Future Set Wishes and Speculation

[howitzer]

I believe fully RC backhoe would be too complex for an official Technic set, there's simply too many functions. Operating would get pretty difficult too, at least with phonescreen interface. Traditional compressor and manual pneumatics functions would still make for a pretty interesting and complex, flagship level set but I'm not sure if TLG would do that considering their urge to make every year's biggest set C+ (except for the supercars).

3 hours ago, gyenesvi said:

Wonder if that is really true. It might enable 8 speeds, on two parallel shafts, but for 8 functions you need to route the 8 functions in 8 separate directions, which would be super hard to do I guess..

I can see the problem, and it would be interesting to see someone attempt to do this.

[allanp]

2 hours ago, gyenesvi said:

It's true that breaking the gearbox into multiple sub-parts may help, especially separating front/rear functions, but even then the sheer amount of output axles that need to be routed would make it pretty complex.

And this too..

What I'd really like to see in this direction is a peristaltic pump based RC pneumatic solution that we concluded would be possible to run with pressurized air based on the experiments of @2GodBDGlory. Anyway, two of these huge hubs would not fit into a backhoe I think (next to all the motors that drive the actual functions).

It would be a massive challenge to say the least. It's a white whale of a project. But the problem with pretty much every RC technic set to date (maybe with the exception if the Zetros and this year's Liebherr) is that RC was implemented at the cost of mechanical authenticity. The same is true for the PF days as well. So instead of adding play value to authentic mechanisms, RC replaced them. Having individual motors power each individual mechanism isn't realistic and would be wasteful, as you would need at least 10 pumps, but each function is only getting power from a single pump, which is pretty slow and weak. Better to have somewhere between 4 and 8 pumps working together, with every function having access to the power of all pumps combined. But I do think it miiiiiiight be possible, if we get a new micro servo that's probably about 3x3x3 with a massive internal reduction, 5 of these to nicely control the 10 valves and another in the front axle for steering. Then you need one large motor for the main engine for drive and the multi pump compressor and one more micro servo for the mode switching. The main motor and compressor would be under the narrow hood and the hubs would be maybe mounted vertically Infront of each rear wheel? Or mounted under the rear axle perhaps. But yeah, with the current parts it's next to impossible, but with micro servo motors I think it becomes doable. But if the flagship absolutely has to be control+ and fully RC then that's the only way to do it for me, unless you make it truly monstrous in size which would require all new wheels and 3 stud diameter cylinders, which is even less likely! Besides, I really want this thing to play and function well, with lots of speed and power, not slow as molasses and with barely enough power to move itself. This thing if done with gearboxes and LAs would be more complex that 42009, which had so many spinning gears and axles that there was barely any power left to lower the outriggers, 95% of the motors output power was wasted on moving all it's gearing. The PF excavator barely had enough power to raise its own boom and the Liebherr excavator, whilst being quite powerful and very well engineered, moved way too slowly for a JCB backhoe.

With pneumatics, it really doesn't matter how complex it is, or through how many joints and sliding (side shift) parts the power has to go through, to maintain the same speed and power right to the function. No need for overly complex, power wasting gear trains which limit the number of functions you can have, just run the hoses to where the power is needed and it's job done. Think of it another way, if the completely unloaded compressors internal friction uses 20% of the motors power (I don't think it would use even that), and you have enough pumps to stall the motor at maximum pressure, that's 80% of the motors power routed directly to the function itself. Lower the front bucket and rear stabilisers and watch all 4 wheels reliably and easily fly up off the ground.

[pleegwat]

I just don't see RC pneumatics happening because of the absolute positioning problem. You'd have to go hydraulic to fix that, which I likewise don't see them ever doing.

[allanp]

58 minutes ago, pleegwat said:

I just don't see RC pneumatics happening because of the absolute positioning problem. You'd have to go hydraulic to fix that, which I likewise don't see them ever doing.

Hydraulics is the absolute dream! I don't think you need to worry about absolute positioning. You only need that for inverse kinematic control which isn't really needed or realistic for a backhoe. 

[gyenesvi]

4 hours ago, pleegwat said:

I just don't see RC pneumatics happening because of the absolute positioning problem. You'd have to go hydraulic to fix that, which I likewise don't see them ever doing.

I don't think either that you need absolute positioning for that, why would you? And as I mention above, no need for hydraulics either, pressurized air may work well enough, and that's much more plausible within the Lego system. See the conclusion in this thread:

@allanp, 3x3x3 servo is not really possible I think, definitely not with meaningful power, smallest we could hope for would be 3x3x5, like a GeekServo, but the lego version of that is actually 3x4x5 (small angular motor), because it needs a position encoder, unlike a real RC servo (though I think real RC servo control would be possible with the Technic hub, just would need proper firmware). Anyway, the beauty of the peristaltic pump is that it does not need a switch. Instead of a servo for every switch, there could be an M motor for each pump. True that it's not realistic, but at least would be plausible and playable. Definitely not 10 functions, I could imagine max 4. Maybe a 4-way gearbox could drive 4 pumps. But then there would be no simultaneous movements possible. It's a trade-off, like everything.

Edited December 23, 2023 by gyenesvi

[allanp]

10 hours ago, gyenesvi said:

I don't think either that you need absolute positioning for that, why would you? And as I mention above, no need for hydraulics either, pressurized air may work well enough, and that's much more plausible within the Lego system. See the conclusion in this thread:

@allanp, 3x3x3 servo is not really possible I think, definitely not with meaningful power, smallest we could hope for would be 3x3x5, like a GeekServo, but the lego version of that is actually 3x4x5 (small angular motor), because it needs a position encoder, unlike a real RC servo (though I think real RC servo control would be possible with the Technic hub, just would need proper firmware). Anyway, the beauty of the peristaltic pump is that it does not need a switch. Instead of a servo for every switch, there could be an M motor for each pump. True that it's not realistic, but at least would be plausible and playable. Definitely not 10 functions, I could imagine max 4. Maybe a 4-way gearbox could drive 4 pumps. But then there would be no simultaneous movements possible. It's a trade-off, like everything.

Of course you might be right, it gets even harder when you remove space from the 3x3 to add holes to connect to it. Buuuuuuut, if we made the holes only half a stud deep, and increased it to 3x3x4?

One of the 3x3x5 GeekServos has two outputs which makes things easier as you can sandwich the servo between two valves, and as the valves axle hole has fairly low friction, you could slide the servo left/right to interface with either of the two valves directly at the axle hole for a pretty much slop free engagement. You'd also program it so that the mode switching is disabled and greyed out if the servos aren't centered (like if you are still holding one of the other pneumatic functions). A line of 5 of those would be 25 studs long by 7 studs wide, or 21 x 9 studs depending on configuration. So here we have a 25x7 stud valve block that has to go along the length of the chassis. I still think that miiiiiiiight be possible with the hubs either side of it. However, if they are to try to usher in a new age of RC pneumatics, what if they had a pre built servo valve block thingy, each with two servo motors and two valves (totally enclosed with no manual lever) in a single block powered from a single port. Is that even possible?

BTW, all of this is assuming that they insist on every flagship being fully RC. It also assumes that they even want to continue to develope PU in it's current form, I am having doubts!

Edited December 24, 2023 by allanp

[2GodBDGlory]

All this discussion is reminding me a lot of my current WIP Backhoe! (Sadly left at school while I'm at home over Christmas)

The plan is for it to have 9 different RC pneumatic functions, as well as 6 other mechanical RC functions!

It's not using those peristaltic pumps, but I think there are some interesting solutions involved to get all that to happen, using just one PU hub and one MouldKing 6.0 control module.

It's mostly done mechanically, but does have some stretched proportions to fit everything in--larger rear tires would be extremely helpful!

Anyways, I look forward to finishing and sharing it

[Jundis]

As the missing numbers are 42165 and 42172 to 42177, here is my speculation (or rather wishlist) for 7 technic models for Summer 2024:

- Cargo Aircraft with lifting nose                               800 pieces    80€
- Flatbed Truck with rear crane (49.5 tires)           1200 pieces    119€
- RC Liebherr T274 Dump Truck (81.5 tires)        1200 pieces    159€
- RC Claas Tractor (81 and 107 tires) and trailer  2000 pieces    249€
- 3 Axle Mobile Crane (81.5 tires)                         2500 pieces    259€
- JCB Pneumatic Backhoe (107 tractor tires)       3500 pieces    349€
- McLaren 750S Spider Supercar                         3800 pieces    449€

[Jockos]

15 minutes ago, Jundis said:

As the missing numbers are 42165 and 42172 to 42177, here is my speculation (or rather wishlist) for 7 technic models for Summer 2024:

- Cargo Aircraft with lifting nose                               800 pieces    80€
- Flatbed Truck with rear crane (49.5 tires)           1200 pieces    119€
- RC Liebherr T274 Dump Truck (81.5 tires)        1200 pieces    159€
- RC Claas Tractor (81 and 107 tires) and trailer  2000 pieces    249€
- 3 Axle Mobile Crane (81.5 tires)                         2500 pieces    259€
- JCB Pneumatic Backhoe (107 tractor tires)       3500 pieces    349€
- McLaren 750S Spider Supercar                         3800 pieces    449€

I really like that list, there is hope at least one of them turns out to be true. Although there are rumours the 42165 will be a Merceses Benz pull-back, on brickset another number, 42196, appeared, so that makes me thinking about the huge gap.

[Ksen48]

Yes, the list is very good, I understand that these are just your thoughts, but I think Lego will not release so many cool sets at once... unfortunately for myself, I realized that the 1st wave of this year is so-so

[Ksen48]

5 hours ago, Jundis said:

Поскольку недостающие номера — 42165 и 42172–42177, вот мои предпочтения (или, скорее, список желаний) на 7 технических моделей лета 2024 года:

- Грузовой самолетовой с подъемным носом 800 шт. 80 €
- Бортовой грузовик с задним краном (шины 49,5) 1200 шт. 119 €
- RC Liebherr T274 Самосвал (шины 81,5) 1200 шт. 159 €
- Радиоуправляемый трактор Claas (шины 81 и 107) и прицеп 2000 штук 249€
- 3-осный автокран (шины 81,5) 2500 штук 259€
- Пневматический экскаватор-погрузчик JCB (107 тракторных шин) 3500 штук 349€
- McLaren 750S Spider Суперкар 3800 штук 449€

Yes, the list is very good, I understand that these are just your thoughts, but I think Lego will not release so many cool sets at once... unfortunately for myself, I realized that the 1st wave of this year is so-so

Edited January 17 by Ksen48

[Maaboo the Witch]

9 minutes ago, Ksen48 said:

the 1st wave of this year is so-so

If that.

[Jundis]

I purposely left out more IP cars than the upcoming supercar, as we had more than enough last year...

[Maaboo the Witch]

22 minutes ago, Jundis said:

I purposely left out more IP cars than the upcoming supercar, as we had more than enough last year...

I sense a "hold my beer" moment coming, courtesy of a company that will remain nameless.

[Ngoc Nguyen]

6 hours ago, Jundis said:

- JCB Pneumatic Backhoe (107 tractor tires)       3500 pieces    349€

I did half of that and it only took ~1300 pieces, and I dont think the crane arm will require 2000 pieces, so I think a proper JCB Pneumatic Backhoe no RC would cap at ~ 2000 pieces.

Speaking of which I have always wanted to go back to that model and finish the crane arm but have been caught up in other mini models.

Edited January 17 by Ngoc Nguyen

[Jundis]

5 minutes ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

I did half of that and it only took ~1300 pieces, and I dont think the crane arm will require 2000 pieces, so I think a proper JCB Pneumatic Backhoe no RC would cap at ~ 2000 pieces.

Speaking of which I have always wanted to go back to that model and finish the crane arm but have been caught up in other mini models.

At first I thought it would be about the piece count of the 42054 (about 2000), but with a front arm and maybe more gears, it would go higher. And 2000 pieces for a "flagship" model seemed strange to me. But you are right, when I think about it. The 42146 also has "only" 2900 pieces :-)

[dhc6twinotter]

I’d love to see a proper flagship RC backhoe.  It could be done with 6 or 7 motors and a gearbox.  Playability would be fine if the gearbox were designed properly.  For example:

If 7 motors are used:
Gearbox position 1:  boom rotate, boom up/down, stick up/down, bucket curl

Gearbox position 2:  loader bucket up/down, loader bucket curl, left stabilizer, right stabilizer. 

4 motors for gearbox, plus a drive motor, steering motor, and gearbox selector motor.  7 motors total.

It could also be done with 6 motors and a 3 position gearbox, if the wheels were driven through the gearbox (which I’m not a fan of).

If TLG built such a flagship set, it’s probably one of the few sets I’d be willing to pay $500+ for.   That or a proper RC tow truck.

 

[Lego Tom]

1 hour ago, dhc6twinotter said:

I’d love to see a proper flagship RC backhoe.  It could be done with 6 or 7 motors and a gearbox.  Playability would be fine if the gearbox were designed properly.  For example:

If 7 motors are used:
Gearbox position 1:  boom rotate, boom up/down, stick up/down, bucket curl

Gearbox position 2:  loader bucket up/down, loader bucket curl, left stabilizer, right stabilizer. 

4 motors for gearbox, plus a drive motor, steering motor, and gearbox selector motor.  7 motors total.

It could also be done with 6 motors and a 3 position gearbox, if the wheels were driven through the gearbox (which I’m not a fan of).

If TLG built such a flagship set, it’s probably one of the few sets I’d be willing to pay $500+ for.   That or a proper RC tow truck.

 

Given last year's crane, price would probably be closer to $800 unless maybe it was a generic, in which case the price might only be $795.

[Jundis]

3 hours ago, Lego Tom said:

Given last year's crane, price would probably be closer to $800 unless maybe it was a generic, in which case the price might only be $795.

In my opinion, the Liebherr was

a) a test, what Lego buyers want to spend
b) expensive due to the long development time

or a combination of both.

4 hours ago, dhc6twinotter said:

I’d love to see a proper flagship RC backhoe.  It could be done with 6 or 7 motors and a gearbox.  Playability would be fine if the gearbox were designed properly.  For example:

If 7 motors are used:
Gearbox position 1:  boom rotate, boom up/down, stick up/down, bucket curl

Gearbox position 2:  loader bucket up/down, loader bucket curl, left stabilizer, right stabilizer. 

4 motors for gearbox, plus a drive motor, steering motor, and gearbox selector motor.  7 motors total.

It could also be done with 6 motors and a 3 position gearbox, if the wheels were driven through the gearbox (which I’m not a fan of).

Hmm could 7 motors and 2 battery boxes are fitted inside? Even with 107 tires, I highly would doubt this....

Edited January 18 by Jundis

[Ngoc Nguyen]

I'm just gonna say flat out that it's not possible to do a C+ Backhoe with 107 tires and all functions properly motorized.

It is possible if TLG introduces a bigger class of rims and tires, like 120 tires or those of the 1:5 motorcycles. And given TLG's fixation on making putting C+ into the flagship model and making things bigger and more expensive, it's not totally unimaginable if TLG would actually do that.

 

[Lego Tom]

1 hour ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

I'm just gonna say flat out that it's not possible to do a C+ Backhoe with 107 tires and all functions properly motorized.

It is possible if TLG introduces a bigger class of rims and tires, like 120 tires or those of the 1:5 motorcycles. And given TLG's fixation on making putting C+ into the flagship model and making things bigger and more expensive, it's not totally unimaginable if TLG would actually do that.

 

Tires? Who needs tires?

[howitzer]

1 hour ago, Jundis said:

In my opinion, the Liebherr was

a) a test, what Lego buyers want to spend
b) due to the long development time

or a combination of both.

Relative to weight, Liebherr wasn't that expensive. The huge number of large pieces drove the price up a lot. It was probably also some sort of test case of how much people are willing to spend (regardless of contents) and I feel the set has sold quite well, though of course I have no numbers to back up this feeling.

[1gor]

On 1/17/2024 at 8:51 AM, Jundis said:

As the missing numbers are 42165 and 42172 to 42177, here is my speculation (or rather wishlist) for 7 technic models for Summer 2024:

- Cargo Aircraft with lifting nose                               800 pieces    80€
- Flatbed Truck with rear crane (49.5 tires)           1200 pieces    119€
- RC Liebherr T274 Dump Truck (81.5 tires)        1200 pieces    159€
- RC Claas Tractor (81 and 107 tires) and trailer  2000 pieces    249€
- 3 Axle Mobile Crane (81.5 tires)                         2500 pieces    259€
- JCB Pneumatic Backhoe (107 tractor tires)       3500 pieces    349€
- McLaren 750S Spider Supercar                         3800 pieces    449€

I'm affraid that CLAAS license is gone for good; or to say to CADA...

1 hour ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

.

It is possible if TLG introduces a bigger class of rims and tires, like 120 tires or those of the 1:5 motorcycles.

 

I would certainly welcome 120mm tractor tires (with appropriate yellow rims)

[1gor]

Don't get me wrong, but from TLC point of view if they decide to make licensed backhoe; there is Catepillar who makes backhoe loaders...(despite that I prefer JCB)

[dhc6twinotter]

23 hours ago, Jundis said:

Hmm could 7 motors and 2 battery boxes are fitted inside? Even with 107 tires, I highly would doubt this....

I’ve briefly tried a few configurations, and it is very tight with the 107 tires, especially with AWD, pendular front axle, and fake engine.   

I think the best spot for the battery boxes would be down low, between the axles.  This gets weight towards the front, and makes battery access easier.   The downside is the wheelbase is maybe 1 or 2 studs too long (compare to a 3CX anyway), but maybe that is acceptable.  

Motor placement would be a bigger challenge.  If a fake engine isn’t needed, then at least two motors could be placed under the hood.  Otherwise, it would be difficult, especially with any sort of structural rigidity.  The new, larger frames may help here though.

If TLG were to do it, I think it would be better to either make a larger PU hub with eight outputs, or offer a larger version of the Claas tires (like the 120 mentioned).

This thread makes me want to have another crack at a PU JCB backhoe…