Jurgen's Lil Devil up on Ebay

[Meatman]

No credit is being given to Jurgen for the model or instructions. LINK

[Sariel]

How typical.

[Meatman]

"This car is made of 100% Lego parts and is in great condition. I did not spare any expense on the parts, the electric components and the tires alone cost more than $150. Overall the car turned out to be a great experience as it will teach you some basic things about cars while it makes a great model to display and play with."

[JunkstyleGio]

Let's wait and see what Jurgen has to say about this

[Nazgarot]

I asked him if he had designed it by himself, and got this answer:

"Dear nazgarot,

I designed it with a person that I know.

- rower_24"

Hes hopping around the truth like it was a dangerous snake... He never say that he designed it him self in the add, but this is close to a lie (except if he really is telling the truth, but I doubt it). I also asked if he would be willing to tell me who he designed it with. I said I've seen similar cars on the net, and was wondering if it would be worth the money to buy this, or if it was possible to download the instructions and build it with the parts i've got...

I'm not really expecting an answer, but we'll see...

-ED-

EDIT: He actually answered:

"Dear nazgarot,

I can't give out a name as that is his decision. You're more than welcome to try to build your own, designing it took forever, along with sourcing the parts which is extremely difficult in it's own regard. If you try to build your own, it takes much, much more time than even I thought. Sourcing parts was also very difficult and expensive with shipping from so many sources.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

- rower_24"

Edited July 28, 2011 by Nazgarot

[Erik Leppen]

On EBay:

Item location: CA, United States

Jurgen's profile:

Location: The Netherlands

Suspicious.

I feel kind of bad (given this is not Jurgen's own initiative, which i think is safe to assume)). I wouldn't know what I could do about things like this. I have reported an EBay fraud before but all I got was an e-mail saying that I was to give proof of my claim, when I already gave a link to the original... Edit: by the way, how do you prove plagiraism? How do you prove that no communication between this person and Jurgen has taken place?

Edited July 28, 2011 by Erik Leppen

[Nazgarot]

I actually heard back from him again...

I sent this message:

"Hi again,

I take it you aren't going to admit it's Jurgen's "Lil Devil" you are selling... I'll have to report this to e-bay.

-Naz-"

And he answered:

"Dear nazgarot,

Hey,

I have taken some of his design but it has been modified so they are actually not the same. As I said, I worked with a friend on this unique design. While it may appear similar to another design, I can guarantee you that it is not the same. Furthermore, feel free to report it to eBay, I'm not sure what you would be accusing me of.

Thanks again for the design and good luck with your build!

- rower_24"

So in the end he is admitting it's Jurgens design, and that Jurgen is not his friend who helped design this...

I don't think it will help reporting him to e-bay, but I'll do it anyway. Maybe it helps if they get several reports.

[Sokratesz]

Time for more people to threaten him to inform ebay of copyright infringement or something. I know I just did.

[Sokratesz]

Me > You could at least give credit to the designed of this car.

Him > Thanks for your input. The design is modified.

Me > Not in a way that sets it apart from the model that the original creator designed. I must be..the fifth at least to tell you that, and I will be taking action to involve Ebay in this unless you modify the auction to explicitly state that this is someone elses design.

Him > I improved upon the basic concept so there are differences, I apologize that you do not agree with that. You also are incorrect with your estimate that you are the fifth to speak with me about this.

I have reviewed all of eBay's policies and I have not violated any of them so I'm not exactly sure how you would go about this.

Furthermore, I don't understand what the issue is as I am not taking credit for the design and am selling the parts needed to make this model. I am not selling the instructions as stated, but rather the parts or the model as a whole.

I will modify the listing to appease you and I understand your concern and claims but they are not justified.

Me > I have proof of communication of at least three other people who told you what I did so do not deny that.

In fact, you are taking credit for the design because you mentioned that you 'designed it with a friend'.

If you modify the listing as I mentioned earlier I would be satisfied. It's just a matter of who gets credit for what, I have no problem with you selling the model in itself

We shall see...

[Paul Boratko]

I actually had seen this auction a few days and was hesitant to post about it as not to stir up anything and was hoping the auction would end and the seller would get frustrated and give up on selling Jurgen Krooshoop's design...

It is quite unfortunate to see things like this happen, but the reality is that there really isn't anything that can be done about it as far as the actual model goes... However, if someone is also selling or gaining profits from marked or stamped instructions, then you may be able to take some legal action against the seller...

There obviously are not many changes in the so called "Modification" of this model in question to call it someone's own design where as they should not have to at least credit Jurgen for the work... In the past 4 years there have been 9 people(At least 9 that I had discovered or was notified about) scattered from all over the world that have sold something on Ebay that I designed (without my recognition) and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it other than complain, which didn't matter anyways because many times there was a language barrier between the seller and myself, so it got to the point where I stopped caring and just came to the conclusion that it is best to just accept that someone thinks your work was good enough to possibly profit from...

What this all comes down to is a morality issue more so than a legal one...

Edited July 28, 2011 by Paul Boratko

[Nazgarot]

I actually had seen this auction a few days and was hesitant to post about it as not to stir up anything and was hoping the auction would end and the seller would get frustrated and give up on selling Jurgen Krooshoop's design...

It is quite unfortunate to see things like this happen, but the reality is that there really isn't anything that can be done about it as far as the actual model goes... However, if someone is also selling or gaining profits from marked or stamped instructions, then you may be able to take some legal action against the seller...

There obviously are not many changes in the so called "Modification" of this model in question to call it someone's own design where as they should not have to at least credit Jurgen for the work... In the past 4 years there have been 9 people(At least 9 that I had discovered or was notified about) scattered from all over the world that have sold something on Ebay that I designed (without my recognition) and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it other than complain, which didn't matter anyways because many times there was a language barrier between the seller and myself, so it got to the point where I stopped caring and just came to the conclusion that it is best to just accept that someone thinks your work was good enough to possibly profit from...

What this all comes down to is a morality issue more so than a legal one...

Agreed. But that doesn't mean we should not care. Just some soft reminders of who's work it actually is might be enough to make this guy think twice before doing it again.

-ED-

[dunamis]

Well, I'm jumping on this as well. I send the guy a question in Ebay about it too.

I'll let you know if he responds.

[Jurgen Krooshoop]

First of all, I'm not the friend the seller's talking about. I've never given anyone permission to sell either my models or my instructions. The only differences I can see between his model & mine are some construction errors in his version, making the car uglier.

But as Paul allready stated, there's really nothing I can do about it. This won't prevent me from making more building instructions though. I've accepted the fact the other people will try to make a profit of it. And if somebody thinks it'll make one feel better taking advantage from someone else's work, than he/she must do so. But this doesn't mean I think it's okay, on the contrary.

I don't want to worry to much about these things, but I couldn't resist sending the seller (Rover_24) a message. I sent him this:

Hi rover_24,

You are selling a Lego-model that I designed and claim that you designed it with a friend. This is incorrect. You know this just as well as I do that you stole my design, so there's no use denying that.

You will do the following things:

1. State my name as designer AND

2. Make clear that building instructions for this model are available for free on my website AND

3. include a link to my website http://www.jurgenstechniccorner.com

Jurgen

Let's see what happens....

[dunamis]

Jurgen - I'm glad you contacted him. He needs to know what he is doing is wrong.

FYI, here is the response he gave back to me when I flat out asked him if this was Jurgen's Little Devil:

It is based upon the design, yes. I changed some of the gearing, attachment points, and other details. There's quite a few changes but the basic concept is the same. They're more for aesthetic issues and holding everything together better.

Anyway, let us know if he responds.

[DLuders]

Well, as of this instant, there are no bids for the US $399.99 Little Devil on eBay, with 1 day 5 hours to go. That's a lot of money. I built Jurgen's model using parts from Bricklink, and I estimate that I spent 1/2 that amount. I bet you that this blatant copy does not sell at all.

[Jurgen Krooshoop]

This is his reply to my message:

Beste rhodeslover1,

I previously changed the description to fit what others have requested, I take no credit for designing it.

Furthermore I don't understand why everyone is so upset, no where in there do I take credit for it and the instructions are free online.

Thanks!

[Paul Boratko]

This is his reply to my message:

Beste rhodeslover1,

I previously changed the description to fit what others have requested, I take no credit for designing it.

Furthermore I don't understand why everyone is so upset, no where in there do I take credit for it and the instructions are free online.

Thanks!

All I see changed in the description is this...

The set itself was modified from a previous design and as it was built, modified to look and work better. The parts were sourced, purchased, and then assembled to check performance. The outcome exceeded expectations and is quite remarkable.

So basically all this guy did was alter the description to to say that he improved some design to look and work better, but still doesn't credit you anywhere...? Wow... That is now like slapping you across the face twice....

Like I said before Jurgen, just be proud that someone felt your design was good enough to profit from..

Edited July 30, 2011 by Paul Boratko

[dolittle]

Hi,

Just do this:

1) Open the item on ebay

2) Locate the "Report Item"

3) In there select Copyright infringement (they are most careful with those)

4) Then select counterfeit/replica

5) In the reference box you will be shown, paste a link to this forum

With enough of these eBay is bound to notice

With my rating of over 500 (positive feedback), they are bound to at least give it a look :)

If enough do it as well, it would steer enough to get the bid to at least suspended mode

[Jurgen Krooshoop]

My reply to Rover_24 was the following:

Hi Rover_24,

The problem is that you don't give any credit to the original designer of the model: me. If I didn't spend over 50 hours devellopping the model and making the building-instructions, you wouldn't have been able to sell this item at all.

I don't have a problem with you selling the car, but for me it's very important that my models are available to as many people as possible. That's why I provide the building instructions for free on my website and why it should be clear that the building instructions can be downloaded from my website.

So pleasse, mention my name and website in your add, and then I'll leave you alone.

Jurgen

[PerryMakes]

Add my support to the list. Contacted both eBay with a report and the seller... but I took a very different approach, in hopes of getting as much information as possible - something that people are reluctant to give when they think you are "out to get them." Here's my email to him and his response:

--------------------------

Dear rower_24,

I'd like to know, before dropping 4 bills on this, what are the features you've changed to make it better than Jergen's Lil' Devil? Everyone's complaining that you stole his design, but what they don't understand is that you've CHANGED it... duh! So it's obviously not the same thing as what he designed... so it's a NEW product. Some people just don't get it. But I would like to know what I'm going to be getting that's better.

Thanks in advance and Cheers.

--------------------------

Could you link me to the thread where everyone is complaining about it?

To be honest I have not changed much, I have added some attachments to hold everything together better and some color schemes. I removed some parts that I felt were unnecessary and simply increased the weight.

There was probably a change of about 100 parts or so. The main thing that you're paying for is the time to put it all together and the time it took to source all of the parts. Let me know if you have further questions.

- rower_24

--------------------------

From his response I'd say that it's a pretty cut-and-dry instance of thievery. Please excuse the method I had to take in order to get a truthful response ;)

Cheers ~ Perry

EDIT: I should add that I -did not- send a link to this discussion. The fact that he's unaware of this says two thing... 1) he's a TERRIBLE Googler 2) he's not aware of and not part of the general/common community built around this hobby. Probably a good thing :)

Edited August 1, 2011 by PerryMakes

[DLuders]

Well, there were no bids on the Little Devil clone, so the seller got what he deserved -- nothing.

[Brickend]

It's not thievery, it's not a counterfeit or breach of copyright.

If the value of the loose Lego is static, then the value of the assembled model comes from time - he has taken other's time and exploited it, but that is not a crime. The lack of attribution is disrespectful, but beyond that he is entitled to do what he is doing.

[DLuders]

Here is a good Wikipedia article about "Moral rights (copyright law)," and how Moral Rights vary throughout the world.

Jurgen Krooshoop was very gracious in this matter. All the eBay seller had to do was ACKNOWLEDGE in his auction that Jurgen was the designer, "but no" the seller wouldn't even do that. What an ingrate. I'm glad that nobody bid on that blatant copy of Jurgen's work.

[JunkstyleGio]

Making a buck or two ( or over a 100) is one thing. But not giving credit to the original builder is too bad.

I've got some great Moc's by others here on display. Some where build by the original designers and some of them were build by me. There is one thing I would never do: and that is sell them... (And even more saying they were of my own design...)

It's a good thing this seller didn't get what he wanted and let's hope he learned his lesson!

Edited August 1, 2011 by JunkstyleGio

[5150 Lego]

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but if you don't want these type of things happening, then it probably isn't the best idea to post free instructions on line.

Yes, I understand the Jurgen put alot of time and effort in the design as well as building instructions on line on his web site. Its obvious that many are grateful for his work. But at the same time, not everyone is going to be honest and with free instructions roaming around, this type of thing is bound to happen. Is it wrong not to give the original designer credit? Sure. Is what this guy doing illegal? Unless Jurgen has some kind of copy right to the design (don't know if that's possible considering its built with patented Lego pieces) its 100% legal.