Book II - Kaliphlin: Guild sign-up and Discussion

[Gideon]

Ah yes, I recall that convo now, thanks for the reminder. Would have helped if i'd read through the wiki again before posting! Well that sounds cool. How about one more quick round of subject revision (say 5-7 days to allow ppl to respond) before we open enrollments? (Hopefully NM will pop in and let us know what he thinks!) And then i guess we should make a MoH Registrar's thread for tracking progress.

I like that format for adding MoH thread entries - it'd be nice to see that made a standard.

Personally i think the most pressing areas for revision are the inclusion of a military discipline and tweaking of landscape design and geography to avoid duplication. Military discipline could include temporary encampments, permenant fortifications and seige equipment. Landscape design should replace "normal" rocks with "studs up" rocks to avoid confusion. Maybe remove cliffs from Geography (merge with mountains?) and add extreme environments. (lava etc) What do others think?

Having a final round of review sounds good!

I also think we should include a military discipline, maybe have for example a fortification category (wall, tower, gatehouse, encampment, outpost etc) and a tactics category (build different kinds of troops/siege weapons).

I don't think it's a problem if we add tons of sub-categories, as long as it is ok to "graduate" after a certain amount of credits I don't think it's really of any gain to force people to build exactly all sub-categories. Maybe it's enough to have a requirement on "at least X credits from technique-related topics, at least Y credits from content-related topics and a total of at least Z credits, each build can give you at most N credits.". Of course some of the sub-categories could be made mandatory.

How many high-quality builds should we approximately need to complete the program? 15? 20? 30?

If we say for example 20 builds is a good reference and max 3 credits per build, this would mean 60 credits (which of course could be from more than 20 builds if a build is built specifically with demonstrating one technique in mind).

Maybe at least 20 credits for content, at least 20 credits for technique and 20 credits to distribute at will?

Or maybe as previously discussed we should have an "apprentice" level quite easily obtainable, a "bachelor" level first requiring a relatively serious effort, and then have a quite high standard for the "master" title?

If it turns out a lot of builders earns the "master" title fast, then a forth title could be introduced...but I think we can easily start out with three titles at the beginning.

I also think we should be quite strict on the builds in the peer review (especially when multiple credits are claimed for one build), the purpose after all is to force builders to improve our skills and try new things

Edited November 1, 2013 by Gideon

[NiceMarmot]

Sorry I was out of pocket for a week there... My younger one has the week off from school, so we went to Disneyland for a few days. The six year old is now 48+ inches tall, so he can ride all the rides. Completely exhausting. Thought I would be able to check EB in the evenings, but basically came back from dinner every night and collapsed in bed. Did stop by the LEGO store in Downtown Disney, but no sales, and nothing good on the PAB wall.

Anyway, I'll look through all the MoH-related comments over the past few days and get back to you all later today. I think we're really close.

By the way, what should we call the program? I just pulled Master of Historica out of thin air, but perhaps that's not the best name, especially if the highest degree is not "Master" but "Doctor" (or something else). Did we settle on the various degree names?

[soccerkid6]

If you don't mind the opinion of a Mitgardian... Masters of Historica doesn't seem quite right for a Kaliphlin project, unless the project is open to all guilds.

[Gideon]

By the way, what should we call the program? I just pulled Master of Historica out of thin air, but perhaps that's not the best name, especially if the highest degree is not "Master" but "Doctor" (or something else). Did we settle on the various degree names?

Since it's really a Kaliphlin project maybe "Kaliphlin Academy" or something like that would be better?

I think the names for the levels proposed have been something like 1: "Apprentice", 2: "Bachelor", "Guildsman" or "Journeyman", 3: "Master", (4: "Doctor")

So the first and third levels feel settled, but the name of the second and if we should have a fourth level is still something to decide.

This would mean that after the first batch of builds, a member would be able to style himself/herself "Apprentice of the Kaliphlin Academy" or similar, and so on.

If you don't mind the opinion of a Mitgardian... Masters of Historica doesn't seem quite right for a Kaliphlin project, unless the project is open to all guilds.

It was said before that it was open for all members, but run by the University of Petraea (i.e. the Kaliphlin guild). I don't know if that is the final word however, and if it is a bit misleading if we were to use "Historica" in the titles...

Edited November 1, 2013 by Gideon

[Kai NRG]

Actually, (though we haven't discussed it too much) the current set-up allows all GoH members to participate.

Anyway, I went ahead and copied and pasted the list here with a few modifications (red). Under spoilers so the post doesn't get too long.

Architecture

- Five of:

round walls and towers

roofing

(demonstrate mastery of X of the follow Y different roof techniques)

advanced SNOT

(three or more stud directions throughout the build)

wall techniques -- Pick

1

of:

1x1 round plate walls (a la Derfel Cadarn)

SNOTted tile stonework

half-timbered Tudor style

microscale building

(in other words, not landscape)

forced perspective

building in wood

(covered under military)

Landscape Design

- five of:

ordinary rocks and cliffs

- should rocks really be under landscape design? They aren't really designed...

sideways rocks

- same

ordinary and SNOTted rocks combined

a little too redundant?

trees

(demonstrate mastery of at least X of the following Y tree building techniques)

desert scenes

- again, are desert scenes designed?

flowers

or

dense foliage landscaping

bushes/garden

statues

fountains

microscale landscape

roads (maybe this would be better under something else, but I do think it would make a good subject)

Hydrology

- three of:

still water

- this might need some explaining. Is the idea a stagnant pond or something?

waves

flowing water

waterfalls

aqueduct/transporting water/irrigation (or should this/these go in Landscape design?)

Other Techniques

Minifig posing

- I think this should really go under history or military. It's a little odd just hanging out here.

History

a special discipline, wherein you must build 3 (?) MOCs depicting significant events in Kaliphlin's history, at least one of which must be a battle (you make up the events, or use whatever existing history there is). You must also supply a story of suitable length and quality describing the historical event pictured.

Trade and Law

marketplace

manufacturing

One of:

caravan

- could be called overland shipping

shipping

- by sea, presumably?

Two of:

arresting criminals and/or jail

courtroom

governing body (king, council, etc)

Agriculture and Zoology

Three of:

crop farming

raising livestock

fishing

harvest time

logging

brick-built animals

dragons

(do we need this one? - maybe it could be changed into large animals)

Anthropology

Two of:

city scene

village life

countryside scene

tribal scene

life in Kaliphlin

Two of:

life in Avalonia

life in Mitgardia

life in Nocturnus

life in Valyrio

Geography

- Five of:

mountains

- if we take rockwork out of Landscape design we can put it here, but I guess that might mess up our technique and content line

cliffs

oceanside or river scene

forests

swamp

sand

dunes

extreme climate

snow

plains/medow

Military

Pick 2 of the following (fortifications):

Towers

Gatehouse

Wall

Encampment

Tactics:

Siege

Equipment

Special Troops

Battle Scene

Culture

Pick 2 of the following:

Theater

Music

Art

That got posted a little before I wanted it to, sorry!

Anyway, (with the exception of Culture) every discipline has three to five subjects (History and Hydrology have three), which makes forty eight. If a max of three are allowed per build that makes sixteen builds. Maybe master/doctor could be completion of all 11 (I think) diciplines, apprentice at four, and bachelor at seven? If doctor is used for 11, Master could be used for nine as well.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Kai NRG

[SkaForHire]

Sorry, these weeks are just really busy for me, so I have not been commenting...

Some thoughts

Levels -- Apprentice should be achieved for at least three builds. A Bachelor or tradesmen (depending if it is a science/philosophy or engineering set) should come out of three apprentices that are related. IE a Bachelor in Philosophy should be three philosophy related apprentices, history, anthropology, and music for example. (Philosophy could also be the title of an apprenticeship too.) Then a master would be three tradesmen/bachelors, and a doctor would be three related masters, and esteemed professorship would be a person that earned all the doctorates. I wish I could find time to set up a hierarchy tree to demonstrate, but hopefully this made sense the way I wrote it. So basically, you would be building for one of the 50 or so apprenticeships, and could cover up to 4 apprenticeships in one build. Some apprenticeships would be technique based, where some would be theme based. You never really "build" for anything higher than an apprenticeship, unless we want the Bachelors to represent a higher skillset. Really, the Masters and the Doctors would be earned as a "level up" instead of needed to show specific skills for each level.

[NiceMarmot]

I've updated the MoH wiki with a lot of the suggestions over the past week (subjects and other stuff). Currently at 49 subjects, four per MOC, with three possible advanced placement credits. Targeting 12 builds plus advanced placement credits to finish the entire program. With a few more subjects, I'd raise the number of AP credits available. Tell me what you all think.

[Gabe]

Yay, good to see you back NM! Glad to hear you survived Disneyland. I like the changes you have made to the wiki although it seems some terms still need clarifying. Things i don't quite understand atm:

1) what is roof rake? I thought it was just the angle of a roof (eg. a steeply raked roof makes snow slide off the eaves more efficiently), but is it an actual physical part of the roof itself? Also, how is that subject distinct from roofing? Also, do we need to suggest roofing styles for ppl in way we do for walls? eg plates, planking tiles, cheese slopes, round tower roofing (wedge plates etc), thatching, slate tiles (flippers etc) turf roof etc etc

2) What is advanced SNOT? studs at angles other than 90 or 180 degrees to upright? Builds with studs in 3 or more directions? Builds where the majority of the studs are not facing up in the build? (eg. upside down building) We certainly need some more guidelines for ppl here.

3) In the millitary catagory, does the fortification build have to be shown under seige? Might it not be kinder to ppl with smaller parts inventories to seperate seige equipment from permenant fortifications? Of course, ppl could still combine the two catagories in the same moc.

4) With "shipping by sea" (under trade and law), could we include things like river barges (and possibly locks and other river technology) in that? Maybe expand to "terrestial goods transport" and "aquatic goods transport?" Nitpicking now i know... sorry!

5) With "brick-built animals" (under ag and zoology), i'd personally love to see that expanded into minifig scale and larger than minifig scale, but it might be hard on ppl with few parts. However what i'd hate for this catagory to become is an "easy credit" where ppl just pop in a tiny 3-part bird of someone else's design and claim for it. Perhaps we should clarify what is expected of builders in this section?

6) For the "Life in..." (the different guilds) section, given that the course is open to all, should the mandatory build be in the builder's home guild, rather than stipulating that it must be Kaliphlin? Mind you, i'm not against the concept of making all students build in Kaliphlin per se , but perhaps it would make the inter-guild students feel more at home.

On another note, i can relate to both Gideon and Ska's viewpoints when it comes to the title levels and the peer review system. I agree with Ska that titles are more of a "levelling up" thing and that all mocs should be judged at an equal level... competent or not yet competent! I am with Gideon however in wanting to see ppl being really critical of builds that are claiming for credits - if a build ticks all the boxes for it's subjects but is clearly lacking in other areas, i think that should be grounds for asking the builder to re-submit. In fact, the assessment side of the equation perhaps needs further clarification as well, so that all Kali members with voting powers are on the same page and all students have confidence in the process.

Anyway i've got to go now so i'll leave it there for the moment. But i have to say that i'm excited that this project is so close to going live!

[Kai NRG]

I agree with Gabe's comment on roofing. I'm not exactly sure what is meant by roof rake either.

For the wall technique you specify that standard (which is to a certain extent subjective) studs up walls aren't going to cut it, but aren't Tudor walls stud up? I guess they aren't standard? Also, I think one more less piece consuming technique should be thrown in there. For those of us with smaller collections, building either a la DC or SNOT tiles requires quite a few of the same pieces.

Advanced SNOT definitely needs some description, both so the students know what to build and the judges know what they're looking for!

I like the way you've arranged Landscape Design, though IMHO some of those would be better in Geography.

General Building looks better!

I'm with Gabe on the Siege and Fortification... yes, they might go together, but that makes it hard for those who have less bricks!

...6) For the "Life in..." (the different guilds) section, given that the course is open to all, should the mandatory build be in the builder's home guild, rather than stipulating that it must be Kaliphlin? Mind you, i'm not against the concept of making all students build in Kaliphlin per se , but perhaps it would make the inter-guild students feel more at home...

Nah, I think we should leave that. It's a small price to pay for being able to study in our renown university!

[Gabe]

Haha i was hoping to get picked for Nocturnus in challenge I, as i had a pretty cool story all mapped out for that faction... so of course i get picked for Black Spire. Lol, back to the drawing board i guess... starting with a few new characters!

[ZCerberus]

Haha i was hoping to get picked for Nocturnus in challenge I, as i had a pretty cool story all mapped out for that faction... so of course i get picked for Black Spire. Lol, back to the drawing board i guess... starting with a few new characters!

It was all about trying to balance the sides man. I am actually in a way glad you got the side you "didn't" want... should make it more interesting!

[Gideon]

It was all about trying to balance the sides man. I am actually in a way glad you got the side you "didn't" want... should make it more interesting!

I have to reluctantly agree, ending up on the "wrong" side has forced me out of my confort zone as well. Looking forward to building for the real dark side of Nocturnus!

Regarding the challenge btw, are there any Black Spire Kaliphlins who want to share a PM conversation to discuss ideas and later WIPs?

[ZCerberus]

Well there is a person who may also be a MOD who can host a very large PM conversation, would you guys be interested in being in on a very large PM with your faction?

[Infernum]

@ ZC: One for each team would be very nice! As long as you don't go leaking our strategies.

[Gideon]

Well there is a person who may also be a MOD who can host a very large PM conversation, would you guys be interested in being in on a very large PM with your faction?

Absolutely!

[gedren_y]

I have to reluctantly agree, ending up on the "wrong" side has forced me out of my confort zone as well. Looking forward to building for the real dark side of Nocturnus!

Regarding the challenge btw, are there any Black Spire Kaliphlins who want to share a PM conversation to discuss ideas and later WIPs?

I'm in. I have a specific minifig head I want to use for some of my Black Spire figs. I might be able to do Lord Raavage if I get his crown and armor. But I think his crown actually breaks one of the contest rules.

[Lord Vladivus]

I'm in. I have a specific minifig head I want to use for some of my Black Spire figs. I might be able to do Lord Raavage if I get his crown and armor. But I think his crown actually breaks one of the contest rules.

Isn't it just a backwards SW Zabrak (either Maul or Opress) headpiece? Looks like some clever photography angles, but I don't think it breaks the rules.

[Mr Breden]

Well there is a person who may also be a MOD who can host a very large PM conversation, would you guys be interested in being in on a very large PM with your faction?

Yes, I think that would be very usefull

[gedren_y]

Isn't it just a backwards SW Zabrak (either Maul or Opress) headpiece? Looks like some clever photography angles, but I don't think it breaks the rules.

My point was that the piece has no printing on it. The only one that TLG makes without the printing is medium dark flesh.

If we might be allowed to remove printing from or paint our minifigs only, I have a couple of figs I might be able to use. I also have some custom (non-LEGO) weapons that before I use will require paint, but I don't plan to use them for the Challenge.

[Lord Vladivus]

My point was that the piece has no printing on it. The only one that TLG makes without the printing is medium dark flesh.

If we might be allowed to remove printing from or paint our minifigs only, I have a couple of figs I might be able to use. I also have some custom (non-LEGO) weapons that before I use will require paint, but I don't plan to use them for the Challenge.

There is printing- I think it's on backwards, so the printing is at the back- the printing on them is only at the front of the headpiece, so with careful photography, you don't see the printing, and thus it appears to be without printing. Doing it like that would adhere to the rules, so it's doable. Just my two pence, I could be wrong!

[SSchmidt]

I got in on the Spire as well, and must say I am quite excited! This will serve as a great business opportunity for Schmidt, Logar, and Lofgar Their army has already expanded to a mercenary force of Kaliphlinites. I need to post some pictures of them soon!

[Gabe]

It was all about trying to balance the sides man. I am actually in a way glad you got the side you "didn't" want... should make it more interesting!

Oh absoloutly, i'm not unhappy with my posting at all, sorry if i gave that impression! Just a cautionary tale about anticpating the outcome of a coin toss. Anyway i had a high old time butchering minifigs for new characters last night, so i'm already in the Spire frame of mind.

Oh and i'd love to be involved in a large Spire PM to discuss ideas and stuff, count me in!

[NiceMarmot]

Changes made to the wiki to reflect the above discussion.

1) what is roof rake? I thought it was just the angle of a roof (eg. a steeply raked roof makes snow slide off the eaves more efficiently), but is it an actual physical part of the roof itself? Also, how is that subject distinct from roofing? Also, do we need to suggest roofing styles for ppl in way we do for walls? eg plates, planking tiles, cheese slopes, round tower roofing (wedge plates etc), thatching, slate tiles (flippers etc) turf roof etc etc

I provided examples of roof rakes and also links to lists of roofing techniques. I wanted to keep the roof rake a separate subject so that everyone has to do one. I think it's a very valuable skill, and adds a lot to MOCs when people do a good one.

2) What is advanced SNOT? studs at angles other than 90 or 180 degrees to upright? Builds with studs in 3 or more directions? Builds where the majority of the studs are not facing up in the build? (eg. upside down building) We certainly need some more guidelines for ppl here.

I don't really know. It's one of those things where you know it when you see it. I added the three-directions-studs comment to the wiki, but we could really use a good description of this. Anyone have any ideas?

3) In the millitary catagory, does the fortification build have to be shown under seige? Might it not be kinder to ppl with smaller parts inventories to seperate seige equipment from permenant fortifications? Of course, ppl could still combine the two catagories in the same moc.

Good idea. Separated.

4) With "shipping by sea" (under trade and law), could we include things like river barges (and possibly locks and other river technology) in that? Maybe expand to "terrestial goods transport" and "aquatic goods transport?" Nitpicking now i know... sorry!

Changed them to shipping by land and shipping by sea/water

5) With "brick-built animals" (under ag and zoology), i'd personally love to see that expanded into minifig scale and larger than minifig scale, but it might be hard on ppl with few parts. However what i'd hate for this catagory to become is an "easy credit" where ppl just pop in a tiny 3-part bird of someone else's design and claim for it. Perhaps we should clarify what is expected of builders in this section?

Not sure I nailed this yet, but I changed it to "three or more different brick-built animals, birds, or fish, using advanced or innovative techniques". Happy to change the wording some more to make it clearer.

6) For the "Life in..." (the different guilds) section, given that the course is open to all, should the mandatory build be in the builder's home guild, rather than stipulating that it must be Kaliphlin? Mind you, i'm not against the concept of making all students build in Kaliphlin per se , but perhaps it would make the inter-guild students feel more at home.

I agree with Kai. If you're taking courses in Petraea, you've got to build at least one Kaliphlin build!

On another note, i can relate to both Gideon and Ska's viewpoints when it comes to the title levels and the peer review system. I agree with Ska that titles are more of a "levelling up" thing and that all mocs should be judged at an equal level... competent or not yet competent!

I agree. Hopefully that's clearer now in the discussion of titles. Let me know if I can make that clearer, or if I should change it at all. Ska -- how does it look to you?

I am with Gideon however in wanting to see ppl being really critical of builds that are claiming for credits - if a build ticks all the boxes for it's subjects but is clearly lacking in other areas, i think that should be grounds for asking the builder to re-submit. In fact, the assessment side of the equation perhaps needs further clarification as well, so that all Kali members with voting powers are on the same page and all students have confidence in the process.

Agreed. Perhaps we need a bit more explanation of this. There's a question farther down on the page about this; I'm happy to expand or modify the answer to it.

For the wall technique you specify that standard (which is to a certain extent subjective) studs up walls aren't going to cut it, but aren't Tudor walls stud up? I guess they aren't standard? Also, I think one more less piece consuming technique should be thrown in there. For those of us with smaller collections, building either a la DC or SNOT tiles requires quite a few of the same pieces.

Tudor walls aren't really standard, so they're ok. The wiki doesn't actually specify what the possible wall techniques are; it just lists a few possibilities. If anyone has a few more examples, I'm happy to add them to the list.

Advanced SNOT definitely needs some description, both so the students know what to build and the judges know what they're looking for!

Got any ideas?

What do you all think of 52 subjects, with four subjects max per build, and four possible advanced placement credits. That means someone would have a minimum of 12 builds to complete the entire program. Does that sound about right?

At this point, we're really close. Here's what's left (besides the stuff discussed above):

• Add two more subjects if we want to have 52 of them
  
• Finalize the rules
  
• Name the program. Should we stick with "Master of Historica"? Or "Kaliphlin Building Academy"? "Historica Building Curriculum"? "Building Mastery Program"? "Building Proficiency Program"? Other ideas?
  
• Get Ska to verify that we can award a badge (to be designed later) to anyone who completes the full course of study
  
• I want to produce an image of the university seal to go with the post
  
• Produce a small build to go with the announcement? Perhaps a professor lecturing? Would be cool, but unfortunately this would slow down the launch, especially if I had to do it, as work is really busy now.
  
• Get Ska's approval
  
• Create program thread and tracking thread!
  

Edited November 3, 2013 by NiceMarmot

[NiceMarmot]

@Ska -- when's your wedding? And are you all registered anywhere?

[SkaForHire]

Nov 9th, Target and something else but I am not sure where something else is! haha.