Baritones 3: The Conclusion

[Tamamono]

I'm not very happy with my performance, as I realise that so many people had me nailed as scum. I guess I was saved by Dragonator who was in the spotlight for the major part of the game. On the other hand, our success as a team hinged on Draggy not being convicted, and we were lucky that he brilliantly escaped conviction so many times!

It was only because of your inactivity. You were so proactive in Belville that your lack of activity in this game made it kind of obvious.

Oops, I made the enigma too difficult! It was meant to be solved as 'Beware of Timur'

Ah, I see how that worked. One townie comes forward with a message asking people to trust someone, and then the other townie comes forward with a message telling everyone not to trust the very person who came forward with the first message. I have to admit, it was a great plan. Luckily, neither Peanuts nor I had the guts to bring forward our 'dream messages'.

Then you're... you'd be gravely mistaken, and if you'd thought that back then, when I'd later been shown to be an active Townie, why on earth make the same (wrong) assumption now?

You weren't really acting the same in this game as you were in that one. I don't know, maybe I'm not metagaming enough.

I do find it somewhat amusing that the entire time I was Town you "were on to me" being scum, and after I was converted we had some useful conversations where you trusted me enough to provide me with some pertinent information that I was able to verify with my team-mates and subsequently use in my defence.

That was only because you presented those PMs from Shadows and Draggy. But yes, it is pretty funny.

[Fugazi]

It was only because of your inactivity. You were so proactive in Belville that your lack of activity in this game made it kind of obvious.

Yes, Pandora said the same when we converted her. Travel and gastroenteritis did partly contribute to my being low profile on some days, and though I was active in Belville I was a low profile townie in most previous games. The conclusion being that I created expectations of a proactive townie that I didn't manage to simulate as a scum. But as scum I found quite difficult to be bold and make the moves that I knew a townie in my position would make. Something to improve on in the future!

[JimBee]

[super long post, bear with me please.]

Well, good game everyone. It definitely was a blast, and has been the most fun I've had in a mafia game since Eurodina. I don't think I did as horrible as I've (as one of the townies that's not iamded) been said to have done, but definitely not my best game. I was confused as hell most of the time, and was tricked more than once. Especially after reading the responses here, I felt extremely outplayed (Foog). I wish I would've branched out and PMd more people to get a better feel for things.

What I am proud of (if it's the only good thing I did in this game) was my aggression towards Draggy. I voted for him three days in a row, but there weren't enough people that followed me. I had allied myself with Sandy on Day 4, and later Tammo. We were in the process of finding iamded innocent, and we could've made a powerful team, but that took too long and it was too late before I died and then the next day we lost.

I realized that I had been given an extremely powerful role, but I wasn't using it right for part of the time. Namely, when I tracked Roncanator and saw him kill Zepher, and didn't use my head before revealing all this to Sandy. I wasn't much use after that, since the following consecutive nights I tried to track/watch Draggy but was blocked by KV and Def.

Which brings me to the point of roles and game balance. Hinck, you threw an awesome game, but I just think that there were too many power roles in general. The game balance was fine, but the large amount of power roles and the inclusion of multiple mafias really made things complicated. It really could've gone either way, but Lady Luck was just not with the town on this one, and everything was pretty confusing.

There were also some pretty powerful roles. Not to say I didn't like mine, but IMO Rick's was too much. An unkillable killer who can kill the unkillable? And track and watch? I know you have to give the neutrals some special powers, but you can't make them invincible. Not to say that Rick didn't play excellently, though.

Also, looking at the night actions, the scum were pretty powerful. Generally speaking, I'm completely against punishing the town for not reaching a lynch, at least to the extreme of handing the scum more power when this happens.

Okay, I'm done ranting about the mechanics for now. Love you, Hinck!

A few other notes, WaterBrick Down, you played wonderfully. You had me fooled from start to finish, and I think it would've been different if I hadn't PMd you in the first place. So, great game.

Tammo, I don't know what to make of you anymore. You turned out to be right half of the time, and dead wrong the other half. I was beginning to find it hard to trust you towards the end. I remember you saying at one point that everyone except me, you, Sandy, and Rick were scum. Still, I enjoyed playing with you and I wish our alliance with Sandy and iamded would've come together quicker.

As for throwing the game back into balance, I think you did fine with the back-up roles. Changing the game while it's playing is never a good idea, and I think you did well in not "beefing the town back up", Hinck.

I would be interested in knowing the possibilities of the Fool Moon abilities that were given to the scum teams. How powerful were they? For example, how much could a rule be changed, and what were the parameters of the Dream Whisperer?

[Brickdoctor]

Luckily, neither Peanuts nor I had the guts to bring forward our 'dream messages'.

Really? You didn't have guts?

[CMP]

I would be interested in knowing the possibilities of the Fool Moon abilities that were given to the scum teams. How powerful were they?

Depended on how drunk Hinck was at the time. It didn't seem like he had any limitations, other than that it couldn't be too ridiculous, and only lasted a day.

[Hinckley]

Depended on how drunk Hinck was at the time. It didn't seem like he had any limitations, other than that it couldn't be too ridiculous, and only lasted a day.

If you had read what I wrote, you would see that I said I had oversight and nothing too drastic could be changed. Like your suggestion that anyone who posted was killed. Clever.

[RileyC]

Great game everyone! Loved the ending!

Ok yes I was the town killer. And yeah maybe it was stupid of me not to bring it up on the day when I was convicted but I thought you guys (especially Sandy ) wouldn't believe me yet again just like when I brought up my evidence from Shadows about Draggy and Def. Cause I thought if you guys thought an unblockable follower was bad, try an unblockable killer! That wouldn't have looked very good and probably would've gotten me killed even quicker... Oh well I had fun killing Zepher even if he was town. Maybe I didn't use my killing enough but I rather be safe than sorry I think and at least I saw WBD in the act, even if he was only blocking. I really thought you were a killer but just extremely lucky I guess. WBD you played really well, I was so close to unvoting but I knew I couldn't pussy out like that. Just got lucky.

Hinck you put on a terrific game here! The writing and images were all really top-notch and so funny too! Every day was better than the last and I absolutely loved my death conclusion. I loved to be killed now!

I'll post more about some other things later though! Busy busy busy!

[Hinckley]

JimB, thank you for the in-depth game analysis. I will certainly take you advice into consideration in the future.

There were also some pretty powerful roles. Not to say I didn't like mine, but IMO Rick's was too much. An unkillable killer who can kill the unkillable? And track and watch? I know you have to give the neutrals some special powers, but you can't make them invincible. Not to say that Rick didn't play excellently, though.

Rick did make the most out of that role and that is ultimately why it was successful. Well, that and it was very beefed up. He could've been killed on Day One after all. But, I will go into more detail once I finally get notes and player analysis up. My main intent with the serial killer role was to make it a contender to win. The serial killer is usually neutral and kills and really has no other ally but him/herself. So I did the research on Mafiawiki and took the advice there to beef up the role as much as that site recommends. The tracking ability is very powerful and I did that on my own. Perhaps that was a bit much, but I do think it was balanced. There were a lot of people who could track Rick and being bulletproof is usually a red herring. And in a game with this many people, a powerful serial killer can keep the game moving. Rick certainly took out his share of both sides. I believe he hit three scum and three Town. That's a better track record than the Town for taking out scum. I think in the future, I may make this role less powerful or beef up the win condition. Now that a serial killer has won a game (EB first? ) this role should evolve accordingly. Either weaken it or take it to a different level, not necessarily higher, but something unique. I got some ideas from Maifiawiki for my next game, whatever that is.

As far as Full Moon powers, this is meant to keep the Town active and using their vote. It forces the Town to work together. As far as making the scum too powerful, it has to be a good penalty, otherwise the Town won't pay attention. The Dream Whisperer and Playing God are a hit or miss for effectiveness. The strong-arm wasn't necessary since the blockers were gone. Maybe that's a bit much, but especially at that point in a game, the town should be paying attention. Especially on the night the second one happened. If the entire Town had been active and paying attention, def or Draggy should've been voted out that day. How did it not happen? Nobody was sticking around in order for the Town alliance to rally them. Nobody was paying close enough attention to the conspicuous voting record of the day. Penalizing the Town for not convicting works really well, in my opinion, but I will certainly consider your advice in my next game. Perhaps I should just let the voters vote and if they convict, fine. Again, there was also the idea that this game was very large, with the amount of players and not convicting gave it the potential to drag the game out. Catya was removed (due to inactivity) as a penalty of having two nights without conviction. The first night, Draggy got to investigate twice, the second night, I removed an inactive player. And she was randomly chosen from low posters. I'm glad it was her because she was the lowest participant, so that was lucky on the Town's part, but the low Scum posters were in the hat, too...

The Night Actions are up in the second post of this thread. I'm extremely embarrassed to admit that I mixed an action up one night. It didn't effect the outcome either way. I told Rick he successfully poisoned CorneliusMurdock even though WhiteFang had protected him. I'm sure I would've caught this had Corenlius not blown himself up. Still, it's embarrassingly sloppy on my part. And I'm sure a bit aggravating for Cornelius to know I was wrong when I told him his night would've ended anyway.

I'm still working on getting the notes and player analysis together. I forgot how long it takes to conclude a game.

[CorneliusMurdock]

I told Rick he successfully poisoned CorneliusMurdock even though WhiteFang had protected him. I'm sure I would've caught this had Corenlius not blown himself up. Still, it's embarrassingly sloppy on my part. And I'm sure a bit aggravating for Cornelius to know I was wrong when I told him his night would've ended anyway.

Thanks for trying, Fangy. It's actually comforting to know that the one person I confided in tried to protect me. Too bad you didn't have any antidote for grenades.

[Tamamono]

So that's why the scum were able to block JimB and find out his role as well as find out iamded's role! I was wondering, because I figured that there couldn't have possibly been enough blockers left to block JimB twice (Kartoffel was the 'dark figure lurking outside', while def was the hijacking blocker that gave you a headache). I'm not sure if it's really fair to let blockers know if their target has a night action or not, but I suppose that was to balance out the trackers being able to watch and track the same target in the same night.

Tammo, I don't know what to make of you anymore. You turned out to be right half of the time, and dead wrong the other half. I was beginning to find it hard to trust you towards the end. I remember you saying at one point that everyone except me, you, Sandy, and Rick were scum. Still, I enjoyed playing with you and I wish our alliance with Sandy and iamded would've come together quicker.

Hey, that's than last time!

I had a great time playing with you too, and that goes for everyone as well! I thoroughly enjoyed playing this game; thank you so much for letting me be a part of it, Hinck!

[Shadows]

Can you even tell me that now, Shadows?

That's easy... Dragonator made a slip up in a conversation we had during the last day. He was trying so hard to not be scum that it was instantly obvious he wasn't acting normal. def was obvious from the very start, to me, so obvious that when I finally had a chance to get someone killed, I thought it made more sense to let the town take care of him and take out the potentially bigger threat... Zepher.

As for the specifics of either situation, I think I'll save that for another game. No sense letting them know exactly how it happened and giving them a chance to hide better.

[Hinckley]

During the game I was keeping notes on my phone as I read the day threads. I just edited the second post to include the notes that I wrote. They are random thoughts and interjections and sometimes appear way out of order. I will do a proper player and game analysis some time before the end of the week.

I will say really fast that I was pretty happy with the game's balance. I can definitely see how the Town could feel overwhelmed when they see what they were up against. But, even with some of the poor decision making, the Scum still could've lost it. The balance was teetering on the edge for a little bit there, especially when everyone was suspicious of Draggy and Kartoffel got killed. When def was poisoned, that was an even bigger opportunity for the Town. It didn't work out, but there was still a great chance of the Town taking it even after they lost so many power roles in the first three days. I don't think the scum walked away with this and the game was won by Draggy avoiding the conviction. When I analyze the game, I think it'll be easier to see where it was balanced when I show you the setup and how the playing field was rather even from the beginning. Then again, I may look at it and say, "Oh crap, this was a little unbalanced." But, I doubt it.

[Dragonator]

So I guess I'm now a player assumed to be scum until lynched otherwise?

Welcome to the club!

There were also some pretty powerful roles. Not to say I didn't like mine, but IMO Rick's was too much. An unkillable killer who can kill the unkillable? And track and watch? I know you have to give the neutrals some special powers, but you can't make them invincible. Not to say that Rick didn't play excellently, though.

Just to quickly expand on Hinck's post above, this is generally how serial killer's are meant to be. They can kill at night, and are often immune to all night actions, including coming up as town if investigated. This is designed to give them a chance to survive, making taking them out by vote the only way to get rid of them. A similar serial killer role has been used in previous games. Also, I'm pretty sure EscapetheFate was a classic Serial Killer in Galactic Paranoia, so not the first time a SK has won.

That's easy... Dragonator made a slip up in a conversation we had during the last day. He was trying so hard to not be scum that it was instantly obvious he wasn't acting normal. def was obvious from the very start, to me, so obvious that when I finally had a chance to get someone killed, I thought it made more sense to let the town take care of him and take out the potentially bigger threat... Zepher.

Yep, that's 100% certain right there!

I do find it interesting that you realised I was scum but still followed my advice and told Roncanator to kill Zepher. Ah well, it was fun as usual, we know each other too well to play on opposite teams now. Let's be townies next game.

[Rick]

There were also some pretty powerful roles. Not to say I didn't like mine, but IMO Rick's was too much. An unkillable killer who can kill the unkillable? And track and watch? I know you have to give the neutrals some special powers, but you can't make them invincible. Not to say that Rick didn't play excellently, though.

I didn't even believe your role because of the powers it had, so I actually spend a long time thinking Sandy was scum or the scum were feeding him lies.

Thanks, but I kind of agree on my powers (and let Hinck know as much), but remember I didn't know I was bulletproof. So, in the end it just made sure we kept the body count rising throughout the game. I wouldn't have needed to strike a deal with the scum if I had known I was bulletproof. And I only used the strongarm action the final night on Brickdoctor.

Because it said in my role that it was incredibly hard for the town and scum to 'find' me, I actually thought I was a ninja instead . Pandora finally saw through it and Draggy decided to watch me on night 6.

I remember you saying at one point that everyone except me, you, Sandy, and Rick were scum.

I'm so town.

Rick certainly took out his share of both sides. I believe he hit three scum and three Town. That's a better track record than the Town for taking out scum. I think in the future, I may make this role less powerful or beef up the win condition. Now that a serial killer has won a game (EB first? ) this role should evolve accordingly. Either weaken it or take it to a different level, not necessarily higher, but something unique. I got some ideas from Maifiawiki for my next game, whatever that is.

The SK has won before with the scum before. Although, if I recall correctly, normally on EB mafia he just had to survive with the winning faction. My win condition included forming an explicit alliance with the scum. But yeah, I caused a few things in this game apparently. As I said, Masked Builder was pure (random) luck. But I saw KartoffelViking target BobTCM (while I poisoned him), which was the only time my tracking/watching ability was actually useful for making my decisions. Remember: I didn't get to chose who to track/watch in addition to the poisoning. This made it pretty hard to really 'find' the scum, because I'd kill them in addition to watching/tracking them. My only hope for really finding them (and being able to contact them afterwards) was picking the same target for a night kill and 'seeing' the scum killer target my target as well. That never happened.

Yep, that's 100% certain right there!

I remember someone slipping up like that in The Forest. Actually you both slipped up there, which got you both killed and resurrected again. And killed again.

[Hinckley]

so not the first time a SK has won.

Aw, nuts!

I do find it interesting that you realised I was scum but still followed my advice and told Roncanator to kill Zepher. Ah well, it was fun as usual, we know each other too well to play on opposite teams now. Let's be townies next game.

That makes sense. If he thought you knew he was scum, he probably figured you were trying to protect Zepher...or something.

[Inconspicuous]

What a conclusion! I have to say, I'm really bummed I was killed so early. This was a fantastic cast of players and I would have loved some more good 'ol Mafia action.

Hooray for being a useless investigator! No result on Night 1 and killed on Night 2! Second time I've been the investigator and been killed by scum in the first few days. How do they know!? Hinck, you mentioned that there was a good reason I was killed. It wouldn't have anything to do with this, would it?:

It was really disappointing for me, since grudges have no place in mafia (though it was my idea to kill you night two, Inky ).

Anyhoo, great game players, and fantastic job Hinckley for hosting!

[Hinckley]

Thanks, but I kind of agree on my powers (and let Hinck know as much),

This is true. Did you check out Mafiawiki to see what it says about the Serial Killer? I really think another player may have given him/herself away even with the beefed-up role. You played it very well. This is the first time I gave a serial killer more than just a kill. I really liked how it worked in the game and will definitely give future serial killers or arsonists ways to avoid detection. It kept a nice balance. However, I think in the future, I would let the serial killer only win by his/herself. With that much power, they should be able to make a good go at it. Maybe I'll make two shot bulletproof. I liked adding the tracker, because it gave an opportunity to build strategy. The Serial Killer should be a wild card and you were a true wild card in this. The scum might've walked with a lot more surviving members if it wasn't for you. I'm really happy with how your role turned out and I hope you are too. I hope you understand why the role was so strong and don't feel guilty about it or anything.

[Rick]

The scum might've walked with a lot more surviving members if it wasn't for you.

Well, yes, I did kill the majority.

I'm really happy with how your role turned out and I hope you are too. I hope you understand why the role was so strong and don't feel guilty about it or anything.

I loved playing it. It seemed fine, not knowing I was bullet proof. I don't think I could have survived any longer without being bullet proof (the scum would have killed me after finding me). As you said, having being the sole survivor as a win condition and knowing you're bullet proof (for example twice), would also be fine.

[Dragonator]

I think in the future, I would let the serial killer only win by his/herself. With that much power, they should be able to make a good go at it.

I would agree with this, that is generally how it is done. I have to say I wasn't overly hopeful when I contacted Rick, hence why I tried blackmailing him at first. But my dear wife understood I was just being cautious, so all was well.

[Hinckley]

Hinck, you mentioned that there was a good reason I was killed. It wouldn't have anything to do with this, would it?:

No, I said a good reason. You were on a list for other reasons. I believe you were a candidate despite def's grudge because you seemed to be playing smooth. I think they thought you were scum but I can't remember why. I'll have to check the writeboard. I wish I would write things down like that. I remember telling you that, but I don't remember why right now. Sorry.

[iamded]

Well, I tried. Mafia games are too megablocking stressful.

Hinck, you were an awesome host. I always love playing in your games, the story telling is top notch, and I love the characters you give me. I'm honoured to have taken part in a Baritones game.

Draggy, and the rest of the scum: My momma always said if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. But I'll admit you guys played a good game. I'm just bitter that Dwankie was never ▓▓▓▓ing lynched.

*Note: iamded is excluded from this for actually, I don't know, THINKING? Good job, Amy, you just didn't have anyone to work with.

Woo!

Iamded had contacted Sandy on Day 5 (I think?) and told her that he was the new inventor. The next day, Sandy comes back saying that iamded claimed that he couldn't use his action until Night 6. At this point I was pretty skeptical of his action, but still willing to give him a chance. The next day, Sandy comes back saying that iamded claimed he had been blocked. I pretty much called megablocks there and ignored what iamded had to say in the Day threads. Why oh why did I not listen to him?

Yeah, you were pissing me off pretty bad by arguing with everything I said, but I still had you pinned as a townie so I was just .

You'll notice my night action reads "Each night you may gift one of four inventions to another player.", so having read this I figured I'd send Sandy an item on night 5. I totally missed the ending that said "This action can only be used on even night starting with night 6.". I knew Sandy would be sceptical after that, but when I was blocked on Night 6 I knew Sandy would never trust me. Ah well.

[Dragonator]

My momma

When did you become an american!?

you Amy. Thanks for playing. I enjoyed our little sparring matches in the back room.

[Rick]

I enjoyed our little sparring matches in the back room.

You've been cheating on me, you megablocking nazi scumbag!?

I won't tell you where to find the antidote now.

[def]

No, I said a good reason. You were on a list for other reasons. I believe you were a candidate despite def's grudge because you seemed to be playing smooth. I think they thought you were scum but I can't remember why. I'll have to check the writeboard. I wish I would write things down like that. I remember telling you that, but I don't remember why right now. Sorry.

No, the main reason was we figured he would be a guareteed kill. The list of names was Inky, Foog, and one other. Since we couldn't kill Rick first night, I was frustrated, and wanted to be sure of a successful kill. The candidates were people who could play, but not drawing attention in thread. I just thought it would be nice to kill Inky, since he did it to me in Werewolf... But it wasn't a grudge. If I had to kill all the people who'd killed me in past mafia, I'd never get anything else done I prefer to think of it as beautiful symmetry.

I'd never heard of an invincible SK before though. I figured Rick was acting town and had gotten someone's protection night one. Really frustrating, and I'm glad we didn't waste another night trying to kill him. And that sort of information is useless for the scum, since what are we going to say? Tell everybody we couldn't kill him, so we should lynch him?

Maybe the last thing to mention: JimB, we knew you were the tracker early on. Telling WBD the watcher was contacting you I enjoyed asking Sandy repeatedly why the watcher wasn't tracking Dragonator. Good times, good times...

[Peanuts]

Oops, I made the enigma too difficult! It was meant to be solved as 'Beware of Timur'

Not only that I didn't expect an anagram, I am also a real sucker at solving them. So it wouldn't have worked anyway, unless the people I contacted would solve it, Zepher and Sandy. And of course I didn't tell publicly, I'd never shout out anything I'm just told. But I would rather have realized it was an anagram if you would have kept the sentence at three words with the same amount of letters. And it would have been easier to solve it. Just suggesting.

Ok yes I was the town killer. And yeah maybe it was stupid of me not to bring it up on the day when I was convicted but I thought you guys (especially Sandy ) wouldn't believe me yet again just like when I brought up my evidence from Shadows about Draggy and Def. Cause I thought if you guys thought an unblockable follower was bad, try an unblockable killer!

To be honest, I'd rather have believed you to be an unblockable vigilante than an unblockable tracker. Can't say that I wouldn't have trusted you, anyway.

And I'd never ever at all would have belived you you were an x-shot strongarm watcher/tracker.

Hinck you put on a terrific game here! The writing and images were all really top-notch and so funny too! Every day was better than the last and I absolutely loved my death conclusion. I loved to be killed now!

Same with me, my death was hilarious. I guess all Pudgy Petras love guns (or make love with them).