Reality vs. Playability

[Guest Mr. Cameron]

I know its all over but, when lego cared about pirates which aspect do you think they should have focused on more. Reality or Playability and visual appearence. It is obvious to me they did not focus on reality that much, the sails should have been a simple design or just plain white, also the ships could be multi-deck, bsb was almost multi deck. and who has an eye patch, peg leg and hook all at the same time, i am not being critical of lego pirates i love them but i just want to see who agrees with me.

[Scouty]

Both. They should focus on both.

[ZCerberus]

I will take playability and look over accuracy every day of the week and twice on Sundays!

The only problem was that towards the end of the pirate series they went with playability over reality AND looks. The ships were just too colorful and gaudy looking and they started skimping on accessories. I think they are getting much better now at get back into making things look good, have enough accessories and still be playable. A good example I think would be the new castle theme.

[Bonaparte]

Well Mr. Cameron, let me start by welcoming you at our forum!

Lego didn't focus too much on reality when they made the pirate-line.

But the pieces of those sets make it possible for us to make realistic MOCs.

The imperial guards and imperial soldiers however look very realist to me. These figs are very detailed with a shako, epaulettes, backpack.

But the question was "reality vs. playability, which should Lego have focused on more?"...

I'm happy with how they did it. There is a good balance between reality and playability.

[Guest Mr. Cameron]

most of the people in the pirate theme look realistic the only one that doesen't i think is redbeard though i still like him, i just think lego went a little over the top with all three accessories. i think there should have been a one legged pirate with a long john silver type crutch.

[captaintau]

This is a very good question that I think is relevent in the broader context, not just pirates. Short answer is I think both are important and there's a balance. Achieving that balance can be difficult. Also, different builders will want different thinks from their LEGO.

I'm going to start this same conversation in the Death Star area.

[Capn Frank]

if they were to start up the pirate line again TLG could have something similar to how system town has been lately.

For all the smaller pirate sets, they could go for way more playability than realism (or looks :-|| ).

Then as the sets become larger focus more on realism and what AFOLs want.

For instance with town, the fire and police stations. These structures don't have any back walls, and some of their vehicles are barely based on reality.

While the Cafe corner is a beauty. This set is much larger and was built with the assistance of AFOLs i guess.

So IF TLG decides to make system pirates again, they could go something along this route.

Have a UCS frigate with a flushed deck and lots of cannons. Then the ships that are the same size as the BSB or RBR should still have a lot of realism but more playability while the smallest ships could be all playability.

I figure, the more someone is paying for a set, the more serious they are at collecting sets and having more realistic sets, and the cheaper sets are for ppl's kids where the kids don't care much about realism and just want to play.

P

[Mister Phes]

most of the people in the pirate theme look realistic the only one that doesen't i think is redbeard though i still like him, i just think lego went a little over the top with all three accessories. i think there should have been a one legged pirate with a long john silver type crutch.

Not to get too philosophical but I suppose it depends on your perception of what reality is. I can't really envision a LEGO mini-figure being "realistic" because LEGO has its own distinct style of apperance which is far removed from reality.

How would you get a crutch to work on a min-figure though?

[Athos]

I'm not big on playability (I hate all the stupid spring loaded cannons in everything). But I don't know if I want realism, per se, as I'd much prefer the more romanticized fantasy ideas, over a truly historic realistic set.

I think, however, that playability is going to be big goal for Lego and we are stuck with it.

Steve

[Norrington]

Reality: Only if doing something historical Like a "Napoleonic War Leader Pack" (8-0 think of, Horatio Nelson, Earl of St.Vincent, Napoleon, and many more! Oh... I'm drooling allready...), or a ship of the line set.

Playability: Make it as unrealistic and playable as you want, as long as it's well designed and colored (Like Z's Phantom)

[snefroe]

yeah, we've had this discussion before, but oh well...

There is no "reality vs playability" in Lego's strategy. Lego is a toy for kids and therefore has to be recognizable by kids. A pirate ship only has to look like a pirate ship in her basic structures. It's more a stereotype than realistic, like a pirate having an eye patch or a wooden leg. Even the best city sets only look like the real models, they're not perfect copies. still, they're very well designed, giving at least the impression that they look realistic.

Unfortunately, the emphasis is on playability for most sets these days. They add elements that stimulate the playing process, the story telling behind the set, rather than building a set that looks good and is a challenge to build. For them, a pirate ship no longer is a BSB, but a BSB with catapults and a seamonster. Details would have to to go... That's what happened to Mars Mission as well. The viking line was a nice compromise between playability and high quality design, but they decided to dump the line, probably because of the playability factor, sure, there were still dozens of potential sets, but none of them with sufficient playability, so they got rid of the line...

It seems to me that, a few years ago, Lego used to think: "kids are the main market, so we'll produce sets with high playability. if afols want them as well, that's a nice bonus". Now they've changed that strategy, realising that Afols want different sets, but can easily be convinced to buy the kid's sets as well, increasing Lego's sales. so now they're producing several sets more or less especially created for afols, sets with high piece count and great building capacity, and less playability. Maybe Lego thinks that kids will want these sets as well, once they're a little older and are bored with the playability sets. after all, Lego knows very well that many kids disappear from the toy market once they're 14 or so... Caf

[Mister Phes]

yeah, we've had this discussion before, but oh well...

Its kind of like an age old question for LEGO - its one of those topics that will always arise in discussion, but its interesting to read the new perspectives of some of our more recent users.

Lego is a toy for kids and therefore has to be recognizable by kids. A pirate ship only has to look like a pirate ship in her basic structures. It's more a stereotype than realistic, like a pirate having an eye patch or a wooden leg. Even the best city sets only look like the real models, they're not perfect copies. still, they're very well designed, giving at least the impression that they look realistic.

You've elaborated upon my earlier post quite nicely Count Sneffy, but I think I'll go as far to say as no Pirate LEGO ship (or Pirate set for that matter) looks realistic, rather some have a stronger semblance to reality than others.

[Shadows]

Assuming you survive the voyage from the old world to the new one ...

For the sailor, realistic means hard months at sea on worm infested rations of hard tack and questionable water once the harder stuff runs out, if you're lucky enough to get that.

It means sickness and disease, famine and pestulance, and the occasional good days of pillaging, after some of your shipmates have died in the battle, assuming you're not one of them.

On the other end it may be endless days and nights spent watching the horizon for potential threats, always uneasy knowing that an attack could come from any quarter.

We'll just skip life for the 'native' population.

I'll take my pirate theme without realism, thank you very much, same way I'll take my Wild West, my Castle and the rest of my LEGO. Even in battle, it's a lot better life than the real ones they represent, just the way I want it.

[Guest Mr. Cameron]

To answer your crutch question, Mr. Phes you can get either a black or brown cane/short studless pole and attach the same color of hand on it, the minifig won't be able to have a death grip or anything on it but, a small grip nonetheless and also your right lego people can't look realistic, but redbeard is going too far.

If lego were to add another pirate line you would probably see the same thing happen to it as did the castles, you know knights kingdom II, i think this has tainted the castle name. Lego since about '97 has been focusing way too much on playability and there for a while the sets diden't look like anything but stage props and if i'm not mistaken that was one of the main themes. Maybe they should re-release all of the pirate line if they want money thats the way to get it, but there hasen't been a legend set in the longest time they might have even quit that.

[Mister Phes]

Are you sure a new Pirate theme would be anything like Knights Kingdom II? The new 2007 Castle theme seems to be moving away from the outlandish Knights Kingdom designs. Still, the new castle sets are by no means "Classic Castle" but their designs seem to have more thought than the Knights Kingdom sets.

[Guest Mr. Cameron]

well not like kkII but when lego started kk they tried to out match the classic castle but failed big time, i think this could happen if they make new pirates, when they(if they) try to make pirates II or whatever better than classic pirates, if you look at the pirate line in 96 and 97 you can see it already happening. This could be the reason they have not made new pirates maybe they learned from KK and KKII that you can't out match the classic. The new castle sets look alot better than KK and KKII but, as said do not match the classic.

[snefroe]

Are you sure a new Pirate theme would be anything like Knights Kingdom II? The new 2007 Castle theme seems to be moving away from the outlandish Knights Kingdom designs. Still, the new castle sets are by no means "Classic Castle" but their designs seem to have more thought than the Knights Kingdom sets.

my fear is that if we ever get pirates, the ship will be stocked with catapults instead of cannons. sure, city has improved compared to 3-4 years ago, but that is a major lego line, not one of the smaller lines. most of these are still not all that impressive. Pirates would be sharing the same fate as space i'm afraid..

[Mister Phes]

well not like kkII but when lego started kk they tried to out match the classic castle but failed big time, i think this could happen if they make new pirates, when they(if they) try to make pirates II or whatever better than classic pirates, if you look at the pirate line in 96 and 97 you can see it already happening. This could be the reason they have not made new pirates maybe they learned from KK and KKII that you can't out match the classic. The new castle sets look alot better than KK and KKII but, as said do not match the classic.

:'-( I was looking at the reviews of the new Dock sub-theme (or whatever its officially called) and the thing that disturbed me a bit was the generous number of large pieces. I think the same could be said about that new grey castle, it seems it has a lot of castle walls yet its general aesthetic looks closer to that of Classic Castle.

my fear is that if we ever get pirates, the ship will be stocked with catapults instead of cannons. sure, city has improved compared to 3-4 years ago, but that is a major lego line, not one of the smaller lines. most of these are still not all that impressive. Pirates would be sharing the same fate as space i'm afraid..

Yeah, I noticed the Viking ship and Heavy Artillery Wagin had cannons that shot what looked like those Nurf arrows (or whatever they're officially called). That would not look very good on a Pirate ship.

[Captain Roger]

Pirate theme was the first "realistic" Lego theme because minifigs had patch, hooks, moustaches, beards, etc....before that, all minifigs had the classic smile...but they are playable and realistic at the same time!

But Lego minifigs structure isn't realistic, because they haven't human form, but classic realistic soldiers of the 50s aren't playable...

[hans-thegreat]

I know its all over but, when lego cared about pirates which aspect do you think they should have focused on more. Reality or Playability and visual appearence. It is obvious to me they did not focus on reality that much, the sails should have been a simple design or just plain white, also the ships could be multi-deck, bsb was almost multi deck. and who has an eye patch, peg leg and hook all at the same time, i am not being critical of lego pirates i love them but i just want to see who agrees with me.

Well, obviously some one who has and eye patch, peg-leg, and a hook would need to practice their swordsmanship!

[Guest Mr. Cameron]

Well, obviously some one who has and eye patch, peg-leg, and a hook would need to practice their swordsmanship!

exactly, he would be better with a pistol which is why all my peg leg pirates have guns rather than swords

[Norrington]

Pirate theme was the first "realistic" Lego theme because minifigs had patch, hooks, moustaches, beards, etc....before that, all minifigs had the classic smile...but they are playable and realistic at the same time!

But Lego minifigs structure isn't realistic, because they haven't human form, but classic realistic soldiers of the 50s aren't playable...

Ahem... now to nitpick a little. "Realistic"? Hardly. Smileys were a nice generic thing, which wasn't that bad compared to what they could have done. They could have had a blank, meaningless expression like some clone brands I've had the misfortune of purchasing have. "Eyepatches, hooks..." Even though many pirates really lost eyes, eyepatches were extremly rare. Hooks, someone was obviously reading Peter Pan when they thought that up. Peglegs, I don't beleive there is any actual historical record. Pirates would have used crutches, like Long-John did in Treasure Island. Even the Muppet Treasure Island Long-John had a crutch, and not everything in the Muppets is ... "Acurate".

[Berry Syedow]

I'm not big on playability (I hate all the stupid spring loaded cannons in everything). But I don't know if I want realism, per se, as I'd much prefer the more romanticized fantasy ideas, over a truly historic realistic set.

I think, however, that playability is going to be big goal for Lego and we are stuck with it.

Steve

I'd say that the ridiculous surplus of spring loaded contraptions and catapults is an imbalance in the scales of playability vs design rather than accuracy. There are some points of accuracy that I wish had been dealt properly, such as the viking helmets. (I deeply wish that they had created a helmet mold without the holes.) On the large though, my concerns lie in the midst of Playability Vs Design. Too often good design is sacrificed to include two more lousy catapults or whatever lame attempt at playability they decide upon.

Playability doesn't have to be cheesy. Heck, it can be a lot of fun if it's executed properly. TLC seems to be stuck in the mindset that playability equals obvious, ill-conceived design. Take set 5988 for example. It blended playability and design together seamlessly. In today's sets, "playable functions" seem to be added onto sets as an afterthought instead of being a part of the design. But maybe this fact is because most playable features involve a catapult or cannon of some sort. |-/

TLC really should look into more creative means of achieving playability.

Are you sure a new Pirate theme would be anything like Knights Kingdom II? The new 2007 Castle theme seems to be moving away from the outlandish Knights Kingdom designs. Still, the new castle sets are by no means "Classic Castle" but their designs seem to have more thought than the Knights Kingdom sets.

I agree with your assessment, Phes. The majority of sets are being dealt better designs each year. By the time TLC arrives to resurrecting the pirate theme I wouldn't doubt that it will be much better conceived than the sets of Knights' Kingdom. This isn't to suggest that they will approach the excellent designs of yore, but anything's better than +4 Pirate garbage. (I can't urge this enough. ;-))

my fear is that if we ever get pirates, the ship will be stocked with catapults instead of cannons. sure, city has improved compared to 3-4 years ago, but that is a major lego line, not one of the smaller lines. most of these are still not all that impressive. Pirates would be sharing the same fate as space i'm afraid..

Honestly, sne, I think that your fears are unfounded in regards to the pirate theme. TLC already created molds for spring loaded cannons, so I seriously doubt that they would ever dare put catapults (or those dreadful spring loaded technic contraptions) onto System ships. The designers would have to be smoking crack if they went that far. If they ever add either of those things to a future system pirate ship I'll eat my shoe, just for you. :-P

[Mister Phes]

I agree with your assessment, Phes. The majority of sets are being dealt better designs each year. By the time TLC arrives to resurrecting the pirate theme I wouldn't doubt that it will be much better conceived than the sets of Knights' Kingdom. This isn't to suggest that they will approach the excellent designs of yore, but anything's better than +4 Pirate garbage. (I can't urge this enough. ;-))

But having made my assessment, go take a look at the latest space sets...

[Berry Syedow]

But having made my assessment, go take a look at the latest space sets...

Like I said, these things would look too out of place in a pirate theme, no matter how outlandish they already appear in a space theme. I don't think we have too much to worry about. I will hold over that shoe just in case, though...

EDIT: TLC should really take the AFOLs opinions into consideration in the next space theme. If a non-violent theme like city can prosper because of its superb designs then why can't a space theme accomplish the same task? There's an untapped market for peaceful space exploration out there... and just in case, TLC could always create multiple factions so the kids' imaginations could go to work.