Lego System Petition

[SimpleSDK]

A lot of us remember the fun we had with our old Lego sets from over 5 years ago, when the name was still the Lego System on the boxes. Now, the Lego Group just made it say Lego. It didn't really matter about the name, but the feel of the Lego System themes were there and belonged there.

What I'm getting at, is that the feel of the new themes and the whole new Lego style has changed and doesn't even feel like some Lego's are even Lego's anymore. The old sets from the system had the nice minifig faces, and bricks, and themes, and everything was awesome... the monorails, the trains, the old UFO themes and Adventurers were all great. Now, I don't like Lego's as much anymore because the the way that the company has changed the whole thing around.

If you could, I'd appreciate it if you could sign this petition at the link below and if the goal is reached sometime, I would send it to the Lego Group. I'm not saying that them bringing back the old themes would work, but let them know that we like the older sets more than the newer ones. Example (Rock Raiders is much better than the Power Miners)

The Lego System Petition

Thank you.

- Alec

[davee123]

A lot of us remember the fun we had with our old Lego sets from over 5 years ago, [...] the feel of the new themes and the whole new Lego style has changed

Welcome to old age :)

I remember similar requests from hobbyists back in the late 1990's, when I joined the hobby. Actually, in reading a lot of the ATL/RTL posts from 1993-1998 (before I was aware of AFOLs), it seems like most hobbyists seemed to get miffed at the style change starting around 1996 or 1997. Prior to then, I didn't see too much complaining.

People used to complain that LEGO made a wrong turn when they started including "instructions" with their kits. Blasphemy! Other fans have complained about "minifig scale" resulting in non-realistic and incomplete buildings. People in 1997 were complaining about juniorization, and LEGO becoming too specialized. In 2004 they complained about the color change. Heck, we're told that people complained about the plastic change from CA to ABS back in 1963!

LEGO is always changing. They have a pretty good handle on what kids want, and unfortunately, what kids want isn't what older fans want.

the old UFO themes and Adventurers were all great. [...] Rock Raiders is much better than the Power Miners)

Adventurers, loved them. UFO? Guh. I wasn't too keen on the UFO lineup except the body armor of the aliens. There were some handy pieces in there, but generally ugly designs. And 1998's Insectoids took the cake for worst space-theme ever in my book. Rock Raiders I actually liked, other than the horrid level of juniorization. But most hobbyists at the time couldn't stand Rock Raiders with their bizarro color scheme.

Anyway, it's interesting as someone that was an adult hobbyist in the late 1990's to watch new hobbyists joining the fray that were kids when I was just getting serious about LEGO. I always had a hard time imagining how kids could be nostalgic for things like Insectoids, Life on Mars, or Fright Knights. But hey, I'm starting to see it pop up now and again-- amazing! It'll be interesting in another 10 years or so to see which lines from today are striking chords with kids and getting them nostalgic for good 'ol 2011 sets!

DaveE

[Legoist]

A lot of us remember the fun we had with our old Lego sets from over 5 years ago, when the name was still the Lego System on the boxes. Now, the Lego Group just made it say Lego. It didn't really matter about the name, but the feel of the Lego System themes were there and belonged there.

What I'm getting at, is that the feel of the new themes and the whole new Lego style has changed and doesn't even feel like some Lego's are even Lego's anymore. The old sets from the system had the nice minifig faces, and bricks, and themes, and everything was awesome... the monorails, the trains, the old UFO themes and Adventurers were all great. Now, I don't like Lego's as much anymore because the the way that the company has changed the whole thing around.

If you could, I'd appreciate it if you could sign this petition at the link below and if the goal is reached sometime, I would send it to the Lego Group. I'm not saying that them bringing back the old themes would work, but let them know that we like the older sets more than the newer ones. Example (Rock Raiders is much better than the Power Miners)

The Lego System Petition

Thank you.

- Alec

It would be interesting to know your age, because almost all of us at a certain point have been into the "Lego is not as good as it used to be" phase For example around 20-25 years old a lot of people have a "nostalgia crisis" when they start missing childhood stuff that they hastily dismissed in their teenager years, and now they look back and overestimate its objective value.

I am 35, so for my own nostalgia tells me Lego were best in the 80s. But when I objectively look at the design and the variety of the sets, I have to admit that the best era of Lego is NOW. Sure there are some themes which are hideous from my point of view, namely those more children oriented (e.g. Power Miners, NinjaGo, ToyStory and now Alien conquest), but you have to judge the Lego offer by looking only at what YOU prefer, don't look at ALL themes available, which by the way are so many that no one can possibly be interested in all of them. Just think of what YOU want from Lego and ignore themes that are just since the start out of your interest range, and you'll still find plenty of stuff, and then judge only that stuff.

For example, as an AFOL I shun all the action-oriented themes, I just don't even look at them unless for parts useful in MOCing (actually, almost all I buy is for MOCing anyway). So to me it's irrelevant if the SpongeBob theme sucked hard like it fact it did, because to me it's just supposed to suck But I look at the last 3-4 years of the City theme and it's better than it has ever been before, and so are the StarWars theme, the Creator theme, the Kingdoms theme (except the castles themselves perhaps), the Train theme, the modular buildings...

[Aanchir]

In general, I'm also in the camp that prefers modern-day LEGO designs to those of the 90s. The 90s was my childhood, and I'll admit that I loved many of the sets from that era. But overall LEGO has undergone many improvements since then. The Hero Factory theme far outdoes most Throwbots or BIONICLE sets. Action themes like Power Miners and Atlantis have more interesting functions and more refined builds than Time Cruisers or Rock Raiders. City sets today, including "offshoots" like the modular buildings, are far, far more interesting than Town sets of the late 90s, using clever SNOT techniques and tastefully-stickered parts rather than simple builds and overspecialized printed vehicle hoods or grilles. Even the Bricks & More theme, as simple as it is, has more reasonable selections of basic bricks and more impressive "model ideas" than the Free Style theme.

It's possible that this mindset I have owes itself in part to the fact that I never had a dark age. Instead, I was watching the changes in LEGO sets firsthand from my childhood to adulthood, and the closest thing I ever had to a dark age was when BIONICLE sets began to take up most of my LEGO budget and I stopped purchasing Star Wars sets. Overall, LEGO set designs have been on a path of steady improvement in many ways, even if occasional sacrifices had to be made for those improvements to emerge. And LEGO set designers have demonstrated that they will not let themselves be limited by the loss of older parts or building styles-- instead, they use newer parts and techniques in amazingly innovative ways.

[mikey]

I am going to firstly say that I do think Lego could pay a bit more attention to quality control now. There are numerous issues with Collectible Minifig's, Colour Control, and Part Quality that potentially they could be dealing with better. Either by fixing them properly (the best option), or by at least saying "we know this is not correct, we are trying to make it better".

...

I am 35, so for my own nostalgia tells me Lego were best in the 80s. But when I objectively look at the design and the variety of the sets, I have to admit that the best era of Lego is NOW.

...

I totally agree, when I started to buy Lego again I started with a few modern sets that caught my eye one day, and considered that I would buy my favorite childhood sets as well (as my childhood collection was passed out on to my nieces and nephews). But when I really looked at the sets that I played with so much then, I realised that they are nothing special. When I see pictures of them they make me smile, and I remember that I played with them, but I do not think that I need to own them. I would rather spend my money on contemporary sets, than spend on reacquiring classic sets.

I would have much rather been a kid now and having modern Lego to play with. There is so much more choice, better designs, the sets have more pieces, they have better colours, the minifig's have faces. As a child I would have killed for Star Wars Lego, instead I made do with blocky space ships made from primary coloured bricks and piloted by a nondescript smiley face minifig. I'm not at all saying that I didn't love playing with Lego, but that kids (and us AFOL's) now have much better Lego to play with than in the 80's.

[lightningtiger]

From someone who had Legotown in the late 70's and early 80's and then burst back on the scene in the late 00's I say Lego has hit it's peaks and it's troughs too ! The BAD times late 90's will little that was good and let MB catch up.....but now it's Lego setting the trends again.

I believe the term system is the brick locking mechanism so even castle and space are system in my books.

Brick On !

[Siegfried]

Example (Rock Raiders is much better than the Power Miners)

Not for me, even the new rockmonster is way superior. (Yes, I have both.) But most of all the builds were inferior and they consisted for the most part of pieces like...

The only thing I did like was the chrome drill... but that pales in comparison to the mighty counter-rotating drill in 8960.

But when I objectively look at the design and the variety of the sets, I have to admit that the best era of Lego is NOW.

Yeah. Old-age-goggles off!

[kibosh]

I'll start with my age as a frame of reference here. I'll turn 40 this summer, and IMHO, Lego today is at it's high point for me. The modular city sets are brilliant. Star Wars is amazing for young boys. (My son is 9). My 5 year old daughter LOVES the collectible minifigures, and builds with her brother daily. We go to the Lego store monthly to look and pick up odds and ends. I can't wait for the Cars sets. I already have the Queen Anne's Revenge, and look forward to the Black pearl.

Yes, I love my childhood sets like the Galaxy Explorer, and they make me smile every time I see pictures of them. I just think the color palette and parts selections are better today. And the set designs are pretty good, too.

The low point? The late 90's when I came out of my Dark Age. Insectoids? Blech. UFO? No thanks. I have an entire bin STUFFED with mostly useless brick junior pieces.

The worst part about Lego today? My credit card statements.

[Legoless]

Bottom line is that Lego is in an extremely competitive market. Lego needs to continually change its product range in order to stay relevent and to satisfy the demands of its principal vendors, eg Toys'r'Us, etc.

New products interest and excite consumers (look at the reaction from AFOLs to new sets on this site) and enable Lego to develop new concepts (and useful parts, colours, etc). Once a child (the main demographic Lego targets) has collected all the sets in a collection there may be less incentive for that child (or parents) to buy more.

I think TLG has been quite clever, actually, in maintaining its core themes over the years- for example Pirates, by introducing the PotC franchised sets. My problem with PotC is perhaps that the child will only see those sets in terms of trying to represent scenes from the film, wheras previous Pirate sets may have been more of a blank canvas for the child to use his own imagination as to the character of the pirates that he is playing with. Nevertheless, that is the reality of the modern toy industry- got to keep relevent to what the kids want. If TLG goes through a bad patch of 2-3 years it could be curtains (as it very nearly was a few years back).

I think Lego is still designing inspiring sets that appeal to their target audience (and the sales prove this). The Creator line is especially good- it uses mostly basic components and encourages the child to 'brick build' much of the content- eg animals, barbeque, etc, much like we had to in the 1980's when there was nothing like the variety of components on offer (let alone the wonderful colour palette).

[Pingles]

These responses have been fascinating reading. Great perspective. My dark age was 30+ years so I think I was never "serious" enough to have a preference. I loved it when I was a pre-teen and I love it now.

[davee123]

[...] the best era of Lego is NOW.

I think certain aspects of LEGO are at their best right now, but not all... I'd probably break it down like this:

Element quality

Probably at its best in the 1973-1998 ballpark.

Juniorization

There's a good mix in the current sets (some good, some bad), but I'd say the best era was probably around 1978-1989. It only started getting noticeably bad in 1997 (Town Jr).

Detail Level

We're definitely at the peak right now. There are a wide range of really wonderful elements today, and fantastic SNOT and detail pieces that allow for truly amazing creations.

Theme Specificity

Ok, lemme explain what I mean by that-- basically, how much room is there for imagination within the scope of an individual theme? Sets from the 1960's didn't even have people-- there's plenty of room for imagination, maybe even too MUCH room. Sets in the 1980's by and large had "factions" (Black Falcons/Crusaders, and different color spacemen), but they weren't necessarily "good" or "evil". Then in the late 80's-mid-90's, we got distinctly "good/evil" factions, but with generic minifigures. And later, we got themes where *EVERY* single character was defined for us (the worst case offhand being Knight's Kingdom where there were exactly 8 characters and no generic "extras").

Anyway, things have gotten more and more specific to individual themes, and made less and less room for imagination. Personally, I think the peak for that was probably in the 1987-1996 timeframe-- I liked having subthemes that were loosely defined in terms of being evil or good, but didn't go so far to derive all the individual characters for us.

Product Diversity

We're DEFINITELY at the peak right now. LEGO has broadened its reach to extend all the way to AFOLs, and everything in between.

Product Design

Again, I think you could make a case that LEGO's at the top of its game right now. The themes it's coming up with are an excellent fit to the market, they're pretty original, and are mostly quite appealing.

---

Anyway, when I try to look at it objectively, that's what I come up with. Some aspects are at their peak right now, others were at their peak back a long time ago.

DaveE

[Legoist]

I think certain aspects of LEGO are at their best right now, but not all... I'd probably break it down like this:

Good analysis!

Tho I don't understand what you mean with "element quality", do you mean the currently made parts are not the best in terms of durability/robustness? Or design-wise because they are not always very reusable (but that overlaps with juniorization)? Or something else?

Also I don't agree very much with the "theme specificity" as being a negative quality. For instance I definitely preferred the classic space theme of exploration with no enemies and no factions, and personally I think that always insisting on good guys vs bad guys/monsters/alien is even educationally questionable (it kinds of teaches the dread "black & white world" scheme that on one hand can be a fine simplification for children, but at a certain point of age it should be left behind for a more realistic view of the world...), but anyway KFOLs will play good vs evil games and battles and accidents and other gory things even if you just give them Bellville sets And on the other hand, AFOLs will simply ignore the whole theme background story because they're interested only in building (at least officially...). Of course the theme story reflects the design of the sets, and also viceversa, but in my opinion it's so optional that it becomes a non-issue.

(edit)

Also the juniorization aspect is debatable... In terms of single parts, definitely in the 70s-80s there were very few giant specialized pieces. Today we have an occasional horror (personally I loath the airplane cockpits and 1-piece wings, and the boats hulls tho these are dictated by floatability), but the mid-size parts such as windscreens and car bases existed since the late 70s, we just have more variations on them.

There is then juniorization of the parts (which I agree today is higher than before) and juniorization of the builds, which instead was at its worst in the mid-late 90s and early 00s. Today sets have some large part but at the same time a lot of miniature details which compensate and make the typical overall build definitely more complex than before hence less <insert that tiresome argument>.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Legoist

[Omicron]

How about some wooden ducks and trucks? Those were the days, am I right? :P

-Omi

[mikey]

How about some wooden ducks and trucks? Those were the days, am I right? :P

-Omi

Absolutely Not!

That was the moment juniorization first showed its simplistic face, by catering for children. They should have never targeted children with these pull along ducks. They knew real woodworking, they built furniture for Adults. They sold out. I am disgusted.

[Legoist]

How about some wooden ducks and trucks? Those were the days, am I right? :P

-Omi

Only until they added wheels: those devilish modern inventions...

[Big Cam]

As much as I see the point here, I just can't sign. I played with LEGO's 20 years ago and I loved them, but I must say the detail of todays sets appeal to my adult frame of mind much more than sets of yesteryear.

[benhead]

I like the new personalities for the mini figures.Its clever that one face is calm or focused while the one on the reverse side is in a panic.

But I also like the generic smiley face from the older stuff too.The only gripe that I have about new lego parts is that what used to be 8 smaller pieces is now 1 huge piece!This is crap Lego!And what used to be $8 for 87 pieces(bionicle) is now 33 pieces and costs $14!When did lego go from technic robots to duplo lameness with softer parts?Are there really that many kids eating and choking on bionicle pieces?

[Dazmundo]

I wonder who the 38 people who have actually signed the petition are?? Only 9962 to go to reach the target

D

[Lego Otaku]

I'd like to add I liked the older sets. Back in the day you had to build (for example) a rocky wall with multiple pieces, not with one piece like this rock panel: http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=6082

When you could count the number of available non-transparent colors with just 1 hand (black, red, yellow, blue, grey, white, and green, ok that's 7) Right now there's something like 30 colors in production and some are very similar to each other or to discontinued colors.

When a set didn't come with numbered bag (this was new in the past couple years) and building a 1,000 pieces set means going through all 1,000 pieces to find that one piece.

When the box had flap to reveal the content, when the part tray also doubled to keep manual and sticker sheets from coming in mangled, and sometimes as a colorful backdrop.

When the instruction and/or box featured a few alternate build suggestions. Today, the manual usually only shows one build instruction, maybe extra for adding motors and batteries, but never picture of alternate builds.

[kibosh]

When the box had flap to reveal the content, when the part tray also doubled to keep manual and sticker sheets from coming in mangled, and sometimes as a colorful backdrop.

I do miss the flap on the largest sets. It gave you a chance to "ooooh" and "ahhhhhh" at the new pieces inside!

[Jargo]

That was then and this now and I want to look to the future not the past. I really dont want to go back to classic town days. I like my modern city and funky new bricks and colours.

[vexorian]

People in 1997 were complaining about juniorization, and LEGO becoming too specialized.

...

DaveE

To be fair they were right that time. 1997-Early 2000s was a very dark age for LEGO in which they had many losses and their revival is seen as a miracle in some articles and attributed to going back to making bricks and improving the designs.

[Aanchir]

I like the new personalities for the mini figures.Its clever that one face is calm or focused while the one on the reverse side is in a panic.

But I also like the generic smiley face from the older stuff too.The only gripe that I have about new lego parts is that what used to be 8 smaller pieces is now 1 huge piece!This is crap Lego!And what used to be $8 for 87 pieces(bionicle) is now 33 pieces and costs $14!When did lego go from technic robots to duplo lameness with softer parts?Are there really that many kids eating and choking on bionicle pieces?

Ummm... the latest wave of Hero Factory sets are almost all hard-plastic parts. Also, the price-per-piece for canister sets has hardly gone up since the beginning of BIONICLE (and there are inescapable financial reasons it would have gone up even if the sets had the exact same contents year-in and year-out). The softer parts exist for a number of reasons (choking hazards having nothing to do with them, since a soft plastic part is even more of a choking hazard than a harder part, and in fact this is the reason there aren't any soft-plastic pieces in Duplo), and in the form of weapons and armor they have existed since near when BIONICLE first began.

Also, you fail to realize that in using price-per-piece to argue today's Hero Factory sets are bad, you're using the same tired logic that irate AFOLs have often used to say that BIONICLE and other constraction themes have [i[always[/i] been bad. In other words, by your logic the BIONICLE you're so nostalgic about is a cheap, pathetic excuse for a theme. I'm a BIONICLE fan and a Hero Factory fan, and we both know BIONICLE was a decent theme. But the hopeless logic you're using contradicts this, and tells us that we should remember BIONICLE as valueless trash we still haven't completely gotten rid of. This is the reason why price-per-piece isn't and never has been a reasonable means of assessing a constraction set's value.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Aanchir

[davee123]

Tho I don't understand what you mean with "element quality", do you mean the currently made parts are not the best in terms of durability/robustness?

1) Tolerances - I recall seeing some analysis that fans had done investigating tolerances of newer elements versus older elements, where newer elements weren't as accurate to the system as they should be. I've also noticed this in various elements when assembled. It's minor, but it's noticeable.

2) Color - inconsistency with color has been an issue in recent elements, since about 2004.

3) Chinese plastic - newer China-produced plastic is more translucent than normal ABS for LEGO, and seems to have a different sheen quality (not as shiny)

4) Color fastness - This I believe is actually improved in the current lineup, although I'm not really sure. I think older plastic has a tendency to yellow versus the newer plastic.

5) Element softness - Newer LEGO seems to "moosh" together moreso than older LEGO. Fans began commenting on this back in 2000 or so, and I noticed a difference between elements that I assembled in 1999 (the pieces were probably circa 1996-1998) compared to elements molded in 2004. The assumption is that LEGO has done this intentionally to allow younger kids to assemble pieces more easily, although that's just a guess. It's arguable as to which is better, but I personally prefer the more rigid ABS.

Also I don't agree very much with the "theme specificity" as being a negative quality.

I think of it as more of a "sweet spot", which I think was hit in the early 90's. I dunno if I'd categorize it quite as "negative" so much as "less positive" :)

Also the juniorization aspect is debatable...

It's all debatable I guess :) I remember <insert that tiresome argument> parts back in the day (castle walls, car chassis's, boat hulls, base-sized windscreens, etc), but they didn't dominate the builds. I agree it was *MISERABLE* between 1997-2003 or so, and has gotten better. And of course there ARE sets today that are geared towards AFOLs that are NOT <insert that tiresome argument> very much at all, like the modular town buildings, Market Village, etc. But again, I felt like the sweet spot overall was the 80's.

DaveE

[-R8-]

Browsing through Brickset and Bricklink and 'window shopping' for old sets always makes me wish I was alive in the 80s and 70s for the old stuff. Being that I grew up with sets like Town Jr., Life on Mars, etc. of course those are the themes that make me nostalgic the most. I find that older sets especially those released in the 90s appeal the most to me, far more so than today's sets. That is not to say I don't like today's sets - they're excellent and much fun, but older sets will have that sentimental value that newer sets simply won't have for me. Furthermore, I think in recent years we have seen some of the best sets released by LEGO in all time, like the modular buildings and the direct-to-consumer sets.

I would like to see a revival of the Legends line so that the new generation of LEGO fans would get some exposure to sets that many of us grew up with. But ultimately, the legacy of LEGO's past lives on in the fanbase today, and that's how we can still enjoy all the fun that the old sets have. We may never see old themes in their entirety be remade ever again, but hey, that's why we have communities like these to talk and reminisce about all the sets of a time gone by.