Number of Parts used in Technic Sets

[mocbuild101]

4 hours ago, Lucio Switch said:

1. Maybe the B model needs the part that we think it is not necessary in the A-Model
2. Maybe they have a stock of parts that need to be used
3. We don't know the cost per unit of the producing process, maybe is cheaper to produce 2 parts of a type than 1 of another.

1. I have come across this many times, such as a standard pin being replaced with a frictionless version - just because the B-model needed it.
2. I highly doubt that...
3. I think that is probably right, because when the set is being packed, each (different) part needs it's own bin and counter - so the fewer parts that are needed, the less machines that are being used to pack the set.

18 minutes ago, Error404 said:

I personally prefer to use blue 3L as I generally feel they have more friction and makes the connections I make, stronger.

I noticed that too, but I thought it was just me... (or rather my fingers )

[N-4K0]

On a side-note regarding pins:

I don't want to spin this thread off of topic, but I often feel like the same pins have different amount of friction and grip in different colored liftarms. For instance, a black or blue pin that sits well with good friction in a yellow liftarm often feels like it sits more poorly in a DBG or red liftarm and the other way around.

I don't understand it.

[mocbuild101]

Just now, Error404 said:

On a side-note regarding pins:

I don't want to spin this thread off of topic, but I often feel like the same pins have different amount of friction and grip in different colored liftarms. For instance, a black or blue pin that sits well with good friction in a yellow liftarm often feels like it sits more poorly in a DBG or red liftarm and the other way around.

I don't understand it.

It might just be that those colours happen to be more used/new in your collection... because I haven't noticed it myself.

[Erik Leppen]

 

8 hours ago, teflon said:

have you noticed that there is less and less bushes in the models. The bushes were omnipresent but now we only get few tens. Not complaining, just thinking out loud - larger pin count could be related to that. Special pins and axles eliminated a lot of need for bushes.

I think this only happened in the last few years, with the introduction of the new 1L pin joiner, which is basically a bush with a round hole. The disadvantages of the round-holed bush are: it doesn't crack; it takes less force to use; it's easy to slide an axle through many of them during build or disassembly; it looks nicer. The only disadvantage is that it can fall of the axle during the build, but this is usually only a problem while building.

The main use of the bush - keeping axles in place - is needed less and less because of all the axles with stops we have seen the last 10 years or so, and the tendency of Technic to connect short axles with axle joinres instead of using long axles. Older sets used more long axles; ever since studless, most axles are short and axle joiners act as "bushes".

 

[Jeroen Ottens]

5 hours ago, schraubedrin said:

I remember building 42009 and being surprised at the huge number of black 2L pins where blue 3L pins would suffice:

 

Has there been any explanation of this at the time of the model?

The blue pins are just a little bit longer than 3L so they stick out if you would use them. That will hamper the extension of the beam (it might even lock up). The black pins are 2L (or maybe ever so slightly less), so these do not protrude.

[Rudivdk]

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

... The disadvantages of the round-holed bush are: it doesn't crack; it takes ...

 

Guess you meant advantages instead of disadvantages...

But I agree with you, axle joiners and shorter axles make the bushes sort of redundant. I think in general studless needs more structural integrity in all connections compared to studfull, so pins in all sorts are actually needed over axles and bushes. Also bracing the axles with gears on them properly is becoming more and more important, so short axles and axle joiners instead of bushes again...

[1gor]

14 hours ago, Jim said:

TLG doesn't "add parts" to "inflate" the part count. They use what they need to create a decent model for a certain price point.

That is the most logical explanation. Just imagine how unfinished look would CLAAS Xerion have without this part, so some number of parts in mandatory. Remember that Technic represent both functionality and look of real thing.

[schraubedrin]

53 minutes ago, Jeroen Ottens said:

The blue pins are just a little bit longer than 3L

Thanks, that's very interesting information! Where did you get that from?

[1gor]

5 hours ago, mocbuild101 said:

1. I noticed that too, but I thought it was just me... (or rather my fingers )

Consider that black 3L pins were introduced in "studded" Technic era and black 2L pins from that time are strong; just try to connect liftarms with them - construction with older 2l pins is much stronger (I have some from 8880 set used on moc Unimog to make front part less wobble)

[Jeroen Ottens]

Just now, schraubedrin said:

Thanks, that's very interesting information! Where did you get that from?

I think it was mentioned in the designer video of the 42009 or in one of the interviews Markus gave. And I ran into the same issue on my Liebherr LTM11200 (in the outriggers )

[mocbuild101]

8 hours ago, I_Igor said:

construction with older 2l pins is much stronger

I rarely use those old pins - because sometimes they are almost impossible to remove...

 

9 hours ago, Jeroen Ottens said:

The blue pins are just a little bit longer than 3L so they stick out if you would use them.

Very interesting... but why did Lego make them like that?

[Lipko]

Actually I don't thing 3L pins are longer than 3L but the beams are little bit thinner than 1L. 2 beams together (on the longer half of the 3L pin) means the difference is twice from the ideal 2L. That's the main reason I don't like the stacking beams technique. The same is truth for stacking things (bushes/connectors/etc) on axles. That's actually a quite annoying property of Lego, and I don't remember it from the studded era so my first contact with the studless was quite shocking, quality seemed much worse than I remembered.

I don't know about the 2Lpin with bush part, does it also stick out or it has smaller than 2L pin?

Edited July 6, 2017 by Lipko

[mocbuild101]

2 hours ago, Lipko said:

the beams are little bit thinner than 1L

Beams are slightly thinner, but not in the direction that the pin goes in.

[kolbjha]

4 hours ago, mocbuild101 said:

I rarely use those old pins - because sometimes they are almost impossible to remove...

Are you thinking of the black friction pins without slot (from before 1990), or those from the 90's with the slot? The first one is really hard to remove, the 90's version with slot is thicker than today's pins, and also stronger (I think), but still relatively easy to remove.

4 hours ago, Lipko said:

Actually I don't thing 3L pins are longer than 3L but the beams are little bit thinner than 1L. 2 beams together (on the longer half of the 3L pin) means the difference is twice from the ideal 2L. That's the main reason I don't like the stacking beams technique. The same is truth for stacking things (bushes/connectors/etc) on axles. That's actually a quite annoying property of Lego, and I don't remember it from the studded era so my first contact with the studless was quite shocking, quality seemed much worse than I remembered.

I think you are right, the beams and technic bricks are thinner than 1L (8 mm), more like 7.8 mm. I think the reason from TLG's side is to make it easier to build and take apart the bricks in normal studded building. I guess the same thickness used for bricks also is used for technic beams. I assume the reason this didn't appear as an issue in the studful era, is that for example plates often were used together with the bricks, effectively eliminating the effect of stacking bricks getting thinner than the "ideal" width, as the distance between the studs on the plate is 1L (8 mm).

Edited July 6, 2017 by kolbjha

[kolbjha]

1 hour ago, mocbuild101 said:

Beams are slightly thinner, but not in the direction that the pin goes in.

Beams actually ARE thinner than 8 mm (1L) in the direction that the pin goes in (width), but - and I guess that's your point - they are even thinner the other direction (height).

[mocbuild101]

5 hours ago, kolbjha said:

Are you thinking of the black friction pins without slot (from before 1990), or those from the 90's with the slot? The first one is really hard to remove, the 90's version with slot is thicker than today's pins, and also stronger (I think), but still relatively easy to remove.

I'm thinking of the pins without slot, but I wasn't aware that there were two types of pin with slot - and I haven't notice any difference between the pins I have...

[N-4K0]

In general, I personally would like the 2L black pins to be a little thicker and more solid cos whenever I want to make a rigid 2L thick connection, I find it necessary to use LBG frictionless pins together with them if I have less than like 5 studs for the connection. The frictionless pins adds more "hold" than the friction pins alone, I find.

[1gor]

14 hours ago, mocbuild101 said:

I rarely use those old pins - because sometimes they are almost impossible to remove...

I know the feeling - something like this  or even this 

[mocbuild101]

9 hours ago, I_Igor said:

I know the feeling - something like this  or even this 

sometimes I even have to get out the hammer!

But anyway, back to topic...

Edited July 7, 2017 by mocbuild101

[1gor]

11 hours ago, mocbuild101 said:

sometimes I even have to get out the hammer!

But anyway, back to topic...

But first Congratulation on becoming new member of Eurobricks Knights 

[TechnicRCRacer]

On 7/5/2017 at 9:44 PM, mocbuild101 said:

I rarely use those old pins - because sometimes they are almost impossible to remove..

I have about ten different pieces from these stuck in them

On 7/6/2017 at 8:32 AM, Error404 said:

In general, I personally would like the 2L black pins to be a little thicker and more solid cos whenever I want to make a rigid 2L thick connection, I find it necessary to use LBG frictionless pins together with them if I have less than like 5 studs for the connection. The frictionless pins adds more "hold" than the friction pins alone, I find.

Yeah, but the Arocs grille would have been impossible to make. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by TechnicRCRacer

[Erik Leppen]

What I lik eabout the new 2L black pins is that bars fit inside (for example, the flex axle's ends). I sometimes use this.

I never felt the need to add gray pins.

[TechnicRCRacer]

3 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

What I lik eabout the new 2L black pins is that bars fit inside (for example, the flex axle's ends)

Just like the grille of the Arocs. This has saved my butt multiple times!

[JonathanM]

On 7/5/2017 at 9:44 AM, valenciaeric said:

Same with the little Volvo last year. Lego are very good at inflating part counts by adding lots of pins and other little parts.

I reckon most of the reason is that the builds are getting denser. I feel like there's much more structural form-locking being done in newer models compared to old. The CLAAS and 42066 are recent builds that showed this quite strongly I think - part of it is no doubt the new pin-hole with pin/axle parts that allow tighter form-locking. Having just taken apart the CLAAS B-model I often had to look from a few angles to figure out which was the next bit that should come off to get it apart!

I suspect the reason 42068 and 42069 have such high part counts is just that they're quite dense. 42069 also has the tracks, rubber inserts, and no doubt quite a few system parts in the jerry cans. 42070, on the other hand seems quite sparse structurally in comparison (e.g. quite open rear end), thus the lower part count.

[mocbuild101]

3 hours ago, JonathanM said:

I reckon most of the reason is that the builds are getting denser. I feel like there's much more structural form-locking being done in newer models compared to old.

I agree, some of the more recent sets really pack a lot in - especially when compared to older sets!

 

10 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

What I like about the new 2L black pins is that bars fit inside (for example, the flex axle's ends)

Yes, I have used them like that many times - it's very handy!

 

11 hours ago, I_Igor said:

But first Congratulation on becoming new member of Eurobricks Knights 

Thanks, it feels good to be a Knight!