Future Castle Sets?

[RichardGoring]

1 hour ago, icm said:

Some set designer said once (sorry, I'm not going to take the time to find the citation) that the trouble with Castle and Pirates as full-fledged themes is that the pirate ship / castle at the top of the line outsells the rest of the line by so much that it's not really worthwhile to make the other sets.  So they put a pirate ship / castle of the usual size in Creator 3-in-1 because they weren't able to get approval for a full lineup, and Creator 3-in-1 is the best place for one-offs.  That's less of a problem in other lines because the big set at the top of the line isn't so singularly iconic at summing up the whole point of the line as a pirate ship sums up Pirates or a castle sums up Castle.

That does seem very logical.

[zoth33]

3 hours ago, Rattlebricks said:

 

The reason why we dont get full fledge castle theme is because TLG prefers an easy path that is lisenced, plus their designer department isnt a fan of Castle theme.

Speaking of theme popularity among kids ,  a brand as big as Lego should and could become trend setter instead of following trend all the time.

They have designers they have hired that are on this website that are castle fans on their designer team.  Soccerkid to name one

2 hours ago, SirBlake said:

According to whom? I know for a fact that there are current TLG designers that consider Castle their favorite theme to MOC on their own time, such as Nuju Metru, who is a member here. Anything that keeps a Castle theme off of shelves is going to be business driven based on their market research, which isn't something they share a lot of information on.

Though I don't have any more insight into that research than anyone else outside of TLG, I personally don't agree with their findings, based on the years-long draught we've had (the last year notwithstanding). Either way, we're getting castles now, so it doesn't seem right to complain.

Yeah also Soccerkid is there too.  Also Mark and his brother Steven 2 big castle guys and admittedly on the show for Lego Masters won this past season in the US.  

[Triceron]

I missed out on a lot of big castle sets on account of being too young at the time.  By the time I could get a large castle set, it happened to be the Fright Knights Witch's Magical Manor, which was probably the least Castle-looking set ever haha.  Most of my collection was minifigure focused, on the original battle packs, bonus packs and small-to-medium sized sets.  The closest thing I had to an actual castle was Knight's Stronghold.

It's interesting to hear that the other sets don't really sell well outside of the big castle sets.  I never would have realized that since I've only ever collected the smaller packs.  I'm super happy that they're making a big castle set now though.  My Crusaders  and Black Falcons have been waiting for a very long time for this!

[BrickJagger]

3 hours ago, icm said:

Some set designer said once (sorry, I'm not going to take the time to find the citation) that the trouble with Castle and Pirates as full-fledged themes is that the pirate ship / castle at the top of the line outsells the rest of the line by so much that it's not really worthwhile to make the other sets.  So they put a pirate ship / castle of the usual size in Creator 3-in-1 because they weren't able to get approval for a full lineup, and Creator 3-in-1 is the best place for one-offs.  That's less of a problem in other lines because the big set at the top of the line isn't so singularly iconic at summing up the whole point of the line as a pirate ship sums up Pirates or a castle sums up Castle.

If that's the logic, it took them over 35 years to realize it, since they'd been following the exact same formula in terms of set distribution.

They have the sales numbers and I don't, but I find it very hard to believe that small army builder sets were languishing on the shelves while the castles were flying off of them. There are two main groups of people who buy sets: Kids and adults. Kids only have enough money for impulse buys, like $10 and $20 sets. Unless their parents are rich, they're only getting castles as birthday or Christmas presents.

Adults, who can afford the castles on a whim, are likely buying even more of those impulse sets than the kids, for army-building purposes. If that weren't the case, the "Post Your Castle Army Here" thread wouldn't be full of thousand-figure strong collections. 

Perhaps it's true that in terms of money, the castles are generating more revenue. After all, it takes ten Prison Carriage Rescues to match one King's Castle. But taking away those small sets cuts off most kids' ability to get anything at all from their favorite theme. You're telling me that if last year's castle didn't launch alongside a set with a catapult and two Black Falcons, it wouldn't sell like hotcakes?

Lego's "strategy" is a self-fulfilling prophecy borne out of laziness. 

[Rattlebricks]

9 minutes ago, BrickJagger said:

If that's the logic, it took them over 35 years to realize it, since they'd been following the exact same formula in terms of set distribution.

They have the sales numbers and I don't, but I find it very hard to believe that small army builder sets were languishing on the shelves while the castles were flying off of them. There are two main groups of people who buy sets: Kids and adults. Kids only have enough money for impulse buys, like $10 and $20 sets. Unless their parents are rich, they're only getting castles as birthday or Christmas presents.

Adults, who can afford the castles on a whim, are likely buying even more of those impulse sets than the kids, for army-building purposes. If that weren't the case, the "Post Your Castle Army Here" thread wouldn't be full of thousand-figure strong collections. 

Perhaps it's true that in terms of money, the castles are generating more revenue. After all, it takes ten Prison Carriage Rescues to match one King's Castle. But taking away those small sets cuts off most kids' ability to get anything at all from their favorite theme. You're telling me that if last year's castle didn't launch alongside a set with a catapult and two Black Falcons, it wouldn't sell like hotcakes?

Lego's "strategy" is a self-fulfilling prophecy borne out of laziness. 

Exactly

[Triceron]

2 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

If that's the logic, it took them over 35 years to realize it, since they'd been following the exact same formula in terms of set distribution.

Well, the thing is Castles and Fantasy in general is not as appealing to kids as say in the 80's and 90's.  What appeals to kids today is a different type of 'fantasy'.

Knights and Castles are not regarded in the same way as it used to be, when the myths of King Arthur or Robin Hood were well recognized and understood as a mainstream folk tale.  Today, modern fantasy revolves around Superheroes. And for the fantasy genre, it's Harry Potter.  It's how pop culture and mainstream has progressed.

Harry Potter has mostly filled the gaps that Castle left behind.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Triceron

[Roebuck]

2 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

If that's the logic, it took them over 35 years to realize it, since they'd been following the exact same formula in terms of set distribution.

I think the marked may have changed a lot during those years, when I was a kid and the pirates hit the marked, by brother and me managed to collect most of the small sets as gifts over time. I vaguely remember saving for a long time to buy even Sabre island, the bigger sets where out of our league we did not have a lot of money growing up. That was the same for most other kids at the time, I am not sure we even knew one that had the Black seas barracuda or Eldorado fortress.
Now on the other hand kids often gets more gifts for one birthday then I did most of my youth combined, people have a lot more money now at least here and the kids are spoiled so if a pirate line came out now a lot of them would probably get the flagship set before even the cheapest set in the line

[Rattlebricks]

2 hours ago, Triceron said:

Well, the thing is Castles and Fantasy in general is not as appealing to kids as say in the 80's and 90's.  What appeals to kids today is a different type of 'fantasy'.

Knights and Castles are not regarded in the same way as it used to be, when the myths of King Arthur or Robin Hood were well recognized and understood as a mainstream folk tale.  Today, modern fantasy revolves around Superheroes. And for the fantasy genre, it's Harry Potter.  It's how pop culture and mainstream has progressed.

Harry Potter has mostly filled the gaps that Castle left behind.

Tolkien stuff remains popular in pop culture, GOT is another example. Castle , King, Medieval still sells.

Zelda also revolves around Castle, King, knights, sword,  bow/arrow etc, the latest game sold over 20 million copies , and Zelda is influenced by Robin Hood and Arthurian legends. Warcraft, Skyrim & Diablo are another examples. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Rattlebricks

[Triceron]

9 hours ago, Rattlebricks said:

Tolkien stuff remains popular in pop culture, GOT is another example. Castle , King, Medieval still sells.

Zelda also revolves around Castle, King, knights, sword,  bow/arrow etc, the latest game sold over 20 million copies , and Zelda is influenced by Robin Hood and Arthurian legends. Warcraft, Skyrim & Diablo are another examples. 

I was mostly talking about fantasy series aimed at kids.  GoT and LOTR are popular, but still generally aimed more at adults.  Kids gravitate more around the Ninjago and Harry Potter series from what I've seen.

Zelda is also more of a 80's nostalgic series.  Even with the success of Breath of the Wild and Zelda's continued existence in popular mainstream, it doesn't have the kid-appeal.  Kids recognize the franchise, but relatively have little attachment to it compared to games like Minecraft or Mario.

The popular fantasy series we have today that aren't Harry Potter are mostly aimed at adults.  LOTR, GoT, Witcher, Zelda, even Warcraft and Skyrim.  I can see them doing one-off Ideas sets or limited runs based on these franchises, which is about the same with what they're already doing with Castle.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Triceron

[SirBlake]

Let us also consider that Dungeons & Dragons has never been more popular than it is today.

I sure remember when I was 12 or so, being heavily into both D&D and Lego Castles at the same time, and that was in the 80's when D&D was much less popular, and more mired in the "satanic panic" of the time. Thankfully my parents weren't spooked by that notion.

That may not be in the 8-10 sweet spot that TLG is hoping for, but it ain't nothin' either.

[Aanchir]

22 hours ago, icm said:

Some set designer said once (sorry, I'm not going to take the time to find the citation) that the trouble with Castle and Pirates as full-fledged themes is that the pirate ship / castle at the top of the line outsells the rest of the line by so much that it's not really worthwhile to make the other sets.  So they put a pirate ship / castle of the usual size in Creator 3-in-1 because they weren't able to get approval for a full lineup, and Creator 3-in-1 is the best place for one-offs.  That's less of a problem in other lines because the big set at the top of the line isn't so singularly iconic at summing up the whole point of the line as a pirate ship sums up Pirates or a castle sums up Castle. 

That sort of thing also happens with trains — which is why LEGO no longer sells locomotives, wagons, and coaches individually like they did back in the 80s or 90s.

As skeptical as a lot of train fans are of these observations, that approach seems to be working out alright for LEGO so far from a business standpoint, considering that they still can justify introducing at least two new City train sets of that sort every four years. I'm sure Pirates and Castle fans would love if they could count on at least two full-size castle or ship playsets every four years, compared to the droughts between new releases that those themes have had in recent years!

21 hours ago, SirBlake said:

According to whom? I know for a fact that there are current TLG designers that consider Castle their favorite theme to MOC on their own time, such as Nuju Metru, who is a member here. Anything that keeps a Castle theme off of shelves is going to be business driven based on their market research, which isn't something they share a lot of information on.

Yeah, the idea that LEGO designers aren't Castle fans doesn't line up with what I've heard/seen at all. Especially since LEGO has hired a number of designers out of the AFOL community. That love of classic themes like Castle is a big part of why there have been so many references to older Castle themes in the collectible minifigures over the years, and also why so much care was put into the design process for the Medieval Blacksmith.

Even Mark Stafford, whose set designs have usually been more geared towards sci-fi themes and genre-bending "action themes" like Nexo Knights, was active on Classic-Castle.com back in the day, and you can still see several of his Castle MOCs from his AFOL days on his Brickshelf. For that matter, Matthew Ashton (LEGO's VP of Design) oversaw the development of the Fantasy-Era Castle sets back in 2007, which he spoke about at length in this interview.

I realize being without new waves of sets from a favorite theme for years on end can be SUPER frustrating, but there's no need to assume that the decision-makers at LEGO are against, disinterested in, or clueless about the themes you enjoy. Unfortunately, a big part of being a designer is putting the stuff that seems to sell best and resonate best with buyers ahead of your own personal preferences.

It's a true stroke of luck for a designer any time those goals happen to align and they get to design their own "dream set". And to be honest, I strongly suspect might end up being the case for whoever was assigned to work on the rumored 350€ castle based on the LEGO Ideas 90th anniversary fan vote! That's not the sort of project that a designer tends to be grudgingly assigned to — and like Barracuda Bay, I'm sure this will be a true labor of love for whichever designer is willing elects to turn a concept this ambitious into a reality.

[SirBlake]

16 hours ago, Aanchir said:

It's a true stroke of luck for a designer any time those goals happen to align and they get to design their own "dream set". And to be honest, I strongly suspect might end up being the case for whoever was assigned to work on the rumored 350€ castle based on the LEGO Ideas 90th anniversary fan vote! That's not the sort of project that a designer tends to be grudgingly assigned to — and like Barracuda Bay, I'm sure this will be a true labor of love for whichever designer is willing elects to turn a concept this ambitious into a reality.

Just quoting this because this forum doesn't have a "like" button. There's your "like", Aanchir. :)

[BrickJagger]

The fact that Lego is reintroducing horse bardings in the Queen's Castle makes me hopeful that Castle could be making a full-time comeback. I don't think that mold has been used since as least 2013, so I doubt they'd bring it back for one set and one set only.

The Black Falcons have also graduated from a homage to a full-blown revival, as they've appeared in three sets spread out over two years. When you add in the Viking longboat and possible companion village, a lot of things are pointing in the right direction for the first time in what feels like forever.

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, BrickJagger said:

The fact that Lego is reintroducing horse bardings in the Queen's Castle makes me hopeful that Castle could be making a full-time comeback. I don't think that mold has been used since as least 2013, so I doubt they'd bring it back for one set and one set only. 

Well, seeing as the old horse bardings were only used briefly, they're probably still in usable condition. I doubt it'd be too hard for the designers to pull them out of storage for a premium set of this sort, just like LEGO did with the 2x2x4 flat-front windscreen for 10218 Pet Shop back in 2011.

But yeah, I'm hoping they stick around a bit longer and appear in more sets after this than they did in 2013 — especially if it means getting them in more colors. Even outside of the Castle theme, I could see more modern-day themes introducing them with new colors or patterns for stuff like carousel horses!

[MatthewRC]

On 9/8/2021 at 5:11 PM, INTENSS said:

Unfortunately, Lego dropped the ball by not approving the Viking Village Ideas set by BrickHammer.  Otherwise we would have had a nice Vikings 1-2 punch like Pirates and Castle previously.

At least BrickHammer's Viking Village is getting a second chance via a Fan Vote in collaboration with Target.

[INTENSS]

On 5/23/2022 at 9:52 PM, MatthewRC said:

At least BrickHammer's Viking Village is getting a second chance via a Fan Vote in collaboration with Target.

True indeed!   Let’s make it happen!

[JamesBenjamin]

On 5/23/2022 at 8:31 PM, BrickJagger said:

The fact that Lego is reintroducing horse bardings in the Queen's Castle makes me hopeful that Castle could be making a full-time comeback. I don't think that mold has been used since as least 2013, so I doubt they'd bring it back for one set and one set only.

The Black Falcons have also graduated from a homage to a full-blown revival, as they've appeared in three sets spread out over two years. When you add in the Viking longboat and possible companion village, a lot of things are pointing in the right direction for the first time in what feels like forever.

Forgive me, but what is the Queen's Castle? I've seen in mentioned a few places but haven't seen it. Rumor of new set?

[Triceron]

21 minutes ago, JamesBenjamin said:

Forgive me, but what is the Queen's Castle? I've seen in mentioned a few places but haven't seen it. Rumor of new set?

It's the 90th anniversary "Lion King's Castle" set people have been talking about.  Promobricks revealed the minifigs and it will have a Queen figure, but no King, leading to people to speculate a name change to something like 'Lion Queen's Castle'.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Triceron

[JamesBenjamin]

17 hours ago, Triceron said:

It's the 90th anniversary "Lion King's Castle" set people have been talking about.  Promobricks revealed the minifigs and it will have a Queen figure, but no King, leading to people to speculate a name change to something like 'Lion Queen's Castle'.

OH! That makes a lot more sense. I assume if I were around these forums more I would have gotten the joke. Thanks!

[Khargeust]

Yesterday Black Falcons, today Forestmen and tomorrow Lion Knights. Beautiful, I'm delighted !

Do you think LEGO could capitalize on the nostalgia of the Wolfpack, Black Knights, or maybe other factions in the future by re-releasing them with matching sets, or aren't they iconic enough that something is seriously possible with them ?

[Triceron]

13 minutes ago, Khargeust said:

Yesterday Black Falcons, today Forestmen and tomorrow Lion Knights. Beautiful, I'm delighted !

Do you think LEGO could capitalize on the nostalgia of the Wolfpack, Black Knights, or maybe other factions in the future by re-releasing them with matching sets, or aren't they iconic enough that something is seriously possible with them ?

Hard to say, since it seems like Lego needed a major event like the 90th anniversary poll just to get off their arses to make a new Castle set.

I personally don't see this extending well beyond a one-off nostalgia cash in for them.  I think they're more aware of the demand now than ever before, but I don't think it's enough to motivate them dedicating a new theme/subtheme to recapture the classics.  I mean, I can always hope that they do, but it's hard to base any expectations of future Castle sets off a 90th Anniversary set and promotional gift.

[SirBlake]

39 minutes ago, Triceron said:

Hard to say, since it seems like Lego needed a major event like the 90th anniversary poll just to get off their arses to make a new Castle set.

I personally don't see this extending well beyond a one-off nostalgia cash in for them.  I think they're more aware of the demand now than ever before, but I don't think it's enough to motivate them dedicating a new theme/subtheme to recapture the classics.  I mean, I can always hope that they do, but it's hard to base any expectations of future Castle sets off a 90th Anniversary set and promotional gift.

That makes too much sense. Well thought out and level headed. But it does nothing to feed my bottomless appetite for more Castle, lol. 
 

I’d still love a battle pack of some sort. 

I could also see occasional reimagining of sets like the Forestmen GWP (though hopefully not delivered through that mechanism)

Stuff like Wolfpack Tower or Majisto’s Magical Workshop or the Guarded Inn. 
 

With the revival and update of classic themes, it feels weird to recommend deviating from that direction, but I would also welcome fresh approaches, not just redesigning classic sets. An all new Wolfpack build would be pretty great since that faction is so under served. 

[BrickJagger]

I don't think it's too much to ask for, at the very least, some small follow-up sets that don't even necessarily have new prints or molds. The most common complaint I've seen about this castle is how expensive it is. Lego rolling out a small cart or catapult with a minifigure or two next year would address that. It could even be a creator 3-in-1 like this was for space fans: https://brickset.com/sets/31111-1/Cyber-Drone , but with a Crusader with a chain mail torso, and a build that could be a cart, trebuchet or palisade.

Edited June 20, 2022 by BrickJagger

[Merlo]

13 hours ago, SirBlake said:

That makes too much sense. Well thought out and level headed. But it does nothing to feed my bottomless appetite for more Castle, lol. 

I’d still love a battle pack of some sort. 

I could also see occasional reimagining of sets like the Forestmen GWP (though hopefully not delivered through that mechanism)

Stuff like Wolfpack Tower or Majisto’s Magical Workshop or the Guarded Inn. 
 

With the revival and update of classic themes, it feels weird to recommend deviating from that direction, but I would also welcome fresh approaches, not just redesigning classic sets. An all new Wolfpack build would be pretty great since that faction is so under served. 

If there's many castle fans, there's no reason Lego doesn't keep making these one offs. We did go from Blacksmith to Creator castle to a huge *** castle after all.

Battle pack would be a hit.

I would love reimaginings of old sets, but something with way more effort than "this old set, but with new bricks, and worse".
Barracuda bay quality would please me.

Let me be brutally honest for a second, tho.

Wolfpack tower is amazing. Someone made that in 1992, with the bricks available in 1992. That thing feels like a tower on a big lake, with a long bridge and an imposing entrance and a rough cliff even though it's made from like 12 bricks or something.
I can imagine the torches burning and the wind waving those flags. The color scheme and the figures are among the best Lego ever had. The four grey slopes on the entrance are everything. That's how you make evocative sets.
I am 100% convinced no one at Lego today can make something like that and the "let's make the creator castle bigger and grayer" is the biggest proof of that.
And I don't say that because of nostalgia either. I never had the wolfpack tower and it came out soon after my dark ages started, so I didn't even know it exists for many years.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Merlo

[MAB]

13 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

I don't think it's too much to ask for, at the very least, some small follow-up sets that don't even necessarily have new prints or molds. The most common complaint I've seen about this castle is how expensive it is.

Maybe that is because LEGO has identified that the people that want a large castle with lots of nods to sets from 40 years ago are adults and not children, and that if they are going to milk the market they might as well go big. If they made a $100 castle instead of a $400 one, would they sell 4x as many? Especially considering that there is already a smaller Creator castle on the shelves right now.

13 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

... Lego rolling out a small cart or catapult with a minifigure or two next year would address that. It could even be a creator 3-in-1 like this was for space fans: https://brickset.com/sets/31111-1/Cyber-Drone , but with a Crusader with a chain mail torso, and a build that could be a cart, trebuchet or palisade.

That Creator set is not that different to other smaller Creator sets, with or without the Classic Space badge on the torso. If LEGO did a small one off castle type set, it wouldn't really fit in with the smaller Creator range which is very tech / space / vehicle. It would fit with the Creator castle, so if they were going to do it, they should have done it already. If there were no castle sets on the shelves, a one off small Creator set based on castle figures would probably not do too well as it doesn't go with anything.

49 minutes ago, Merlo said:

I would love reimaginings of old sets, but something with way more effort than "this old set, but with new bricks, and worse".

The danger here is if they remake old sets, they do the same as the new Castle set - they aim it at adults through nostalgia and it becomes another multiple $100s set. I think I'd prefer them to forget the past, and if there is a market for it then make sets for today's kids. Include Easter Eggs to past themes, that's fine. But if they go for rebuilds of past sets I agree it has to be more than just here is the old set. Otherwise, they will just be expensive sets aimed at adults with fatter wallets.