Challenge IV, Category C thread.

[Hammerhand]

It's a Mirage… I hope - Guerrilla for the Desert King against Ulandus on (supposed to be) J13. If a Mod could change the title of my topic to say J13 instead of H13, that'd be great.

[SkaForHire]

The Desert King won an overwhelming victory in challenge 2 with 64% of the vote. We are claiming H13 as the free square.

And we already won H11 as stated in the rules of WZ2. :)

I was a bit rushed to finish the map. Those two will go on the map next week.

[MassEditor]

A GA for the Desert King against Ulandus at L16:

A Helping Hand

Also, I apologize for not doing a better job mentioning desired warzone selections in my other builds - I'll make sure to stay on top of that in future entries!

Edited April 5, 2015 by MassEditor

[MKJoshA]

A GA for the Desert King against Ulandus at K13!

[Umbra-Manis]

Counter for the Desert King: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=107892

[LordDan]

A GA against the High Council

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=107896#entry2185532

[Scarst]

My Counter To Lord Dan's and Goliaths Guerilla attacks on G5

Not Every Damsel is in Distress

[Garmadon]

@Ska: as it stands now all guerrilla builds posted against Ulandus after the seventh one can be either countered as extras or postponed until next week, right?

If that is so, the current Ulandus guerrilla situation is this:

BMS' and Umbra's on L15 are leftover from last week

Jacob Nion's and robuko's on K15 are also leftover

Jacob Nion's on O16 is new this week (and due this week, sorry about the confusion earlier, I thought it was on O15)

Tomsche's on H12 is for this week

Hammerhand's on H13 is for this week

Extras and leftovers for next week:

BMS' and Umbra's on L15 will still be left over

Jacob Nion's and robuko's on K15 will also still be left over

robuko's one on M15 is over the number this week, so we can deal with it next week

MassEditor's on L16 has the same problem

MKJ's on K13 is as well

I thought I should probably post this here so everyone isn't shocked if their guerrilla's have been postponed

Also maybe the DK should know that they have already filled up our quota for next week

[LordDan]

Thats why I didn't post my GA against Uandus, even though it would have probably worked better against them. I had a feeling that we might have gone just a little overboard with the number of attacks against Ulandus's

[MKJoshA]

@Ska: as it stands now all guerrilla builds posted against Ulandus after the seventh one can be either countered as extras or postponed until next week, right?

If that is so, the current Ulandus guerrilla situation is this:

BMS' and Umbra's on L15 are leftover from last week

Jacob Nion's and robuko's on K15 are also leftover

Jacob Nion's on O16 is new this week (and due this week, sorry about the confusion earlier, I thought it was on O15)

Tomsche's on H12 is for this week

Hammerhand's on H13 is for this week

Extras and leftovers for next week:

BMS' and Umbra's on L15 will still be left over

Jacob Nion's and robuko's on K15 will also still be left over

robuko's one on M15 is over the number this week, so we can deal with it next week

MassEditor's on L16 has the same problem

MKJ's on K13 is as well

I thought I should probably post this here so everyone isn't shocked if their guerrilla's have been postponed

Also maybe the DK should know that they have already filled up our quota for next week

I appreciate you putting all this up here, but I think we need to figure out how to proceed. We can't just postpone all those builds. That's not fair to all the builders who only get to post one GA a week.

[SkaForHire]

I believe the compromise was that builders could actually counter more than one MOC a week if the threshold was met.. I am not sure we should designate which ones are within the threshold and which ones are outside of it. But I would say that this means each Ulandian could theoretically counter five builds this week (6 above the counter threshold, although, I believe the two city attacks from last week are in the grey area here with legality -- However, you already won L15 because Umbra did not get enough approvals before the counter week was over.) If you think of this in terms of the story, there is an overwhelming attack happening, and Ulandus is rallying to its very core to try to counter. It is a lot of work, I know, but I am not sure what we can do here other than post a limit of GA against a faction -- which would limit who can participate on the DK side.

To MKJoshA, I think that isn't the problem, as you could just continue to make GAs... but the map isn't big enough to leave so many untouchable zones up at a time.

One other solution might be that if you have a MOC that is a GA attacking a city and thus has a extended counter time, that you cannot make another GA until your MOC has gone to voting. Of course some MOCs would have to be grandfathered in, but we could go forward with this. It would help make Cities even more risk reward.

Also, and I may have missed this before, but actually, GAs that are further than one zone in actually get an extra week as well.

Per the rules: "All cities (any place with multiple VP are cities on the map - check smaller Nice Marmot maps for details which city is where) have three weeks of counter time. Any zone deeply in enemy territory (More than two zones deep in all directions, including water) will have two weeks of counter time. Any zone in the "Special victory condition" area of the Desert King would also get two weeks to counter, since these are worth a lot at the end."

Edited April 7, 2015 by SkaForHire

[robuko]

If you think of this in terms of the story, there is an overwhelming attack happening, and Ulandus is rallying to its very core to try to counter.

This is the key point I think. It's a war game. If you can't respond to an attack in a war, you lose. The Desert King will be magnanimous in accepting the surrender of Ulandus.

My view is that it's not great to penalise builders for being too productive, that's the same as an incentive to not build.

A key point that seems to be a bit neglected in all this "DK is too strong" argument is that although they have had a storming start, it has only been enough to bring them up to parity with the other teams, which both started with a significant points advantage over the DK.

Edited April 7, 2015 by robuko

[Jacob Nion]

Before participating at the discussion I want to make clear that my opinion would of course not change if the leading team at the moment was not our own.

It's definitely not because of the rules, or the strength of a special team that DK is in a lead position right now. As I wrote earlier, before the game started I was thinking HC would be by far the strongest party. They have not only the most players, but also some of those who came up with the largest Kaliphlin builds. It's just luck that our team is the most active at the moment. But that can always change. What would you do, if let's say in three weeks only two DK players are active. Would you try to slow down the other factions?

A game isn't fair only because all teams are on the same level all the time. What would be the result of such a politics? Every team winning warzones rotatory? And at the end of war all teams having the same number of squares?

You can't keep a game thrilling or the odds open by regulating one team. Either the other teams are able to catch up or they lose.

The rules you made are definitely fair, Ska. There's no need for big changes.

I agree, that all teams should have a similar number of players. But the current situation has shown that this is no guarantee for similar chances to win. Ulandus is more successful at the moment with a few active players than HC with many inactive.

It should be clear that you cannot blame an active team for the inactivity of their opponents.

Would you ask a sports team to stop running because the players of the opponent team have temporarily left the pitch? (ok after typing that I realized the referee would probably make a break. But I hope the point is clear.)

Edited April 7, 2015 by Jacob Nion

[MassEditor]

I think Robuko and Jacob both make really strong arguments here. After five or six weeks of Challenge C, we're just now to an equal footing with U and HC (though not counting all those GAs Garmadon mentioned).

And the situation could totally find itself reversed if HC members kick into gear or a few more members join U or if DK members get busy with real life. For instance, my work picks up as the weather warms so I doubt I'll be able to maintain the level of activity I've shown so far. Vacations by a few of DK members could kill our momentum. I just don't think DK's victory is set in stone just yet.

Concerning the number of GAs against U this week, I'd be fine switching it against the HC if that's possible. I didn't realize we had already surpassed the threshold against U (though I am fully supportive of the threshold rule).

I just don't feel severely handicapping the DK is the best choice, at least not right now. Besides, I think I remember something in the prelude about the DK's rise being a matter of prophecy. How can one stop prophecy?

Seriously though, I think closing DK membership isn't a bad idea at this time.

Edited April 7, 2015 by MassEditor

[Garmadon]

Alright, sorry for the confusion but I figured the sooner we got this dealt with the better!

So the situation is this:

BMS' and Umbra's on L15 are leftover from last week (but are really not counted as they are not both approved)

Jacob Nion's and robuko's on K15 are also leftover (let's just leave these out of the equation so we're not in the grey )

Tomsche's on H12 is for this week

Hammerhand's on H13 is for this week

Jacob Nion's on O16 is new this week and due next week (deep in Ulander territory)

robuko's one on M15 is another two week guerrilla since it is more than two squares into Ulander territory

MassEditor's on L16 has the same problem

MKJ's on K13 is as well

No guerrillas will be postponed because they are over the limit. Tomsche's and Hammerhand's need to be countered this week or they will be lost, all other can be countered besides the one counter a week per person. Is that all correct?

@MKJ, Nothing will be postponed because it is over the limit if the above is right. However, this isn't just a battle of numbers, it also involves strategy, so you should also calculate how many weeks we will have to counter, what the limit is, and how much a square is worth before just throwing guerrillas at us. If all the DK members want to post guerrillas a few probably should be against the HC...

I agree with Jacob Nion that no change in the rules is necessary or to be desired. Certainly the DK should not be penalized for the awesome effort they have been putting into this challenge

Edit:

@MassEditor: it would be nice if yours was against the HC though!

Edited April 7, 2015 by Garmadon

[Kai NRG]

While I wholeheartedly agree that the DK should in no way be penalized for its effort, I don't see any reason to change the GA rules (no more guerrillas on a team than half that teams members). You are perfectly welcome to GA the HC any day!

Anyway, given the inside squares get more time rule I think we're doing fine.

[SkaForHire]

This is the key point I think. It's a war game. If you can't respond to an attack in a war, you lose. The Desert King will be magnanimous in accepting the surrender of Ulandus.

My view is that it's not great to penalise builders for being too productive, that's the same as an incentive to not build.

A key point that seems to be a bit neglected in all this "DK is too strong" argument is that although they have had a storming start, it has only been enough to bring them up to parity with the other teams, which both started with a significant points advantage over the DK.

I didn't quote Jacob and MassEditor here, but my response is geared towards all three.

Nothing suggested is penalizing DK specifically. Finding other ways that the other two factions can at least participate against what is thrown at them is the idea. If we were playing Risk, and one side was dominating, the game would be over in five hours and we would move on to another game. Challenge IV is months long, and if two sides get tired of playing then a lot of the value / fun is lost. Like I said elsewhere, I don't think people mind losing to DK, I think they don't like feeling as if they have no chance. In a long running game, we need to make sure there is some parity (not equality), the sports analogy is flawed because they are paid and it is a job, we are talking about a hobby and keeping a community together. The Yankees don't have to hang out with the Blue Jays after crushing them.

Again, I am not talking about handicapping, just giving the smaller amount of builders a chance to react. They don't have to win, but the ability to react should be there.

While I wholeheartedly agree that the DK should in no way be penalized for its effort, I don't see any reason to change the GA rules (no more guerrillas on a team than half that teams members). You are perfectly welcome to GA the HC any day!

See, I don't see why anybody thinks that the suggestion is to penalize the DK. That is not the solution, nor what I have suggested. Closing membership is not a penalty, allowing more counters is not a penalty, there are not penalties on the Desert King!

[Kai NRG]

Well, just on the side... from what I understand there is an individual category C winner as well right? So you know, even if your team doesn't do a whole lot and has no chance at winning, there's still some incentive for you to build personally. Except, to be sure, Garmadon and I have maxed out on builds every single week so no one else stands a chance... but other than that!

Actually, if you're Nocturnian or Avalonian you still have a shot at a laurel if there is going to be a winner from each guild. (And yes, I know that points aren't everything, just a factor in who wins.)

@Ska, edit: I suppose not - and I don't have any problem with allowing more counters - but making them lose a square would be penalizing them I think. Closing membership doesn't make sense to me because for one thing, at this stage of the game most super active builders are probably already signed up, and second, the DK doesn't even have the most members!

Edited April 7, 2015 by Kai NRG

[SkaForHire]

The square thing was just a suggestion, and added a bit more strategy. Also, I believe HC would have lost a square one of the first two weeks with that rule, so it would not just be DK

Here is the problem with numbers of members. That list represents three challenges. Many on that HC list said they were not participating in category C (same with some on Ulandus). There probably should have been a second list on this thread for people who plan to participate - that would give us a better idea of the numbers.

[Kai NRG]

Yes, I do agree with that second point. It's very hard to tell who's doing what though, unless of course they've said so.

By the way, it would be possible for a team to completely blow category C and still win the challenge because of their showing in the other two categories right?

[Jacob Nion]

And I thought cat C was only important for main story (who will rule) and the other categories were for individual winners.

[Disco86]

If all the DK members want to post guerrillas a few probably should be against the HC...

It wasn't us, who started a big attack focused on only one faction. You reap what you sow

[SkaForHire]

Yes, I do agree with that second point. It's very hard to tell who's doing what though, unless of course they've said so.

By the way, it would be possible for a team to completely blow category C and still win the challenge because of their showing in the other two categories right?

Right, with three sides it will be a little harder, especially if we have a three way tie.

[MKJoshA]

I didn't quote Jacob and MassEditor here, but my response is geared towards all three.

Nothing suggested is penalizing DK specifically. Finding other ways that the other two factions can at least participate against what is thrown at them is the idea. If we were playing Risk, and one side was dominating, the game would be over in five hours and we would move on to another game. Challenge IV is months long, and if two sides get tired of playing then a lot of the value / fun is lost. Like I said elsewhere, I don't think people mind losing to DK, I think they don't like feeling as if they have no chance. In a long running game, we need to make sure there is some parity (not equality), the sports analogy is flawed because they are paid and it is a job, we are talking about a hobby and keeping a community together. The Yankees don't have to hang out with the Blue Jays after crushing them.

Again, I am not talking about handicapping, just giving the smaller amount of builders a chance to react. They don't have to win, but the ability to react should be there.

Thank you Ska. I think this is what we all want in the end.

To any who are a little disgruntled against the DK team right now. Please know that we are following a strategy we think will help us win. That being said, we are not out to cause strife or division here in GoH. We are all here to have fun. So please know that our builds are meant to be part of the fun and are not meant to hurt anyone. I also want it known that we are not a Ulandus hating team It has just been part of the strategy so far. If this were Avalonia I would suggest we all go hug some trees right now. Since it's Kaliphlin, I'll suggest instead that we all go find a mummy to rub our shoulders

[Garmadon]

It wasn't us, who started a big attack focused on only one faction. You reap what you sow

Hey! My first two guerrillas were against the HC! (I suppose yours were too though, keep up the good work! )