Should LEGO start a program to ‘re-release’ collectable series aimed at AFOLs?

[OxnardMontalvo]

This topic might have been up here before, if so, I apologize. Getting back to the topic title, I think most of us got lured back to LEGO after a long dark age period. You’ve found that one set to bring you back in, and a few years later, you bought a small fortune of LEGO sets. However, it turns out those 14+/16+ sets have been a series for over a decade, and getting your collection complete is nearly impossible, unless you are willing to pay 5-10x the original price. I feel it’s a bit of a shame LEGO can’t offer these sets anymore. But I do feel there is a certain solution.

And again, this idea might have been opted before, but I’m gonna give it a go anyways; re-releasing in a ‘budget’ style. With ‘budget’ I mean:

• A brown box
• No instructions (online instructions)
• No numbered bags
• A 25-50% higher price than the original price (to cover the additional cost of those rare/specific pieces and non-mass production)
• Only available online
• 1-2 weeks delivery time Shipping once every 3-6 months
• Change printed pieces with stickers (NOT preferred)

This would finally allow us AFOLs to complete the long lasting series like:

• Creator Expert Modular Buildings
• Creator Expert Vehicles 
• Creator Expert Fairground 
• Creator Expert Winter Village
• Creator Expert Buildings
• Architecture Skylines
• Architecture Buildings
• Star Wars UCS 
• IDEAS sets

The last two might be difficult for all sets due to legal rights, but you get the idea. 

Personally the lack of such a program is holding me back starting with certain series. I’d love to have Winter Village, but starting today seems like starting a collection I could never complete, while collecting of those sets is part of the fun. I think the modular building sets would be on very high demand. I can currently live with my 2014 and onwards modular sets, as I like a good interior, but if the others would be available, I’d buy them in a blink of an eye.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think LEGO could ever start such a program? And would you buy the ‘budget’ version, or do you need to have the original box and instructions?

Edited February 7, 2020 by OxnardMontalvo

[meliander]

They do re-release some sets but that's a rare exception. Like Taj Mahal, UCS Start War sets, etc. And the reason they do that (I think) is because they see a big potential in a certain set i.e. a Death Star - both for folks who missed it and the new audience.

The fact that the sets are retired and gain value is part of their brand now. It's part of what Lego is and they know that very well. It's something that actually make people pull the trigger and buy that $300 set NOW and not later, because it might get discontinued. Re-releasing old sets on the scale that would satisfy AFOLs will bring that value down.

Don't get me wrong - I'm in the same boat as you - missed a lot of Modular Buildings, Winter Village, other cool expert stuff. And I would LOVE to have everything that I missed available for purchase at MSRP today.

My advice and that's the road that I chose for myself - is first - focus on the stuff that's going to be retired this year. We can already enjoy the fact that Expert sets generally stay a bit longer so that gives us a better chance to buy what we want and not empty out wallets too quickly. Heck, I just built the Parisian Restaraunt which was supposed to be retired long time ago and I bought it just a few months ago - weeks before it was retired. And I'm so glad that I did that because that's the best Lego set I have ever had. And I also have the first modular - Cafe Corner. And I must say - it's not half as good as PR. So I'm thinking maybe because Lego produces so much cool stuff each year and every year - maybe there is no point in actually chasing down all of these old sets, but only focus on those that are really good and that you can purchase for decent price. So ask yourself a question - did you get all you wanted from the stuff that's available right now?

Now, I really do want to have Brick Bank and Detective's Office - sets that I missed. I was contemplating on buying them used, or even paying the 1.5-2x price for the sealed ones on Bricklink. And I haven't really decided on what to do yet, but I'm seriously looking into parting them out and just buying parts for them. I don't care if I don't get 100% of the parts (maybe something is out of production), or I may have two substitute some of them with different color or shape - as long as I can get them for a decent price - I will go for it. I just didn't have the time to do that yet, so I can't really comment on how it turns out to be, but that's what I'm considering right now.

P.S. Winter Village varies in quality and cohesiveness. Like the Santa's workshop, Gingerbread house - even though good sets - do not really belong to WV from my point of view. So I'm planning on getting only those that I like. I have the Toy Shop, the train (but not the station) and I'm planning on purchasing the Fire station and anything they come up in the future that I would like.

[Mylenium]

7 hours ago, OxnardMontalvo said:

Do you think LEGO could ever start such a program?

Nope. There would simply be a ton of practical issues from a production standpoint alone. The short version of it is that getting things organised for a production run of just a few thousand sets would far outweigh how they could recover the cost even at the most outrageous prices. And as @meliander already pointed out, LEGO has been more and more moving into a "high value collectibles" mentality and they're not going to screw with that. It's not impossible that they may bring out one or the other set as an "anniversary edition", but even then it's more likely they will be redesigned reissues of older sets rather than 1:1 copies. I agree that it's unfortunate for some people, but it's part of the game. Unless LEGO run out of ideas or their economic troubles make them desperate for quick cash grabs we won't see much of that. At best you could hope for is some of the sets resurfacing via something like the AFOL Designer program on Bricklink now that LEGO own it, but even that will be a limited thing.

Mylenium

[NathanR]

10 hours ago, OxnardMontalvo said:

Do you think LEGO could ever start such a program?

I'd love it if Lego did start a major program to rerelease loads of old sets, but it's never going to happen. There are a lot of Lego pieces that are not made any more, like 3934 Wedge 8x4 with the 1x1 cutout, or the magnets that appeared in so many Explorien sets (in fact I believe there's health and safety laws now preventing their inclusion in a children's toy). So Lego would either have to redesign and update the models, which defeats the purpose of reissuing a classic set, or they would have to reintroduce parts that have been long out of production.  Now this can be done - the Lego Ideas Ship-in-a-bottle set reintroduced the 6002 corner wall panel after an 8 year absence, but Lego almost cancelled production of the set because this part was so critical for the model. As another example, lego train fans have spent years begging for more of the 1980s monorail track, but the moulds no longer exist, they've been buried in concrete underneath one of the Lego factories. Then of course, there are problems over what colours to use.  I would love to get my hands on the first two Star Wars UCS sets, the X-Wing and the TIE Interceptor, but oddly enough I find myself wanting them in the original greys, not the current light/dark bluish grey introduced round 2002, to better tie in with my remaining childhood Lego sets.

I think the best route will always be to simply bricklink the retired sets that you want. I got the Emerald Night steam engine that way, though I had to go for unprinted parts on the boiler and sacrifice the coach that came with the set. Other times, it's just a case of adjusting the design of the set a little so you remove the rare pieces - a few years ago I "refreshed" the designs of 10018 UCS Darth Maul and 7194 UCS Yoda so that they only used the currently available parts.  Yoda was a huge challenge actually, and ultimately pointless given the explosion in sand green parts this last two years, but it did make for a fun project, and I guess maybe sometimes you just have to wait a few years for the rare colours to get reintroduced. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by NathanR

[1963maniac]

12 hours ago, OxnardMontalvo said:

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think LEGO could ever start such a program? And would you buy the ‘budget’ version, or do you need to have the original box and instructions?

I would definitely buy winter village, budget version or not.

[deraven]

Surely someone else here remembers the Legends line of re-releases that Lego did in the early 2000s?

https://lego.fandom.com/wiki/Legends

The boxes were basically reprints of the original sets with the "Legends" banner included, some of them initially being in black & white instead of color.  Minor substitutions or re-designs were done where needed (the Guarded Inn used headlight bricks instead of the old 1x1 windows, for example) and that seemed to have worked just fine.  They only released 1-3 per year and they were priced in-line with MSRP on current sets.

I think it'd be excellent if the did the same sort of thing again with whatever re-designs might be required and even at a bit of a price premium.  I'd also be down with more substantial re-imaginings of some classic sets along the lines of some of the awesome neo-Classic Space MOCs folks have done.  Perhaps those would fall into the supposed new focus on AFOLs to tap both some nostalgia and also the bigger pocketbooks, but straight re-issues like the Legends would be wonderful.  Even then, 15-20 years ago, the classic sets they put out as Legends were commanding a high premium on the secondary market (I recall coming very close to buying a MISB Black Seas Barracuda for $350 just before they announced that one) and while it hurt the resale value in the short term if you look again now you'll see the BSB back at a premium with high prices for both the original and the Legends re-release.  I don't think that's a huge consideration for TLG when deciding something like this... but their motivations are changing over time and I'm sure the acquisition of Bricklink says something about their interest in the secondary market... though I'm still not sure what.  

[OxnardMontalvo]

Plus I believe it will do good in the battle against Chinese knock-off’s. I have to be honost here, I’ve definitely looked at Lepin to see my options to get the modulars series complete. And even though buying Lepin sets goes against my philosophy, it crossed my mind several times as a way to get the series complete. The thing is, I want it to be LEGO. But not everyone will be a ‘overly perfectionist’ as I am (I will twist my 1x1’s until they’re perfect lined up :p), and buy the knock offs.

I think recolors might work in some cases. A red and yellow Saturn V would be a no-go ofcourse, but I could see a recolored Green Grocer or Pet Shop for example.

As for the parts that aren’t in production, that’s what the cutting back on production cost of other stuff and selling for a higher price could compensate. I’ve changed the shipping into once every 3-6 months, perhaps rotating sets each quarter, meaning LEGO can (sort of) mass produce certain bricks, it would lower the cost a lot. Since we’ve been able to wait 5-10 years, adding a few months shouldn’t be an issue.

For example, you would only be able to buy Winter Village sets in the Q4 shipping slot, which ships, en masse, in a single week of the year. If you didn’t order a certain set, you’d have to wait a full year. For WV sets, orders would be open from January until October, and shipping would take place at the end of November. Something like that.

[Mylenium]

11 hours ago, deraven said:

 the Legends line of re-releases

Not sure how that would work out with some of the more recent models, TBH. Looking at those Legends models it is my impression that they were a) mostly based on standard parts, b) used very few different parts, c) were relatively small/ complex and/or d) were mostly reliant on very specific prints and minifigures. Now compare that to relatively contemporary sets from just a few years ago. I still think just getting the production underway would require much more effort and complexity and thus makes it less likely. I would even argue that way back then it might also have been easier due to LEGO's factories not having been scattered all over the place. You know, logistics... If it were to happen at all it would require much more lead-in time and resources, which could be a factor why LEGO hasn't done it yet.

Mylenium

[deraven]

11 minutes ago, Mylenium said:

Now compare that to relatively contemporary sets from just a few years ago. I still think just getting the production underway would require much more effort and complexity and thus makes it less likely.

I think it really depends on the set.  The early Modular Buildings, like Cafe Corner, for example, have basically no specialized parts or prints.  Those would be a breeze to re-release.  Another thing that I think comes into play is how many molds TLG is able to turn out and run at a time these days.  Look at the large number of custom pieces for the CMF lines, and the much larger relative number of new elements used elsewhere each year as compared to even 5 years ago.  If there were a set they really wanted to put out again that had a couple elements out of production, I really don't think that would be much of a concern and might just add a tiny bit more to the retail price of the set.

[The Brick Boss]

Well.....we do have modulars, architecture and technic. 

[Mylenium]

5 hours ago, deraven said:

If there were a set they really wanted to put out again that had a couple elements out of production, I really don't think that would be much of a concern and might just add a tiny bit more to the retail price of the set.

Well, price would be my least concern, but I would maintain that the logistics could be endlessly more complicated. I'm pretty sure if someone showed a project chart of the planned production runs, there would be very few gaps in there that could be filled without sacrificing other sets in the process. LEGO may have hundreds of injection molding and printing machines, but I'm pretty sure their running times are planned out to the T for the next year at least. Add on top of that that they may already be planning new parts, new sets and whatever for the next three years, one might imagine that it may not be at all trivial to sneak in some extra stuff. That's the curse of being so big and needing to feed the market in a specific manner to keep interest and money flowing. Not saying that it is impossible, but the devil is no doubt in the details and specifics of such projects.

Mylenium

[TeriXeri]

I still don't think it's fair to compare LEGENDS back then, to how it would do now.

First, those sets are LEGO exclusive, just consider how many physical LEGO stores opened since, my country only just got their first stores less then 6 months ago.

Internet sales/shipping was also far less developed still.

The biggest concern would be bringing back older colors/prints/moulds.

 

I think bringing back Inspired sets instead of 90-100% copies would be a better idea.

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by TeriXeri

[deraven]

18 hours ago, Mylenium said:

I'm pretty sure if someone showed a project chart of the planned production runs, there would be very few gaps in there that could be filled without sacrificing other sets in the process.

I agree with this, and definitely that "the devil is in the details," however 1) they have so many lines now that I'm sure they could find something less profitable to scale back or drop and 2) I still believe that they could add more production capacity more easily than most people think.  I very much still remember from decades ago the discussions of how expensive molds are to produce, the limited machine time/capacity that goes along with that, etc., but as I noted above those don't seem to actually be a bottleneck anymore, so I think it really does come down to what they want to do with scheduling and such as you touched on. Ultimately all of that is an unknown to all of us so we can only speculate.

Getting back a little close to the main topic (of whether or not they should do something like this vs whether or not they could), I still think it would be a great idea to try some limited re-releases again!  At this point I'd be happy if they just occasionally throw something our way when they have an unexpected lull somewhere in production (kind of like the 2015 Winter Toy Shop re-release that nobody was expecting, though that came at the expense of a new design for the Winter Village that year).

[Mylenium]

32 minutes ago, deraven said:

I very much still remember from decades ago the discussions of how expensive molds are to produce, the limited machine time/capacity that goes along with that, etc., but as I noted above those don't seem to actually be a bottleneck anymore

Molds certainly aren't in the day and age of CNC milling and electro erosion, but a machine costs what it costs. Just buying the thing isn't even the biggest issue. You also have to have a foundation/ anchor frame and integrate it with existing automated systems (feeding the plastic pellets, transporting the pieces to their collecting stations etc.), which in turn may require additional machinery and control electronics. It quickly becomes a chain ripple effect. That said, of course LEGO might consider scaling back production runs of other sets or just not even start up re-runs of sets that sell poorly, but still, it would take some planning and keep quite a few people on their toes for a while...

Mylenium

[LegoDW]

There's just not enough revenue in these releases for TLG to consider it.  Some parts are not still in production, interest lower then new sets, just does not make financial sense.  I know you think Hey they already paid the design costs, costs for the molds, and art work for the box. Just does not work out that way.    

[OxnardMontalvo]

On 2/12/2020 at 12:42 AM, LegoDW said:

There's just not enough revenue in these releases for TLG to consider it.  Some parts are not still in production, interest lower then new sets, just does not make financial sense.  I know you think Hey they already paid the design costs, costs for the molds, and art work for the box. Just does not work out that way.    

Well, no. As stated in the opening post, the idea is a ‘budget’ version of the set. So no box, no instructions, no numbered bags, higher price than the original price, only available trough LEGO.com, sets will only be shipped a few times a year and only selected sets  are available (long lasting series). So that’s a lot of measures to cut the cost. These measures should be enough to give it a financial sense. 

They wouldn’t be selling sets, they would ‘part out’ the set as you would buy the bricks from bricklink. As suggested in my post above, the idea (for example) is to be able to order Winter Village sets from december-october and delivery takes place in november. Modulars would be delivered in august/september and Star Wars (UCS) in april/may. These three are the longest running collectible series and would very likely be on high demand. 

TLG should be very much capable of reintroducing these sets to the many new AFOLs out there. I believe they haven’t really found out the full potential of rereleasing their massive stack of gems. We see it with movies, series, music, books, games, why not with LEGO? 

[Mylenium]

8 hours ago, OxnardMontalvo said:

no box, no instructions, no numbered bags,

The things you mentioned are penny stuff and in fact would probably be the easiest to handle. Based on what I remember from working for clients in the print industry an instruction and a box doesn't even cost two Euros. It wouldn't even matter how large a box or how thick the booklet. Same for the bags/ foil. This stuff is coming from some exterior factory no doubt. You see, cutting corners on these things would not be any incentive.

Let me tell you what costs a lot, though: Digging out old molds. Reviving and adapting those old molds to modern machines, possibly requiring to create entirely new molds. Organizing the logistics. Ordering raw materials. Digging out old digital files for pre-press work on the boxes and instructions. Shooting new photos and creating new layouts if old stuff can't be found or is inadequate for today's requirements. Mounting molds into the machines, cleaning and maintaining machines, production run-up. Marketing. Need I go on?

It's the labor involved that is the cost factor, not necessarily the materials. Given all that, producing 10000 sets of an old Modular Building may sound great to you, but would certainly require a lot of effort on LEGO's end. It very likely just isn't economically feasible under those conditions, even more so since that "higher price" you are willing to pay could easily end up equaling collector's prices that you are trying to avoid...

Mylenium

[OxnardMontalvo]

@Mylenium A bit unfair to only quote a part of the suggested measures. Plus you’re adding stuff to the cost that isn’t suggested at all, it’s a ‘part-out’ version of the set, no newly numbered set. Yes, a handful of bricks will need to be reproduced from scratch, but the ‘no-nonsense’ approach, a higher retail price and the ‘only-once-a-year-delivery’ for the sets should outweigh the additional cost of a few molds. Especially the ‘once-a-year-delivery’ will let LEGO mass produce parts that makes financial sense. Plus I’d say Modulars and Winter Village are hardly hit at all by out of production parts. Perhaps some colors aren’t in production, but that really shouldn’t be an issue, as they introduce new colors all the time.

They can start with sets that have all their parts still in production to see if this kind of program could work. The suggested higher price is well below what people are asking on Bricklink, we’re talking 250%-600% the original price

I absolutely get your concerns about the cost and logistics it would bring, but I guess we have to agree to disagree on that.

Edited February 13, 2020 by OxnardMontalvo

[Mylenium]

6 hours ago, OxnardMontalvo said:

I guess we have to agree to disagree on that.

We have to disagree on a lot of things, because ultimately I think you underestimate on which level and at what scope LEGO operates these days. You see, those "part-out" pieces have to come somewhere, too, and they're not going to produce any special parts unless it fills an x number of their storage and transport boxes or otherwise even setting up one of their injection mold machines would cause much more kerfuffle than it's worth in the end. That's just one of those things. Suffice it to say that I still strongly think it's never going to happen unless LEGO are so pressed for cash, perhaps due to their next self-caused crisis, that they will do anything out of desperation....

Mylenium

[Medzomorak]

Maybe I've not read all the arguments carefully enough , but we AFOLs just buy any old set we want used or even as MISB for a lot of money already. So why would Lego waste time and capital with recreating old things when we're also buying the new interesting things all the same?

Edited February 13, 2020 by Medzomorak

[Vindicare]

If the box & physical instructions aren’t a problem, why not just Bricklink(if accessible) the parts & build it? Granted I have no idea of the process of doing that as I never have, but it seems to be a bit of a common occurrence. 

[OxnardMontalvo]

5 hours ago, Vindicare said:

If the box & physical instructions aren’t a problem, why not just Bricklink(if accessible) the parts & build it? Granted I have no idea of the process of doing that as I never have, but it seems to be a bit of a common occurrence. 

The main issue with that is that it doesn’t ensure the same quality of bricks. Most parts on bricklink are used parts. A part might look like new to the seller, but it can be discolored when you complete your set. Parts can be scratched, chewed on or have a smoke odor. Another issue is pricing. Some parts are very expensive, just because they are rare.

I’ve bought quite a lot of missing bricks for my old sets, and I can safely say it is a bad idea if you want a ‘pristine’ set on your shelve.

[MAB]

On 2/13/2020 at 12:15 PM, OxnardMontalvo said:

@Mylenium A bit unfair to only quote a part of the suggested measures. Plus you’re adding stuff to the cost that isn’t suggested at all, it’s a ‘part-out’ version of the set, no newly numbered set.

This would be a newly numbered set. They need a number to keep track of the items they sell. This is different to the old set, so they need a new number.

LEGO factories supposedly run at capacity anyway, so any diversion to make new "old" bricks will hit sales of modern sets. And personally, they make enough new product to keep me busy.