Are classic themes dead ?

[Alexandrina]

On 4/30/2023 at 11:23 PM, Powder Monkey said:

Does Lego just have to launch a Lego Pirate Series on Netflix with a really cool storyline

I found this line interesting because it got me thinking of all sorts of possibilities, and I think that while something like that has potential, it also has potential to backfire and result in a theme neither kids nor adults really want. Now, I've never really watched any of Lego's tie-in cartoons (partly due to me having aged out of the target audience before they existed, and also not having a TV package that receives them) but from what I've seen they seem to have a younger core cast. Which I'm not knocking them for and I totally get, kids relate better to characters their age or a little older. The problem is that this doesn't translate well to the genres of the "classic" themes. Pirates is the obvious one - there's room for a few younger characters, bo'suns and Governors' daughters and things, but the archetypal pirate story mainly features men (and sometimes women) who are that much older, grizzled, plundering and fighting soldiers. The core cast of the Pirate genre doesn't match the core cast of a Lego show. The circle can be squared, but necessarily involves stepping away from some genre conventions. Combine this with the fact that most sets aimed at kids aren't especially complex builds or display pieces, and I feel like you'd end up with a lot of sets that don't appeal to the AFOLs, who would buy the higher-end sets that look like display pieces and maybe a few smaller ones for army-building, but are also likely to leave sets on the shelf. This is fine if the kids are buying those sets; if you have a theme that both kids and adults are buying, you have a good variety of sets that appeals to everyone. But if the kids don't take to the series, it's a lot of extra investment for not much pay-off (and let's be real, the type of AFOL who is going to buy smaller sets for army-building is probably the same type of AFOL who will have 150 bluecoats within a month of the parts from the upcoming Eldorado Fortress remake hitting B&P).

The same applies to a lesser extent with Castle and Space (though I think Space fans would bite your hand off for a few sets with interesting pieces and windscreens in colours other than trans-clear and trans-light blue at this point!) and certainly if you branch off beyond the core three to things like Western.

[MAB]

Any storyline works in just about any setting. Whether you believe there are stories all follow the same seven basic plot lines, or that there are 3, 6 or 20 of them, any basic story plot line could work in any theme. Whether a cartoon works is really down to do viewers buy in to the characters and the surroundings. They could have done Ninjago using the past plots as Classic Space or Pirates or Castle. The stories would have been the same. The clothes, locations and transport would have been different in each case. The great thing about Ninjago is that it is free from any external forces so that it could contain historical style Asian building, but modern and high tech vehicles. It has had steampunk style flying vehicles, but also classical ships. Ancient buildings but also modern ones. This diversity cannot really exist in the Classic LEGO themes. They tried putting high tech transportation devices and technology into Castle and we got Nexo Knights, hated by Classic Castle fans (and Space fans). There are such rigid constraints around the Classic Themes that even though they could tell the same stories with different characters, they cannot be used to explore a wide range of settings (locations, transportation) within a single theme. Sure they can do a one and done type theme, but LEGO seems to want to go towards continual themes rather than having to redevelop stories and characters and advertising every year.

[LegendaryArticuno]

I need to resell my Forestman Hideout GWP so I'm hoping classic castle continues to thrive LOL.

[MAB]

2 hours ago, LegendaryArticuno said:

I need to resell my Forestman Hideout GWP so I'm hoping classic castle continues to thrive LOL.

They are selling OK at the moment. I've sold two in the past month or so at £32 plus postage each. Asking much more than that will probably mean a very slow sale.

[LegendaryArticuno]

10 minutes ago, MAB said:

They are selling OK at the moment. I've sold two in the past month or so at £32 plus postage each. Asking much more than that will probably mean a very slow sale.

Sounds similar to the aftermarket here in Canada as well, usually see Forestman HO listed for CAD$40-60 which is around that ballpark of 32 pounds.

[Powder Monkey]

@Alexandrina & @MAB thanks for your great thoughts on this :) I have to say though I just joined recently, I really enjoy how factual and constructive people communicate here on EB

Alexandrina's post made me think of another topic: Has Lego ever tried to establish a "classic" theme (or a theme they created) for all ages (besides Town/City and AGAIN: Ninjago)? - I mean like some 4+, some 6+, some 12+ and some 18+ sets e.g. - but all within one theme. Some sets for the little ones with just a few parts and minifigs, some moderate ones and some really sophisticated sets for adults. Promote it like "fun for the whole family" or "bringing the whole family together". Would that be worth a try you think?
Cause it seems to work with non-ip themes (Star Wars!!) and also City/Ninjago.
I myself would buy like a madman, because I know my kids are getting sets from themes I love (and thus I would play enthusiastically with them) PLUS I know it all ads up to the collection.  

[Agent Kallus]

They aren't fully dead nor totally alive I'd say. 

[TeriXeri]

On 5/7/2023 at 4:03 PM, Agent Kallus said:

They aren't fully dead nor totally alive I'd say. 

This , there are fragments of classic themes scattered across sets nowadays, like references to Vikings in an upcoming City diving set, Dreamzzz has characters with Pirate hat, Knight helmets or even classic space helmet/airtanks, and both the heroes and villains use an assortment of Castle/Space/Pirate type weapons, and the builds are a mix of many things.

Also the Classic theme itself , 11033: Creative Fantasy Universe definately has some Castle tower parts, and swords/spears/magic wand, while not directly a minifig theme, it loosely references Castle and Pirates via brick-built models, even moreso then 11022: Space Mission had UFO, ray guns and astronauts, and some space grille prints / computer slopes.

 

And then if that Eldorado Fortress and Viking Village set release probably this year, there will at least be some bigger "classic" sets to be found for each theme, with Galaxy Explorer, Lion Knights.

Ideas still has the Blacksmith set as well.

And then the 3-in-1 Pirate/Castle/Viking sets are still around.

None of it are full themes with many sets (so not really alive in the old sense), but I wouldn't call it entirely dead either.

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by TeriXeri

[Silverhurst]

I guess my opinion on this subject would probably fit better into the unpopular opinions thread, but personally I'm glad most of the classic themes are dead or are only being trickled out. I have been around Lego since long before any of the "Classic" series existed, and I have purchased Lego on and off throughout those years up to and including now. I own Fort Legorado, and personally other than the minifigs and printed pieces, it was pretty boring. I own several of the early castles, and various Knight's Kingdom 1 & 2 sets. Love the KK sets, the early castles are sitting in mixed bins somewhere. Again, it was just the specialty pieces that I've used elsewhere. Classic space barely appealed to me, and space has been a huge part of my RL, I just found it too blah and boring. But the later Mars sets and the last few rounds of City Space have been great. Actually far better than any of the Classic Space sets, in my opinion.

I think that the only older (pre-color change) sets that came with minifigures that I tend to keep together were the old Adventurers sets and my yellow head Star Wars sets. The Egypt sets especially hold up pretty well to current offerings. Oh, and the Studio monster sets, those are great for bringing out for Halloween decorating.

Would I love to have a rebop of my original Train Ferry set? Nope. Nostalgic to me, and sits displayed on a shelf, but honestly compared to newer sets from just about any series made it is severely lacking. And I rarely touch my other old original parts, like garages or old style windows or tires or trees/bushes, or even 70's vehicle sets or Shell station, etc.

Nostalgia is great, but if you look through your rose colored glasses too much you miss what is right in front of you. We have some of the best sets ever offered available right now, and minus some specific parts that are no longer being made (lion head brick is one I wish had been produced in more colors, for example) you can build just about anything you want from the past, and make it better if you want.

I think the biggest problem today is that there are just too many great sets, and it is impossible to keep up with just the ones you can afford, little alone all of them that you really want. That can actually lead to burn out. Luckily for me I've never burned out for too long.

[MAB]

9 hours ago, Silverhurst said:

Would I love to have a rebop of my original Train Ferry set? Nope. Nostalgic to me, and sits displayed on a shelf, but honestly compared to newer sets from just about any series made it is severely lacking. And I rarely touch my other old original parts, like garages or old style windows or tires or trees/bushes, or even 70's vehicle sets or Shell station, etc.

I'm very similar.

My childhood (70s and a bit of the 80s) was also before most of the "Classic" themes. I was used to playing with LEGO alongside other toys. Lego was used to build engine sheds for Hornby trains, spectator stands for scalextric and subbuteo, Kenner SW figures went in bad renditions of SW ships built in red and blue, Homemaker maxifigures were fun to build with really long arms or 1m tall. Of all my old stuff, I have only a few sets on display. I have 112-2 (locomotive, but also with an additional blue tender, 612-1 tipper truck and 337-2 truck with crane along with half a dozen of the old LEGOLAND fixed limb minifigures and a house MOC with lots of old windows and other long retired parts. They rarely get touched, but act as a display to show just how far LEGO has come in terms of set designs. I find vintage sets quite boring to build compared to modern. For the time they were pretty decent but I don't think kids of today would ever pick one of them if they had a choice between vintage and new.

I didn't have a lot of the Castle, Space and Pirates stuff as I was too old at the time but have picked up lots of it over the past two decades. I sell on most of it due to its value and buy modern parts. I enjoy Castle the most out of the three, but prefer MOCs with modern parts to the original old sets. I did keep a lot of the minifigures although now tend to sell on those too due to their value and replace with the modern versions where I can. I keep factions not yet redone but if they repeat, for example, the Wolfpack torso then I'll think nothing of getting rid of the old.

 

[Alexandrina]

11 hours ago, Silverhurst said:

I own Fort Legorado, and personally other than the minifigs and printed pieces, it was pretty boring.

The thing is, people calling for a return of classic themes are rarely calling for the exact sets to be re-released as is. Fort Legoredo is thirty years old, so of course the building techniques are going to be more primitive than they are today. You say yourself that you like Knights Kingdom and the latter-day City Space sets - these are classic themes. When you say classic themes are boring aside from the minifigures, you're judging it from old builds, but is it fair to say that City is boring because some set from the 80s had a boring build?

Look at stuff like Barracuda Bay or the Lion Knights' Castle. Obviously they're large sets but they're a far fairer comparison for the quality of the builds than sets from an era when Lego's design philosophy was entirely different.

[Silverhurst]

8 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

The thing is, people calling for a return of classic themes are rarely calling for the exact sets to be re-released as is. Fort Legoredo is thirty years old, so of course the building techniques are going to be more primitive than they are today. You say yourself that you like Knights Kingdom and the latter-day City Space sets - these are classic themes. When you say classic themes are boring aside from the minifigures, you're judging it from old builds, but is it fair to say that City is boring because some set from the 80s had a boring build?

Look at stuff like Barracuda Bay or the Lion Knights' Castle. Obviously they're large sets but they're a far fairer comparison for the quality of the builds than sets from an era when Lego's design philosophy was entirely different.

Oh, I agree to a point. And a few updated Western, Adventurers, Rock Raiders etc. themed sets here and there would be great, and that is basically what Lego has been giving us the last couple of years in a couple of themes. There has been a lot of love for the base classics in my opinion, but what I read and hear from many AFOL's is that the trickle of classic sets isn't enough, and they want the actual old themes brought back. Castle and pirates have both been getting a lot of love. Classic space got the movie sets and anniversary sets. I do know that a lot of Classic Space fans don't consider the modern sets to be a substitute, even if they incorporate modified space logos on the suits or flags. They don't want the greys and whites, they want the blue/grey/trans yellow, or maybe Blacktron or whatever they find nostalgic.

To me alternative series sets are just fine. Lone Ranger instead of Western was one example. Maybe there will be a new western tie in someday. Maybe parts from Indiana Jones can substitute for Adventurers. I don't know.

And maybe Lego would just get smart and release some classic series battlepacks, bringing back new versions of classic minifigs from old series with a small build (maybe loaded with printed or special parts that would help those who love those themes). Cheap, easy, and affordable. That was one thing that helped make KK and some other themes great. Small builds with a couple of minifigs. Those were also great as gifts for the kids.

[MAB]

1 hour ago, Silverhurst said:

Castle and pirates have both been getting a lot of love. Classic space got the movie sets and anniversary sets.

Maybe a little love,  but not a lot.

[Khargeust]

After the recent release of 21322, 40567, 10305, 10497 and 40580, 10320 Eldorado Fortress will soon complete the classics remade line. 

Do you think LEGO will continue this momentum and continue to recreate classic sets?

What next remake do you think we can seriously see produced?

If LEGO continue this trend, I think we could have in the next years a medieval market (especially with the leak from the survey) and a big imperial flagship, also an Adventurers set. For space theme, I'm more dubitative but I love to see a remake of the Mega Core Magnetizer and a monorail. 

[Alexandrina]

42 minutes ago, Khargeust said:

What next remake do you think we can seriously see produced?

Potentially (and potentially is doing a lot of heavy lifting here) we could see a remade Fort Legoredo in the near future - cavalry versus bandits is relatively unproblematic and has been done as recently as a decade ago in the Lone Ranger sets, and Fort Legoredo is one of the last few truly iconic classic sets that could be remade without the need for new colours/parts (something like a monorail would need a whole new part-set, Ice Planet would need trans-neon orange to come back, etc.), without feeling similar to a recent set (we're not gonna see Guarded Inn or Black Monarch's Castle or Imperial Trading Post while the current sets are on the market) and without being too small (something like Breezeaway Café can't exactly be expanded to 2000 pieces)

I'd love an Adventurers set too, but I doubt that'll come until the Indiana Jones sets are off the shelves.

[MAB]

1 hour ago, Khargeust said:

For space theme, I'm more dubitative but I love to see a remake of the Mega Core Magnetizer and a monorail. 

I cannot see them redoing a monorail giving the production costs of monorail parts. 

[TeriXeri]

While Ideas and Icons sets are probably the most seen and noted "18+" AFOL classic sets, especially now, the 3-in-1 should not be underestimated.

I know they are not meant to be on the same level as Icons (different age group, different target group, different budgets (especially on special sails, prints or animals etc) but the fact the sets already lasted much longer compared to the usual 3-in-1 must mean they are popular enough to sell, even after price increases.

2020 : 31109 Pirate Ship launched in June 2020, and currently is not on any retirement lists, so possibly will be sold in 2024 still, making it quite an impressive long lifespan , currently 3 years, possibly 4.5.

2021: 31120: Medieval Castle , still quite an amazing build, but shows  a Castle set would be better off with animals like horses, and more figures, also probably still be around in 2024.

2022: 31132: Viking Ship and the Midgard Serpent is more niche and is actually listed as retiring , but it did show quite an improvement on the figures.

 

2023 has a space themed 3-in-1 rollercoaster but just like Pirate Rollercoaster, it's not something I'd consider the same category as the Pirate, Castle or Viking ships.

 

It does look like a lot of Space related sets are retiring after 2023 however, so maybe that'll open up more room.

• City Space Subtheme (Moon related) + Space Mission (Mars related)
• Monkie Kid Galactic Explorer / Moon Cake factory (Space related Monkie Kid sets, a lot more fantasy/sci-fi compared to City Space)
• 3-in-1 Cyber Drone (had a spyrius droid type of printed head)
• Friends 41713: Olivia's Space Academy

It's quite a surprise 10497: Galaxy Explorer already makes it onto possible retirement lists however, but on the other hand, maybe that will mean another Icons Space set is a possibility.

 

As for other big sets possibly retiring, 21325: Medieval Blacksmith is also on there to possibly retire at end of this year.

(and no I don't consider 21341: Disney Hocus Pocus: The Sanderson Sisters' Cottage as a replacement, it might be a medieval looking house, it's just happens to be the timing of that Idea being selected, the movie being 30 years old in 2023 and Disney 100, and not so much anything to do with 21325 . However, might still appeal to medieval builders)

Edited June 21, 2023 by TeriXeri

[Lion King]

What about Western-themed set that would be remade follwoing Galaxy Explorer, Lion Kngiths.’ Castle and Eldorado? 

Personally I wish to see Adventurerers set would be made but not in a few years from now.

[Alexandrina]

1 hour ago, Lion King said:

What about Western-themed set that would be remade follwoing Galaxy Explorer, Lion Kngiths.’ Castle and Eldorado? 

Personally I wish to see Adventurerers set would be made but not in a few years from now.

If any Western set gets a remake it'll be Fort Legoredo. They're unlikely imo to go near Rapid River Village, and Gold City Junction is just less iconic than Legoredo.

Adventurers could be anything but most likely Pharaoh's Forbidden Ruins - but not until Indiana Jones has gone, as it's very similar to the current sets but minus the Indy characters.

Outside of these themes, we might see Aquazone or Rock Raiders remakes if we're very lucky but I'd be surprised if anything else outwith the classics gets into Icons.

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, Alexandrina said:

If any Western set gets a remake it'll be Fort Legoredo. They're unlikely imo to go near Rapid River Village, and Gold City Junction is just less iconic than Legoredo.

I dunno, Gold City Junction might be less iconic in the context of LEGO history specifically, but from a general pop-culture standpoint I think that western "boom towns", bank/stagecoach robberies, and shootouts between bandits and lawmen are much more iconic Western scenes than American military forts.

It's also worth keeping in mind that there's no strict rule that these "throwback" sets have to be based on one specific set in particular. For example, Lion Knights' Castle was a wholly original design that drew inspiration from all sorts of old-school Castle sets, and Eldorado Fortress pulled subject matter not only from the 1989 version of that set but also from the later Imperial Trading Post.

As such, a Wild West throwback set could potentially combine elements from multiple sets, like the bank and general store from Gold City Junction, the jail and sheriff's office from Sheriff's Lock-Up , and perhaps even entirely new "Old West" buildings.

1 hour ago, Alexandrina said:

Outside of these themes, we might see Aquazone or Rock Raiders remakes if we're very lucky but I'd be surprised if anything else outwith the classics gets into Icons.

For big exclusive Icons sets, that may be true, but LEGO has shown that they're willing to make smaller throwbacks to other iconic themes like Bionicle as gifts with purchase. And there are definitely some iconic sets even outside the "classic" themes (such as Granite Grinder) which are likely small enough and require few enough unique graphics to be re-imagined as GWP sets like that.

[Doddsino]

They've been mostly dead after 1997...

That's the last year of classic Pirates and Wild West. You also started seeing drastic changes with Space and Castle. Aquazone was also slightly changed.

In 1998, Space was the Insectroids which felt very far removed from other themes. Castle had Ninjas, which while somewhat cool, didn't really fit together. Biggest change for me was them changing the standard designs on the Minifigure heads.

After that, they would put out a theme for a couple years, then swap it for something else. While Town, Space and Castle have all continued on, the latter two don't really seem like a continuation. 

[Alexandrina]

4 hours ago, Doddsino said:

After that, they would put out a theme for a couple years, then swap it for something else. While Town, Space and Castle have all continued on, the latter two don't really seem like a continuation.

I'm not sure this is a consistent argument. Space and Castle have always gone through subthemes, and while it's definitely fair to argue that both are dead now, they both continued beyond 1998. Insectoids is similar to UFO, and Space subthemes lasting one or two years was a thing pretty much from the moment they moved past Futuron. Castle much the same - throughout the 90s, new subthemes pop up every year or two. The only difference between, say, Fright Knights and Knights Kingdom I is the complete absence of standard smileys, but even in Fright Knights several of the characters had different expressions underneath the facial hair.

You also metioned Wild West and Aquazone. Both were very short-lived themes (Western especially, which lasted as long as a theme like Atlantis).

There was definitely an issue with the quality of sets declining in the early 2000s, but to my mind it's hard to argue that a theme like Kingdoms is not a continuation of the Castle lineage.

[Doddsino]

4 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

I'm not sure this is a consistent argument. 

I think the key word in my original post was "seem". With Castle as an example, they moved to Ninjas briefly, and I remember when they came back with the Lions Knights in 2000, the little changes that has happened over the last couple years just didn't aesthetically fit for me. Even worse was Space when they had the Rock Raiders, which felt like a mishmash of garbage.

Obviously every product needs to grow and evolve, but each line does feel separate depending how much of an advancement took place. I think most collectors have an idea of what pleases them visually, and any drastic jump from that is going to lead to disinterest. I grew up in the age of Futuron, M-Tron, Ice Planet, etc. I'm not going to display them next to UFO and treat it as the same thing, even if that's what they were going for.

[danth]

2 hours ago, Doddsino said:

I think most collectors have an idea of what pleases them visually, and any drastic jump from that is going to lead to disinterest. I grew up in the age of Futuron, M-Tron, Ice Planet, etc. I'm not going to display them next to UFO and treat it as the same thing, even if that's what they were going for.

Yep, same. I lived through it too. The changes from M-Tron to Ice Planet, to Spyrius, to Unitron, to Exploriens, and to RoboForce felt "right". Like, "these are all Space". Even if I didn't like some of them that much.

However the jump from RoboForce to UFO was jarring. Like, "Whoa, what is this?" Same with Insectoids which was arguably even weirder. I bought RoboForce and Explorien sets at the time but just couldn't bring myself to like UFO or Insectoids.

[Lyichir]

I think a big factor in those mid-to-late 90s changes was the shift from overlapping subthemes (which built in crossover-ish lore to extend the appeal of older subthemes) to the more modern system of having more or less independent subthemes (driven by retailer pressure to cycle product more regularly and emphasize the newest releases).

That said, the shift from those overarching Space and Castle "universes" in favor of more independent themes also made room for themes like Rock Raiders that are iconic in part because of their distinctiveness—unmoored from the shared universe of the earlier systems, themes could establish their own independent settings and lore. So it's a bit of a trade-off.