a skill I have and he wouldn't have the patience for me.  I can assure you while I am fascinated by what can be done with Technic it is a passion that is definitely his and not mine.

[J_C]

6 minutes ago, halfnine said:

Building something with him would be a disaster   Building legos from scratch isn't a skill I have and he wouldn't have the patience for me.  I can assure you while I am fascinated by what can be done with Technic it is a passion that is definitely his and not mine.

dad+son time. He will teach you something. If he is better at it, only the better. He will feel like a partner or even a teacher. You can only win, both of you.

[thatrabidhobo]

10 minutes ago, J_C said:

dad+son time. He will teach you something. If he is better at it, only the better. He will feel like a partner or even a teacher. You can only win, both of you.

Sage wisdom. Those moments are just as gold as watching your kid finally tie his shoes on his own.

[thatrabidhobo]

1 hour ago, nerdsforprez said:

When completing a set from instructions, visuo-spatial reasoning is typically at play, and pretty much the only thing at play.  The decision process of how to accumulate pieces, coloring, instructions, etc is all done for you.  When doing a MOC, however, or even a MOC from someone else, you get to exercise a totally different part of the brain.  Called executive functioning. 

My little guy was around 10 when we did it so much older than your son, but I think the experience can apply to younger kids as well.  Just perhaps choose smaller projects but apply the same principles.  Even BL now has a little online MOC store with some decent MOC for kids...... I am sure there is something there he might like.  It may take more of your time but if you can make it happen I think it will get your son involved in so many other aspects other than the right-brained visuo-spatial reasoning of just building Lego itself......

For those not all that familiar with executive function, if pushed, it can cause frustration and rejection with those younger than 10-12 because the frontal lobe/executive function just hasn't developed enough yet (source: the neuroscientist wife). This is why kids always want instant gratification (i.e. small sets) and cannot plan well (i.e. visualize a MOC and find a starting point, saving money for a big toy instead of a small one). Kids tend to figure things out as they build instead of step-by-step progressing to a finished image in their head. The point is, in kids it's less about practice and teaching than it is about having the right brain matter in play.

Nothing wrong with a little exposure, though.

As I typed this the wife kept talking about brain development and fun fact: the frontal lobe in males doesn't fully develop until about age 25 and women about age 19. Thanks dear.

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by thatrabidhobo

[Capparezza]

35 minutes ago, thatrabidhobo said:

As I typed this the wife kept talking about brain development and fun fact: the frontal lobe in males doesn't fully develop until about age 25 and women about age 19. Thanks dear.

Oh well, this explains a lot. I'm tempted to state that some males don't even fully develop it until they die

I'm sorry for having not a thing to contribute. Just wanted to drop my thanks, as my little one just had his 3rd birthday and is more and more interested in LEGO parts than his DUPLO stuff (Hell, this is going to be problematic for the LEGO owner... aka me). It's interesting how people try to tackle the building experience with their children and maybe I can learn a little bit here and there.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Capparezza

[thatrabidhobo]

18 minutes ago, Capparezza said:

It's interesting how people try to tackle the building experience with their children and maybe I can learn a little bit here and there.

At first I just wanted my kid to get exposed to Legos and see where it took us but I ended up fascinated at all the little things he developed. Reading the instructions left-to-right helped reinforced our teachings in reading words, learning to read the number count of a piece and then counting them out, eye-hand coordination on putting pieces together, etc. There is a lot of positive stuff going on I had not considered before.

My hope is all this will eventually lead to him to be mechanically inclined enough for complex Technic builds and then on to more practical things like working on household items, cars, etc. Long term plan, you see.

Edited January 2, 2017 by thatrabidhobo

[nerdsforprez]

2 hours ago, thatrabidhobo said:

For those not all that familiar with executive function, if pushed, it can cause frustration and rejection with those younger than 10-12 because the frontal lobe/executive function just hasn't developed enough yet (source: the neuroscientist wife). This is why kids always want instant gratification (i.e. small sets) and cannot plan well (i.e. visualize a MOC and find a starting point, saving money for a big toy instead of a small one). Kids tend to figure things out as they build instead of step-by-step progressing to a finished image in their head. The point is, in kids it's less about practice and teaching than it is about having the right brain matter in play.

Nothing wrong with a little exposure, though.

As I typed this the wife kept talking about brain development and fun fact: the frontal lobe in males doesn't fully develop until about age 25 and women about age 19. Thanks dear.

 

As a neuropsychologist....I can vouch for the information provided by your wife (not that she needs vouching for ) -- If fact..... some have hypothesized that the information provided by your wife is the biological structure of "maturity" -- Not sure I agree with it (perhaps much too abstract a concept to reduce the simple association of age and frontal lobe development) but the theory is out there!

Frustration is indeed always a danger, therefore, care needs to be taken.  HOwever, in children that excel, more executive demands may provide the answer. Prior to my current assignment, I worked in the area of pediatric neuropsychology an a fairly affluent community.  My job was just as much involved in helping advanced children excel as it was helping those with ADHD, Asperger's etc.  If the OP's son, at age six, is completing the BWE I can well venture a guess that he is more gifted than most children his age.  Perhaps not just increasing visuo-spatial demands is the answer (especially because in that area, the BWE is one of the more advanced sets TLG offers in Technic) but also engaging  a whole different area of the brain altogether.  Then again.... perhaps not  .

This is actually an area of high interest for me.  Musings about what Lego does in terms of brain function and development is fun..... speculative, but fun.  Don't even get me started and the muscle coordination, strength, fine motor skills that it requires.  Not to mention the understanding of physical laws needed, tactile comprehension and feedback....... etc...   

I would love a call from TLG with the funds to do some research in this area.  Gimme a PET scanner (the one that produces those pretty colorful images) and tons of participants willing to play with Lego while being scanned and doing many different things (artistic building, technic building, plain organizing, stepping on Lego ) and I would be in heaven.  I would venture that although there would likely be a lot of commonalities in areas involved I also think there would be many differences. 

[RohanBeckett]

This is my son's most recent invention.. doesn't do a lot, but he built the worm gearing box himself, after reading Sariel's book (and probably watching me build!)

 

He watches @Sariel videos all the time, and asked "Can I show this to him?"  so here it is! :)

He's lucky to have a Dad who builds a lot (I build GBC's) and he's learnt from a young age gears, motors, and pneumatics

 

We are a family of builders/fixers/creators... I do woodworking as another hobby.. so does his uncle.. Grandfather is model trains, and engineering...  so I guess for us, this comes natural.

We DO try to keep things in balance... not too much Lego.. not too much screen time.. and now, after almost 7 years.. it's nice to see him pretty well rounded.. still loves finding bugs in the backyard.. climbing trees.. or hammering and nailing scraps of wood.  All these skills combine to produce something greater than a single skillset alone

and here's what a Christmas present turned into, 2 days after it was opened..:

was very amazed, that he got the 'ears' balanced... they fold back and the 'mouth' opens, when it goes forward at just the right speed!

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by RohanBeckett

[Lakop]

I don't think you need any more advice. My nephew dables into my lego from time to time, the only issue we have is in finding the right part. I like to rummage but your six year old might like to get his hands on the required part asap so, if you have not already, maybe sort the parts so he can find them easier.

Good luck with it and let us see what he builds.

H

[Myers Lego Technic]

@halfnine WOW! I Didn't start wit Technic until I was eight..... I'm sure he will look back and appreciate the practice he is getting now- leading to a better advancement of skills that could be applied in later life, from a fine motor to even a basic automotive engineering- I'm sure this will help him surpass other children his age, and later I'm sure he will thank you for the immersion. 

 

 

(P.S. @RohanBeckett God, He has nicer pneumatic pieces than I do...) 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Myers Lego Technic

[Blakbird]

If he built the Bucket Wheel Excavator at age 6, I think you have a prodigy on your hands and you should feed his enthusiasm.  If you venture into the world of building MOCs from instructions, there is a wide range of quality both in the models themselves and in the instructions.  Jurgen Krooshoop, Madoca, and Crowkillers would be good examples of builders who have good MOCs with good instructions.  Any of those models would probably be really cool for him and would be somewhat more challenging than an official set.  Of course, someone has to collect the parts first....

[DrJB]

It's a tough call, as to what challenge to put him up to next. From my experience, pushing those complex sets onto younger kids, while bolsters their self-esteem, might cause the interest to disappear soon. I had my son do challenging Technic builds as well at an early age. Now he's not interested in Lego anymore. So, tread 'carefully'.

[RohanBeckett]

On 1/4/2017 at 6:15 AM, Myers Lego Technic said:

(P.S. @RohanBeckett God, He has nicer pneumatic pieces than I do...) 

 

Ha.. if you think they are HIS, you are sadly mistaken! ;)

although he likes to think it's all his, from time to time!

 

@DrJB Yes... that thought had crossed my mind too... but for now, it's a fun hobby that we both enjoy together...  But I went through a lot of hobbies when I was younger.. Model Planes, Kites, building treehouses.. electronics.. Model Trains,( my fathers hobby).. 

But in the end... he's his own person, and he'll do whatever he wants in life... all we can do, is give him a good grounding.. as much experience and ideas as possible.. then off he goes!

[Sariel]

Say hi to your son from me ;)

[halfnine]

I wanted to thank everyone for their responses.  This thread spread off into some tangents I hadn't even thought about when I originally posted.  Since there were some common themes as opposed to responding to each response individually I'll just try to lump it one post here. 

As far building together as a father-son joint venture.  I can see where others are coming from.  But, it's a bit more complicated for us.  I am at home with the kids so I already spend 40-50 hours a week around him.  If anything we are often in danger of having too much dad+son time. And as with every child he has his gifts and he has his challenges so our individual time is often better spent on other life skills.  And, probably the best argument against a joint building venture (at least at this point in time) is that my wife also agrees it is a bad idea.

To those who have shown examples of their kids creations and what has worked for you....many thanks.  It has given me many options to think about.  My kid enjoyed looking at the pictures/videos as well and it gave him a few ideas.  One of those ideas after seeing both RohanBeckett's pneumatics and Sariel's hamster was to build a pneumatic hamster. 

As to visuo-spatial reasoning and executive function. Interesting topic so it might be best if I first explain how we ended up where we did.  In order to support skills such as delayed gratification, taking on challenges, focus and self control, and just plain having our kids finish what they started we setup our educational toys similar to what you might find in a Montessori classroom. Now our kids have plenty of objects/toys just to play with but our educational toys (of which I include the Lego Creator and Technic sets) we put up on shelves that they could easily see.  And, we generally try to keep something they are ready for now up there as well as well as a few iterations into the future to look forward to.  So, for instance when my son felt he was ready for the Formula Offroader he took it down but he could easily see the Arctic Truck and Crawler Crane next to it.  And from time to time he would pull those boxes down, study them and then put them back up knowing he wasn't quite ready for them yet. Anyway sometime I think in November or so he saw the BWE on one of the Youtube Lego channels and started pining for it. I didn't commit really one way or the other because I really thought the set was just too big and by the time he was ready he might just not be interested in it anyway.  But something lit a fire in him because in December he fired off the Arctic Truck, Crawler Crane, 10220 VW Bus and then ultimately the BWE.  So you can kind of get a picture where that left me.  In a very short period of time I was left with an empty shelf without a visual and touch and feel representation of what was next and no plan on how to reconcile that and move into a different direction. Hence, this thread.

Anyway, back to Visuo-spatial reasoning and executive function.  My knowledge is limited only to what I have read but our son does seem to have some favorable combination of the skills required for executive function, as well as visuo spatial reasoning, and to some an extent maybe eidetic memory.  And we do try to give him opportunities to use these skills in everyday life.  For instance, we will often let him plan and guide our journeys across town using his working memory of the bus routes alongside his eidetic memory of the train map.   Now, the main limiting factor he has with executive function is that his emotional regulation and frustration tolerance are definitely not up to the level of his other executive function skills (something he has no doubt inherited from his father).   And this is something I do have to keep in mind with whatever challenge he chooses or I might suggest.  But, it is quite possible that moving away from mainly visuo-spatial reasoning and towards executive function might well be the logical direction to go in his passion for lego as well.  At least in his desire for a challenge.  He does have plenty of opportunity to play with his legos and build freely but after a while he does crave the next level challenge as well.

As a final note, this journey with Lego has been quite amazing and unexpected.  It's certainly been great for my eldest son as it's allowed an opportunity to follow a passion with skills he was innately born with.  But even more amazing is how much it has helped my younger son with his focus and self control. 

 

[BlackpoolBricks]

My grandson is only 2yrs and nearly 6 months, I started him on standard lego at 18months and he can't get enough of it playing daily doing his own thing. I stepped him up to technic 6 months ago with a pull motor and his interest soared. Ok he cant follow the harder instructions yet but hes ok with city etc. I spent time with him though making the sorting and finding of bricks into a game with chocolate button rewards he does it matter of factly now. This christmas I went well overboard getting him 2 big sets from 2016 a pneumatic excavator and the artic Explorer sets. Weve had them built and pulled apart twice already and now he's started building his own basic motor and mechanical pieces with the help of 2 of Isogawas books on kindle. Its not just lego, he can go online and get onto youtube to find videos etc without assistance on both my pad and phone. Just keep playing along with him. As he'll learn from watching you as well. I may well have a genious on my hands as he can count to fifty, recite the alphabet forward and back, almost tell the time, and use all the technology in my house better than me. So im stepping him up to EV3 on his 3rd birthday. Im learning as much about this as he his.... just play and have fun together and get him sorting into seperate pots/trays and drawers.