Thundercats Art Director Thinks Chima Is A Ripoff

[Graysmith]

I remember reading a comment on Brickset some months ago that suggested Chima was inspired (to some degree) by some MOCs that Mark Stafford (and others) had done a few years ago, which featured Fabuland minifigures and animal mechs. Here's a mech shaped like a monkey, and here's another shaped like a dog.

Whether that's true or not, I leave up to Stafford to say.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Graysmith

[Toth]

Graysmith: As Mr Stafford worked on many of the Chima vehicles, then he was Inspired by himself...

he will probably have a good laugh! ;) :D

[Peppermint_M]

those toys made by Papo got more similarities with Chima than Thundercats got.

Snipped etc....

I love those figures so very much. I really hope that there are more tribes added, I would love Tiger people!

[Faefrost]

You got that right.

As to similarities, I was also reminded of one of my favorite cartoons, Silverhawks. That was more about the vehicles, though. As to the He-Man and Thundercats similarities, I always thought they came out of the same animation studio house (look at the original art). I may want to look that up. I actually have original VHS episodes of Silverhawks and Thundercats. I had no interest in the remake of Thundercats, as I saw some of the new designs in a line of toys and was dissatisfied with the look. There may have even been a building toy set.

I like the look of some of these sets, and others I can see uses for the parts. The story and games I have no interest in. I might MOC some original Thundercats and Silverhawks one day, just for fun.

The original Thundercats and Silverhawks were made by the same company and the same production team, at almost the same time. So yeah there are legitimately clear similarities between them. Filmation, the people who made HeMan had an equally similar show called Bravestar, about a SciFi Native American sheriff and his cyborg horse partner.

And really none of this was very original to begin with. Heck Silverhawks was a rather direct "borrowing" of the central idea behind the classic anime Gatchaman ("Battle of the Planets" or "G Force" for some audiences.)

Edited January 7, 2013 by Faefrost

[Faefrost]

P.S., for those buying into the whole 'Chima ripped off Thundercats" meme. Just something to think on. The basic story of Lion people fighting and at odds with lizard/croc people and winged eagle people, etc etc, on a far off world with deep jungles and flying mountains and such was one that was visualy explored in the 1930's and for decades beyond. We know the place as The Planet Mongo. Famous inhabitants, Ming the Merciless and Flash Gordon. Pretty much every visual element that Norton complains about can also be found in Alex Raymonds color Sunday strips dating back to 1934.

Just to keep things in perspective.

(PS oh and that "Holding the sword above the head in artwork thing? Ummm While that goes back to at a minimum Frazetta's work and the Conan the Barbarian movie posters, it also featured prominantly in many many Saturday morning cartoons of the 70's that well predate the original Thundercats. "Thundar the Barbarian" ring a bell with anyone?)

[lightningtiger]

I was wondering when the name Flash Gordon would come up......Ming kept the three tribes on his planet warring with each other to control/rule them, then Flash comes along and unites the forest people, sky and lion creatures to fight Ming's armies.

In fantasy/sci-fi, stories and ideas get reborn all the time.....where do you there Lucas got his ideas from !

Oh, yeah that sword holding thing.....remember the original Star Wars posters from 1977 with Luke holding the lightsaber in the air in a similar pose ?

[gedren_y]

The original Thundercats and Silverhawks were made by the same company and the same production team, at almost the same time. So yeah there are legitimately clear similarities between them.

The similarities of Thundercats and Silverhawks extended to the end of show lesson scenes. Now I'm wanting to watch my old VHS tapes.

(PS oh and that "Holding the sword above the head in artwork thing? Ummm While that goes back to at a minimum Frazetta's work and the Conan the Barbarian movie posters, it also featured prominantly in many many Saturday morning cartoons of the 70's that well predate the original Thundercats. "Thundar the Barbarian" ring a bell with anyone?)

I'm sure that there is some centuries old painting of a warrior with a sword held in that position.

Actually, in the original Thundercats, Lion-O would line the hilt with his eyes, the small blade would transform into a sword during some slashing moves, and then he would go into the sword above head pose. The dimensions of the minifigs would make that move impossible during play.

Edited January 7, 2013 by gedren_y

[badboytje88]

Who is he kidding? It is quite obvious LEGO koppied the ancient Egyptians with the anthropomorphic animale and stuff :P

[Suspsy]

Snipped etc....

I love those figures so very much. I really hope that there are more tribes added, I would love Tiger people!

There are Tiger people. And Gorilla and Rhino people for that matter. Go to Papo's website and check their catalog.

[DraikNova]

Who is he kidding? It is quite obvious LEGO copied the ancient Egyptians with the anthropomorphic animals and stuff :P

Now that's a fact!

[Rez]

Haha, if they can squeeze Dino by without a Jurassic Park label I don't think they need to worry about this one bit!

[Lance]

To be honest I don't think Norton's rant is going to get him very far.

Chima and Thundercats are nothing alike, it's just someone trying to ride off Lego's success again. It's happened before and it eventually blows over.

As for the Facebook comment being removed, I think Lego posibley saw the comment and asked Norton to remove it. After all WB are on board with Chima, so there's obviously no issue.

[lightningtiger]

As for the Facebook comment being removed, I think Lego posibley saw the comment and asked Norton to remove it. After all WB are on board with Chima, so there's obviously no issue.

Perhaps not Lego, but someone else told him to remove it eh ? (clue - CN)

[Vindicare]

To be honest I don't think Norton's rant is going to get him very far.

Chima and Thundercats are nothing alike, it's just someone trying to ride off Lego's success again. It's happened before and it eventually blows over.

As for the Facebook comment being removed, I think Lego posibley saw the comment and asked Norton to remove it. After all WB are on board with Chima, so there's obviously no issue.

I wouldn't say they're nothing alike... There's definitely similarities.

[Suspsy]

<snip>

Thank you for what can only be described as a complete and utter smackdown. I tip my hat to you, Faefrost!

[vynsane]

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. He could have negotiated with LEGO to get a job on the show instead of spouting off half-cocked and ruining any chance of ever working with them.

Anyway, anyone else having a good laugh at the irony here? The new Thundercats is a direct remake. So, the complaint is that LEGO stole the concept of a show he "rightfully" copied. Yes, I'm sure there was a lot of creativity used in the remake, I'm not disparaging the work that went into it. That said, I could get behind it more if it were a completely original idea that was then conspicuously similar in Chima. But boiling it down to "they stole the thing I copied" reveals the ridiculousness nicely.

LEGO isn't new to the license game at this point. If this Dan Norton guy really did pitch the theme to TLG, there was a team of lawyers on hand and Non-Disclosure Agreements and Non-Competition Clauses would have flowed like wine. TLG's butts are covered with a couple of inches of legal kevlar, so nothing is going to come out of this but sour grapes.

[Yatkuu]

Interesting debate!

I don't really have an opinion on this myself, but I'll just share some food for thought!

[francismatteo]

My opinion is, CHIMA is more like Kung Fu Panda (Animals acting like humans) than Thunderkats (Humans with animalistic features ).

[moop]

Meh, similar but no skin off my back. The New TC ip is dead anyways

[Omega 8]

Norton was a work for hire lead designer commissioned to put an updated spin on somebody else's designs. This is not his original IP. He is not the licencor nor is he the agent of the licencor. WB is the IP holder, and WB has a longstanding relationship with TLG. The two sides may have done some preliminary work towards making a Thundercats Lego line. For whatever reason the deal did not go through. My guess is asking price vs applicable ratings meant one of both sides did not see a clear path to profitability. (They may take a different view today after the rampant hit of TMNT line. But before that some caution over the ressurection of a slightly more obscure 80's cartoon property may not have seemed worth the cost after analysis.)

Now as part of these discussions and preliminary development Lego most likely did some design work. They experimented with molds and designs to see if they could Legoify the Thundercats. Once the deal fell through any of this design work is theirs to do with as they please, they can recycle it or redevelop those designs into new themes and new ideas, just so long as they are not using actual Thundercats IP. This is part of the two edged sword with licensing. If you are not confident enough in your show or IP's success in driving a licensed product you must be careful. Because any of the new original actual design materials developed by the licensee remain their property. If you screw this up you can turn someone seeking to license your property into your biggest competitor. (As others have noted Games Workshop seems particularly adept at this particular trick. Their turning down a licensor late in development in a fit of some sort of pique resulted in that licensor recycling the development into what later became one of the most successful video games of all time, and a literal money factory. And when GW complained about it they were laughed out of court.)

And no this is NOT stealing Mr. Norton's ideas or designs. This is a well known part of the process. Who owns what and who walks away with what is or at least should be well known to a "Lead Designer". Especially one who is doing design work for someone else's IP in the first place. Norton is bitter because his employer had him provide some of his T Cats design work to Lego in order for them to develop the initial Thundercats concept. Once that deal fell through The materials developed became the property of Lego, and they most likely recycled some of their design elements into Chima. The provided designs were never in fact the property of Mr. Norton to begin with. Once again, he is not the rights holder on Thundercats so anything he would have done would have been work for hire. Any challenge over what design elements did or did not use for Chima is WB's to make. WB is the rights holder on Thundercats. They are also the owners of Cartoon Network. As such they stand to be getting a decent chunk of Chima related income. Probably more so then they calculated they would get back from the anime version of Thundercats.

Mr. Norton provided design work into the projects, for which he was paid by his employer. His employer than owned the designs. His employer used those designs to do some preliminary work with one of their licensee's, Lego. Lego then paid to develop the requested designs within their licensed and identifiable format (ie minifigs, etc). These designs are not identical to Mr. Nortons. When one or both sides decided not to proceed with this license, then both sides went home with the design work that they each paid for, which they could re-incorporate into other projects as they saw fit. Just so long as none of the clearly licensed materials were used. This is common practice between businesses. Nortons rantings on the Internet however are not normal practices. They are grossly un professional and way out of line. I would not be surprised if he didn't get a less than polite call from WB's lawyers telling him now would be a good time to shut the pluck up.

Thanks for taking the time to explain the full details, I had neither the time nor inclination to do so.

My respect for Dan's work caused me to be interested in the story, but don't mistake that for "sour grapes". As I said in my previous post, there are no "new ideas" everything we see today is an ape or amalgamation of some previous property. Anthropomorphic animals, mystic barbarians, Galactic Marines, Dinosaur Hunters, Super Robots, Teenage super powered heroes...... All been done before and will be done again.

I do, however, believe Mr. Norton has a right to vent a little. If any of us had worked hard on some presentation/pitch in our professions and had it shelved/trashed only to see obvious portions of it used later, we would be a t least a little miffed.

Thankfully, it seems Dan has moved on (even if it was WB telling him to I'm a moron) and we're all able to move on as well and enjoy a pretty damned cool LEGO line.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Omega 8

[Legoboy1999]

When I saw Chima I thought "hey Egyptian gods" way before i thought "hey thundercats"