[Lego IDEAS] Native American Settlements

[Padlix]

Hey there!

My Wife and I now Updated our Ideas Submission, which is now called "Native Amerian Settlements" portraying more than one Settlement to show a broad
representation of Cultures and maybe educate in the process. Our goal is to overshadow more problematic portrayals of the past and bring the Natives back
in a more tastful and respectable fashion. I have actually talked to the Chairwoman of the Association representing Native Americans in my Country and she
deemed the Project wonderful! She even gave some change suggestions to make Details more historically/culturally accurate, which we happily included in this Update!

Right now the Set includes five dwellings with a Total of 2465 Parts and 6 Minifigures
https://ideas.lego.com/projects/db438516-e1b1-49b6-bcd4-d8f6b600e744

Thanks so much for checking it out!

Edited May 12, 2021 by Padlix
Big Update to the Project

[Lego David]

There is no way LEGO would approve this (way too controversial) , but it is still a cool project. You have my support. 

[Padlix]

5 minutes ago, Lego David said:

There is no way LEGO would approve this (way too controversial) , but it is still a cool project. You have my support. 

Well it would be a shame if the Culture wouldn't get a chance to be represented respectfully because it is always deemed "too controverse"
Like I wrote, I actually got in touch with an official Native American Association and like in all topics a few very loud voices sometimes seem to reach the public eye more than the majority of opinions

Thank you for your insights and Support! really means a lot :)

[Jack Sassy]

37 minutes ago, Lego David said:

There is no way LEGO would approve this (way too controversial)

You're right about that one (honestly, that makes sets like 6766 and 6748 seem a bit funny), though it is quite a shame. From one side it could be viewed as 'let your kids reenact white folks slaughtering native villages for their own purposes' or it could be viewed as 'let your kids learn about native traditions and lifestyle'. Still, it's a wild west-themed set, so of course I'll support it.

[Sarophas]

Looking great, really like the brick-built tipis compared to the old cloth ones. I would love a series of native americans, especially if they actually went further than only portraying the typical plain-dwelling tribes and went further as in eastern/northern tribes, fortified cities, etc.

Supported

[Padlix]

11 minutes ago, Jack Sassy said:

You're right about that one (honestly, that makes sets like 6766 and 6748 seem a bit funny), though it is quite a shame. From one side it could be viewed as 'let your kids reenact white folks slaughtering native villages for their own purposes' or it could be viewed as 'let your kids learn about native traditions and lifestyle'. Still, it's a wild west-themed set, so of course I'll support it.

Yeah we intentionally didn't include Minifigures with War Paint or Soldiers with guns since we want to divert from the Hollywood slaughtering Aspect and raise Awareness for the actual Cultures
I mean there are still Native Americans represented in Collectible Minifigures Series and with a License like Lone Ranger it seems to be no Problem for Lego but I understand the concerns
Thanks for the Support :)

5 minutes ago, Sarophas said:

Looking great, really like the brick-built tipis compared to the old cloth ones. I would love a series of native americans, especially if they actually went further than only portraying the typical plain-dwelling tribes and went further as in eastern/northern tribes, fortified cities, etc.

Supported

Thanks for the Support! We have an Update ready including two other Non Plain Tribes (Atlantic Coats and one more Southern Theme) bringing the Build up to about 2500 Pcs with 5 buildings
(Just can't post it yet due to waiting Period for Updates)

[Sarophas]

27 minutes ago, Padlix said:

Thanks for the Support! We have an Update ready including two other Non Plain Tribes (Atlantic Coats and one more Southern Theme) bringing the Build up to about 2500 Pcs with 5 buildings
(Just can't post it yet due to waiting Period for Updates)

Sounds awesome! Also I forgot to mention the totem, great work

Best of luck

[caiman0637]

Great build!

[GermanLad]

Amazing building technics for the huts! supported! (on LEGO IDEAS)

 

[MAB]

20 hours ago, Padlix said:

Hey there!

My Wife wondered why there were no Native Americans represented in Lego at all, besides a few appearances in CMF and Lone Ranger.

There have been loads over the years.  They tend not to be made now due to it being seen as somewhat negative when a large Western corporation run by white people makes money selling toys depicting what they think is the culture of other people. 

[Padlix]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

There have been loads over the years.  They tend not to be made now due to it being seen as somewhat negative when a large Western corporation run by white people makes money selling toys depicting what they think is the culture of other people. 

I think they stopped the Theme with the 1997 Set. it's kinda a double edged sword since Lego releases Chinese New Year Sets, portraying other cultures right and respectfully shouldn't be a Problem. Playmobil on the other Hand (a German Toy Company) is still releasing Native American Playsets that are portraying the Cultures so incredibly wrong it's ridiculous. There has not been an outrage as of today.

@GermanLad @caiman0637 Thanks a ton!

[MAB]

Remember that LEGO has a history here that they do not want to be brought up such as this depiction of what they called Red Indians.

LEGO are making Chinese New Year sets but these are not being done in a cultural appropriation way and they are heavily marketed towards a very large Chinese (or Chinese origin) population as well as worldwide.  However sensitive to other people's feelings they are, they make figures like this and say this is what we think you look like and we are going to make toys of you. And then kids will use you for cowboys vs Indians. 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by MAB

[Padlix]

11 hours ago, MAB said:

Remember that LEGO has a history here that they do not want to be brought up such as this depiction of what they called Red Indians.

LEGO are making Chinese New Year sets but these are not being done in a cultural appropriation way and they are heavily marketed towards a very large Chinese (or Chinese origin) population as well as worldwide.  However sensitive to other people's feelings they are, they make figures like this and say this is what we think you look like and we are going to make toys of you. And then kids will use you for cowboys vs Indians. 

 

 

Well I can only repeat that I actually got in Touch with the Native American Association of my Country and they deemed it okay. It could be a chance to redeem old possibly problematic Portrayals for Toy Companies. I might see the whole Western Theme in shambles if they wouldn't dare to touch on the Native American Subject again because only portraying white Men of early America and leaving out indigenous People would be just as problematic Imo. Cultural appropriation means bending the Culture the way to fit the Narrative you want to portray. We want to suggest a Playset portraying Natives correctly and (in the coming update more diverse with other non Plain Tribes)

Thanks for the Thoughts though

Edited April 19, 2021 by Padlix

[Aanchir]

You've made some lovely builds here, but one aspect I see that might be considered insensitive is the way you have combined elements of several different Native American cultures into one model.

For instance, totem poles were specific to the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest coast, whereas tipis were specific to the indigenous peoples of the American Great Plains and Canadian Prairies, who had more of a nomadic lifestyle. And the indigenous peoples of the American Southwest (where you would find cacti like the one in this project) would typically live in permanent earthen settlements called pueblos.

I feel like a good way to remedy this issue would be to break your project up into multiple vignettes, with each representing a particular Native American culture. This would give your project greater historical and cultural authenticity, and even some educational value which might benefit it greatly in LEGO's review process. After all, several successful Ideas projects in the past (especially ones with strong educational appeal in their own right) have taken the form of separate vignettes like this, including 21110 Research Institute, 21301 Birds, 21312 Women of NASA, and 21320 Dinosaur Fossils.

Having said that, you did a beautiful job with the construction and decoration of the tipis and totem pole in your build, as well as landscaping elements like the cacti and tree. So I feel like this build is off to a good start. The tree, totem pole, and canoe would be very fitting for a Pacific Northwest coastal vignette (with a cedar clan house or longhouse rather than a tipi), while the horses and one of your tipis would be most of what you'd need for an authentic Great Plains vignette (along with some grasslands-inspired landscaping).

I apologize if this post comes across as excessively didactic, but I think these sorts of improvements would greatly improve your project's quality and chances of approval while maintaining the beauty, creative strengths, and historical appeal of the current MOC!

Edited April 19, 2021 by Aanchir

[Padlix]

44 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

You've made some lovely builds here, but one aspect I see that might be considered insensitive is the way you have combined elements of several different Native American cultures into one model.

For instance, totem poles were specific to the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest coast, whereas tipis were specific to the indigenous peoples of the American Great Plains and Canadian Prairies, who had more of a nomadic lifestyle. And the indigenous peoples of the American Southwest (where you would find cacti like the one in this project) would typically live in permanent earthen settlements called pueblos.

I feel like a good way to remedy this issue would be to break your project up into multiple vignettes, with each representing a particular Native American culture. This would give your project greater historical and cultural authenticity, and even some educational value which might benefit it greatly in LEGO's review process. After all, several successful Ideas projects in the past (especially ones with strong educational appeal in their own right) have taken the form of separate vignettes like this, including 21110 Research Institute, 21301 Birds, 21312 Women of NASA, and 21320 Dinosaur Fossils.

Having said that, you did a beautiful job with the construction and decoration of the tipis and totem pole in your build, as well as landscaping elements like the cacti and tree. So I feel like this build is off to a good start. The tree, totem pole, and canoe would be very fitting for a Pacific Northwest coastal vignette (with a cedar clan house or longhouse rather than a tipi), while the horses and one of your tipis would be most of what you'd need for an authentic Great Plains vignette (along with some grasslands-inspired landscaping).

I apologize if this post comes across as excessively didactic, but I think these sorts of improvements would greatly improve your project's quality and chances of approval while maintaining the beauty, creative strengths, and historical appeal of the current MOC!

This made me so happy, honestly. 

You gave such wonderful constructive criticism and actually we already worked up an Update adding a wigwam and a pueblo to represent both Coastal and Residential Aspects of the broad Culture.
(The Plan is also to rename the whole Project to SettlementS as to not getting people to think it portrays one Tribe then)
Sadly the Update can only be posted in about 3 weeks since there is a sort of "cooldown" after Release of the Project / other Updates.
I think it's delightful that you can see the educational Aspect since i firmly believe the Cultures should not be swept under the rug by calling even accurate Portrayals offensive.
I agree adding the Totem Pole in Plains context was a huge Blunder on my Part initially mistaking it with "Mater stakes" which were used by Plain Tribes but were by no means decorated at all.
This is actually a common misconception and raising awareness with sensitive representation is a step in the right direction I think :)
Talking to an Association representing Native Americans and doing further research each day was a really nice experience. I could also imagine, if it was a Set, giving historical and educational
Insights to different Cultures in the Building Instructions for example, that would be really neat.

Thanks again for taking the time, being open minded about the Subject and sharing these thoroughly thought through insights!

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, Padlix said:

This made me so happy, honestly. 

You gave such wonderful constructive criticism and actually we already worked up an Update adding a wigwam and a pueblo to represent both Coastal and Residential Aspects of the broad Culture.
(The Plan is also to rename the whole Project to SettlementS as to not getting people to think it portrays one Tribe then)
Sadly the Update can only be posted in about 3 weeks since there is a sort of "cooldown" after Release of the Project / other Updates.
I think it's delightful that you can see the educational Aspect since i firmly believe the Cultures should not be swept under the rug by calling even accurate Portrayals offensive.
I agree adding the Totem Pole in Plains context was a huge Blunder on my Part initially mistaking it with "Mater stakes" which were used by Plain Tribes but were by no means decorated at all.
This is actually a common misconception and raising awareness with sensitive representation is a step in the right direction I think :)
Talking to an Association representing Native Americans and doing further research each day was a really nice experience. I could also imagine, if it was a Set, giving historical and educational
Insights to different Cultures in the Building Instructions for example, that would be really neat.

Thanks again for taking the time, being open minded about the Subject and sharing these thoroughly thought through insights! 

Glad to hear you have so many improvements already underway! I look forward to seeing those updates once you're allowed to post them. It definitely sounds like the sort of project I'd be happy to support once those issues are resolved, and one that could have a very strong chance of passing review and appeal to a lot of builders.

[natesroom]

On 4/19/2021 at 2:47 PM, Aanchir said:

You've made some lovely builds here, but one aspect I see that might be considered insensitive is the way you have combined elements of several different Native American cultures into one model.

For instance, totem poles were specific to the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest coast, whereas tipis were specific to the indigenous peoples of the American Great Plains and Canadian Prairies, who had more of a nomadic lifestyle. And the indigenous peoples of the American Southwest (where you would find cacti like the one in this project) would typically live in permanent earthen settlements called pueblos.

I feel like a good way to remedy this issue would be to break your project up into multiple vignettes, with each representing a particular Native American culture. This would give your project greater historical and cultural authenticity, and even some educational value which might benefit it greatly in LEGO's review process. After all, several successful Ideas projects in the past (especially ones with strong educational appeal in their own right) have taken the form of separate vignettes like this, including 21110 Research Institute, 21301 Birds, 21312 Women of NASA, and 21320 Dinosaur Fossils.

Having said that, you did a beautiful job with the construction and decoration of the tipis and totem pole in your build, as well as landscaping elements like the cacti and tree. So I feel like this build is off to a good start. The tree, totem pole, and canoe would be very fitting for a Pacific Northwest coastal vignette (with a cedar clan house or longhouse rather than a tipi), while the horses and one of your tipis would be most of what you'd need for an authentic Great Plains vignette (along with some grasslands-inspired landscaping).

I apologize if this post comes across as excessively didactic, but I think these sorts of improvements would greatly improve your project's quality and chances of approval while maintaining the beauty, creative strengths, and historical appeal of the current MOC!

I was just going to post something about people picking this set apart and "this quote" was what i was worried about. People tend to take these things to literally today. Which is why this wonderful set will never get made.

I am not disparaging the poster. His critiques are informative, however this is not the response you'll get on the social media squads. 

Generic Native American set, is what i would call this, unless it was named Pueblo Indian Camp then i might probably agree with criticisms.

Good work and this is the kind of Niche you can fill with the help of the ever freely imaginative toy produced by a company called Lego. You don't need an official set to portray anything you can build and bring appreciation to whatever you want to build.

Edited April 21, 2021 by natesroom

[Aanchir]

18 hours ago, natesroom said:

I was just going to post something about people picking this set apart and "this quote" was what i was worried about. People tend to take these things to literally today. Which is why this wonderful set will never get made.

I am not disparaging the poster. His critiques are informative, however this is not the response you'll get on the social media squads. 

Generic Native American set, is what i would call this, unless it was named Pueblo Indian Camp then i might probably agree with criticisms.

Good work and this is the kind of Niche you can fill with the help of the ever freely imaginative toy produced by a company called Lego. You don't need an official set to portray anything you can build and bring appreciation to whatever you want to build.

Small clarification: I'm a "she", not a "he".

It's true that social media comments can get pretty brutal, but I don't think that should be seen as reason to give up hope for a project like this being viable. After all, there have been plenty of horrible comments about LEGO Ideas sets released in the past, including the Minecraft, Back to the Future, Research Institute, Women of NASA, Dinosaur Fossils, Barracuda Bay, and Medieval Blacksmith sets. But it's the number of people who like and decide to buy a set that determines its viability on shelves, not the number who dislike it or decide not to buy it.

More importantly, the project creator already seems to have pretty good plans for how to improve on the issues I brought up, in ways that will probably also add to the appeal of the project as a whole (adding educational value, expanding the variety of different subject matter it portrays, and authentically honoring the heritage of various Native American cultures. By contrast, naming this project something like "Generic Native American Set" would only end up making it more offensive, in my opinion.

For comparison, consider the Lederhosen Guy, Pretzel Girl, Bagpiper, and Kimono Girl minifigs. As representations of specific regional folk costumes (a man and woman in traditional Bavarian dress, a bagpiper in traditional Scottish highland dress, and a woman in a traditional kimono and oshiroi makeup), they're not bad designs at all, and in fact their level of detail and authenticity shows great respect for the heritage of each culture that they portray.

However, if the same minifigures were named "Generic German Man", "Generic German Woman", "Generic Scottish Man", and "Generic Japanese Woman", they'd be FAR more offensive, since framing them that way would make them seem like out-of-touch stereotypes of how people of those nationalities dress in general.

[natesroom]

Yes you did a good job of Being Informative as opposed to being crass. My hope is that Lego does not create these sets and leave it to individuals to create. There are going to be to many people with objections over unintentional offense and i rather LEGO stay with products that have definitive boundaries. I didnt mean name the set "Generic Native American set" i said if it was named that it would be far less offensive then if they named it Pueblo. If i was naming this set i would name it "Non Historical Amalgam of disparate Native American tribes without preference" that would sell

Edited April 21, 2021 by natesroom

[Padlix]

12 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Small clarification: I'm a "she", not a "he".

It's true that social media comments can get pretty brutal, but I don't think that should be seen as reason to give up hope for a project like this being viable. After all, there have been plenty of horrible comments about LEGO Ideas sets released in the past, including the Minecraft, Back to the Future, Research Institute, Women of NASA, Dinosaur Fossils, Barracuda Bay, and Medieval Blacksmith sets. But it's the number of people who like and decide to buy a set that determines its viability on shelves, not the number who dislike it or decide not to buy it.

More importantly, the project creator already seems to have pretty good plans for how to improve on the issues I brought up, in ways that will probably also add to the appeal of the project as a whole (adding educational value, expanding the variety of different subject matter it portrays, and authentically honoring the heritage of various Native American cultures. By contrast, naming this project something like "Generic Native American Set" would only end up making it more offensive, in my opinion.

For comparison, consider the Lederhosen Guy, Pretzel Girl, Bagpiper, and Kimono Girl minifigs. As representations of specific regional folk costumes (a man and woman in traditional Bavarian dress, a bagpiper in traditional Scottish highland dress, and a woman in a traditional kimono and oshiroi makeup), they're not bad designs at all, and in fact their level of detail and authenticity shows great respect for the heritage of each culture that they portray.

However, if the same minifigures were named "Generic German Man", "Generic German Woman", "Generic Scottish Man", and "Generic Japanese Woman", they'd be FAR more offensive, since framing them that way would make them seem like out-of-touch stereotypes of how people of those nationalities dress in general.

Sadly someone (also from Germany) attacked us in the comments saying we "steal the culture" and other pretty ridiculous Insults (Comment got Deleted by now). In reaction to this the entire Comment Thread got locked wihtout any Statement by the Ideas Team, so basically one loud Person feeling offended on behalf of someone else they probably even have no contact with Sabotaged the entire Project (due to not being Commented on it is sinking on the Trend Frontpage). It's just so ridiculous. We got in contact with a Native American Association, they said it was wonderful, I took a lot of Effort making it more accurate based on their Suggestions, and still one uninformed raging Person can Sabotage it.. It's making me sad honestly. 

Imagine you are German and someone made a German Set which might not be 100% accurate since Germany is also very diverse but you are looking forward to it anyway since you grow tired of only WW2 toys being made but then an Australian Person says it's offensive to Germans and the Project gets cancelled.
 

[Padlix]

11 hours ago, natesroom said:

Yes you did a good job of Being Informative as opposed to being crass. My hope is that Lego does not create these sets and leave it to individuals to create. There are going to be to many people with objections over unintentional offense and i rather LEGO stay with products that have definitive boundaries. I didnt mean name the set "Generic Native American set" i said if it was named that it would be far less offensive then if they named it Pueblo. If i was naming this set i would name it "Non Historical Amalgam of disparate Native American tribes without preference" that would sell

I honestly think it would be far more problematic to only represent Western Cultures in Media and Toys. Right now a lot of Ideas Submissions feature either European Medieval buildings or Asian Temples / Anime Adaptations which of course is fine on its own but Lego should also consider bringing some diversity to the Table imo.

[Seaber]

It's clear you've put a lot of attention into the builds as well as the background research. 

What made you pick skin tones over yellow for the figures? 

[MAB]

2 hours ago, Padlix said:

Sadly someone (also from Germany) attacked us in the comments saying we "steal the culture" and other pretty ridiculous Insults (Comment got Deleted by now). In reaction to this the entire Comment Thread got locked wihtout any Statement by the Ideas Team, so basically one loud Person feeling offended on behalf of someone else they probably even have no contact with Sabotaged the entire Project (due to not being Commented on it is sinking on the Trend Frontpage). It's just so ridiculous. We got in contact with a Native American Association, they said it was wonderful, I took a lot of Effort making it more accurate based on their Suggestions, and still one uninformed raging Person can Sabotage it.. It's making me sad honestly. 

 

This is the problem of sticking something on there, then only thinking about making changes after it is published. Your submission is along the lines of all Natives Americans are the same thing, mixing up the different cultures into one generic view. That is why some people will see it as racist. If LEGO made this it would be a white view of what natives are, taking stereotypes from different cultures, mix it all up and make money off them. 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by MAB

[Padlix]

43 minutes ago, MAB said:

This is the problem of sticking something on there, then only thinking about making changes after it is published. Your submission is along the lines of all Natives Americans are the same thing, mixing up the different cultures into one generic view. That is why some people will see it as racist. If LEGO made this it would be a white view of what natives are, taking stereotypes from different cultures, mix it all up and make money off them. 

 

Well Changes are generally made based on Feedback. It is not mixing Cultures since it depics a Plains Tribe rather accurately. I think it would be worse if no Changes were made after being given honest Feedback, people should be allowed room to improve their Creations and Themselves

[natesroom]

8 hours ago, Padlix said:

Well Changes are generally made based on Feedback. It is not mixing Cultures since it depics a Plains Tribe rather accurately. I think it would be worse if no Changes were made after being given honest Feedback, people should be allowed room to improve their Creations and Themselves

Sorry for calling it... I think it falls perfectly in line with a non controversial set, that random people call controversial over nothing controversial.