Ehmhhmeem. Hmm, very well. Since you revealed my true profile I think we should clear some things up here.
I am stunned by this feedback and I really thought this would've been laughed upon by all of us after the game. I think you are missing the mark.
First of all, thanks for the effort you take to host these games. The narrations and builds make it so much more cozy compared to other platforms.
I planned to piggyback off my identity of my previous characters to make myself truly anonymus after a couple of games - as I think it really should be. But since every other forumites' previous play patterns are also revealed - and quite obvious - by many different games at this point, it is more fair this way. Not that most of you would have not tracked things back to my profile and not that it would make any difference considering I'm relatively new on the whole forum.
As a matter of fact I am not a new player in terms of general mafia gaming at all. With EB games naturally I am, but many things I asked you about in PM were more like a survey to get a picture about the whole meta going on here. I do felt at the time that something is not okay with the game setups and available information. Also I saw you being a player as well in games hosted by else and also considering that the others already have the knowledge about each other I found it more fair for you to think of me as a newbie. With these two long games in the bag I actually do have some criticism which I can address now and being truly serious about it. I hope you believe it is with constructive intentions.
To clear up the heated arguments some of us have made against each other and my response you refered to as me going after you. In short, this was just how the play turned out.
I am surprised you'd think this was some kind of honest hatred or frustration from me/us (I can only speak for myself of course) getting out of hand. In my opinion that's how the game went and nothing more. I admit I was stunned that you asked us to be more calm, because if you wanted to show your displease with the game as the host, it was way too late for that. This is why I implied that Paul situation which you ignored at the time and this is why I said that if you honestly meant it, you should've stopped the game right after the first personal remark and cleared up your own rules. I do claim that I was just adapting and reacting to different players in the same manner I believed they were playing. I got no response but now reading your feedback I think you may see me as the cause of this or imply that I've started it and this is just plainly wrong. I did not start to play like that, again, I merely adapt. Yes, I am indeed coming from a chat-based platform, which you probably have guessed most of the time hosts very heated debates. But even there we do not play like that until some teens do not find the platform and troll in to start trash talking. Most of the time we just instantly outvote these or even start talking back like that to show our perfect ability of doing the same or even find out if there is some actual reason behind all of it. And naturally the rules are explicit about behaviours, you can't insult other players in their religion, sexual orientation, nationality, etc... you know the drill. Everything else is just game on. Can't recall how many times I had to read back days of texts within a couple of minutes to find the evidence hidden between tons of F*CK YOUs. Personally I don't like it but if that's the way it goes, you need to adapt. The fact that you even had the time to have a chat with Kristel about this on the Deadbord, mentioning civility, tells me you are out of touch in this matter. I am SHOCKED to read now that you had the time to have problems with me beaing a meanie in a mafia game with your long known friends, but with the other direction you were just using double standards and seemingly ignored complete posts. Again if you preach about civility, you were days, even a week late by the time I started to give something back properly my own way. EB has its own standards of course but this game is different so you should make all things very clear right at the beginning of the game, otherwise - in my opinion- even the host has no place whatsoever to roam in and tell players how to make their play.
And for my main observation about hosted games here.
I think it is simply criminal that there is not a single index page already with proper instruction about every possible EB-native mafia roles and possible variations. Maybe you had played so many games before you guys just started to feel bored of strict rules and that's why these overly "dynamic" game setups are being played instead. I have some comments on this, but that is not even the whole matter. The first thing was Bob sending my rolecop descriptions by switching up the alignment and role definitions. Not in a personal way of course, but I was very annoyed with you Bob already at that moment, because as a matter of fact, I knew what a rolecop was. I had to ask back, explicitly clearing up the difference between the two terms to see if you are actually using the proper nomenclature. Again I mean no offense, your narrative work and time input is amazing, but these are the less important things compared the actual core role mechanisms and you were lazy about that. Maybe you did not have the time to pay attention, maybe you just made a mistake or something. Or maybe you just did not care. This is why I say there should be an index for every game hosted and every variations should be changed on that, not just randomly throwing things out in the open. Even referencing the mafia wiki all over the place is is totally redundant if you even take the liberty to swap explicitly named roles with each other. You hosted with the knowledge that some players are potential newbies. There is no way you could justify these changes to them(us). When Liam claimed to us in PM as a commuter while practically having a jailer role I was mad. My instant thought was that this is just bad. What would've happened if I read Liam as a rolecop? Would you have sent me a message telling me he is commuter, while he was not? Would you have explicitly explained the situation or just let it play out and call it a quality game? Why not random generating strings and sending those back? I can create endless theories what kind of roles could produce that and my play won't be any smarter.
I'd very much like to argue that it is a horrible delusion that putting such degrees of freedom into a party game with originally strict rules makes the game quality doubtlessly better. It is misconception seen in many board, card and social games before. Creating too many open variables are not correlating with the actual complexity-thinking needed to play the game. I remember my favorite collectibe card game dying out because the designers kept adding more and more cards, attributes and random event possibilities to milk the game in spite of the community's best players' protestation, who knew exactly that more options in an uncontrolled way will only bring in overly random coefficients. The most brilliant games in history have the most simple rulesets. Many board games are plain bad and boring because the designers' idea of overcomplicating things actually made it either too one-sided with overpowered boring metas or too random because of uncontrollable RNG elements. Without actual indices of potential roles the game will end up more like an RNGfest. I don't know if this is the exact reason you omitted conversions here as well, but the way it was done in Pirates I for an example, was just wrong. Played out nicely by Patrick for sure, but converting a claimed and almost confirmed jailer while not even the roles are known are plainly broken. There is a reason why in most games you can't just go around and converty anybody you want.
Analogies are always off, but it is almost like playing chess and some of the pieces could randomly change their moves when the host says so. After some critical point it won't make the game more complex, but more random. On the final days when they were theorizing about the necessary parities to end the game in case of a 3rd party player, about the host potentially giving out new strongshots while the game is still on, arguing about different mafia wiki interpretations.... was simply painful. That was a meme-game level, if this is what is going on D7-D8, the game is already done being anything good.
And finally about my remarks on some player's move being good or not. Well again, some of my talk was just part of the play, some of it was an honest opinion. I don't see any reason to take it personally or bringing too much emotions into that. I was in home office because of the virus and I had too much spare time even besides my job. I've also played around a hundred different half-hour mafia games while I was doing this one as well, so believe me, I know my shit when I'm talking about this game and I know my win ratios there as well. Also I was getting much bigger flamewars on the other side to be angry with anyone else here. I wanted to join the mafiascum.net championship too, but a bigger job came in and 500 daily posts would have overwhelmed even me, so I backed out. Maybe next year, we'll see.
Yes, I know what you're thinking. I know you think of me as the arrogant dude coming here with all this, you Bob and Kristel took your time to voice this on the Deadboard. Maybe you are right. Maybe from another perspective, this looks quite different. Personally I now read you posting the pretty arrogant things off-game behind my back while I am aware of my time input in this game. I even tend to play with friends in real life where you have to lie into the face of your best friend who knows you for 13 years. I'm even planning a python-written program to play the automated chat-based version to finally get some exact analytics of game setups and optimal strategy theories. From my perspective maybe you are denying that there are general aspects to this game regardless of your local meta and setups.
There is no other way to put it so I will. Some of the plays here were plainly amateur. You even call each other's play - like claiming mason without any basic mason evidence (while I was just 'schooled' on claiming being overated and this was not even an open setup) - a good effort. I know you guys are friends, but this is simply bad for the game and you should just take a bad move as it is and not being always so gentle and reassuring with each others, like fancy rich producers on an Oscar gala. I had my questionable moves for sure, but you ignoring all the obvious things won't let me go without a word after your feedback. Well, I do think some of these setup aspects let's us to do totally bad moves and justify ourselves later on, quickly labeling them as EB meta and with "this is how it goes here" stuff. I told Justin this too, many plays here were like under-betting an obviously redundant river while check-raising at the turn before. To vote and say something only for the sake of posting out characters.
There are 600 pages long books about different chess defense systems and you can still play and experience chess for 10 years without taking a single look at them. They'll still be true and valid nonetheless. And I'm reading now, that you also talked quite a bit in the Deadboard about me being totally off about theories of the game, while again, even your initial instructions sent to me (to a supposed newbie) suggested that Mafia is not being taken too seriously here. Maybe I was all over the place and you guys played it out perfectly. Maybe I used the unvote option as intended when it was quite clear that we're going to lynch villies or maybe you had the point and we had to check them out anyway. Maybe I was too pushy with Fabien or maybe he discarded my theory and killed the claimed jailer instead while not even having the detective intel his actions implied. Maybe you were right in the Deadboard that scum did not play together or maybe there was a scum on the wagon with Joshua indeed. Maybe Emmett should have taken me a bit more seriously I could've let go my sus on him and we could've nailed the only non-claimed voter or maybe I was just too annoying at that point and we had to go chasing ghosts for 2 days instead. Maybe we should just accept that this is one forum with lego heads talking to each others while there are platforms where things move on a totally different level. Again by the time you guys finally ended this one I've bagged a dozen of other plays and wins and I have been played and made a fool just as many times to see this one just another piece in the puzzle. Maybe I just humble myself to adapt to this meta as well, maybe I'll just actually learn the secret and nail these games too, or maybe I'll just endlessly theorize around on D7 about 3:3:1 or 4:3 parities. A lot of maybes and your off-game Deadboard remark on me with all the exact information by the host is completely unfair. We can go on about each other's abilities and actual ambitions in getting better in this game, as far as I see how reactions and emotions work here I say it won't make any real difference.
For the record, to ease this arrogant picture of me inside your heads, I'd have to say I had too many bad moves I am more annoyed about. Exactly those troglodyte ones I like to preach against all the time. My PM to Vincent was a total backfire, because it just confirmed me more that this guy is absolutely no Town (and not even the one I was thinking of, namely a stinking scum), but I was kinda aware of that already and I just fed his position needlessly. Also I'm not a fan of townies being able to talk with each other during the night but for the first time was excited about the idea of this angle and jumped on it with too much haste. I think even getting the information I needed caused more problems, being too vague with a hundred possibilities of non-disclosed random roles all the time. It just made me miss Jean's softing so hard and our timing against each other was just unfortunate. When I've finally got his soft message I literally banged my head on the desk. Also no, you won't jail your cop, I don't even understand how the actual protector missed him. Also I missed your hidden acrostic message Hinck, while I was indeed checking many posts before. By that time I gave up on the idea that this is used here and since we were already best friends 4ever by D2, I did not check your first post as well. This was my part of the huge arrogance kicking in. But you revealing it later was a heartwarming sight, I totally loved it.
If what you said Bob in the Deadboard, that some players were thinking of leaving the game because of me, I have to say, maybe they really should. If these are their true emotion, it just tells me they don't have what it takes and I just made a good job for the sake of quality Mafia. If I was too much, you guys don't know anything about real savages. This was one of the most lazy and slowest game I've ever seen and you guys complained about too many posts.... I do think if you don't have the time to play a game you joined to, you should not play at all. 96 hours per day.
I do think this meta needs more rock 'n' roll and I have my own style and ambitions with the game to contribute the way I can. And today town eventually won, thanks to Shadows making the home run with Hinck's assistance. So where is the problem?
I had my good times, headbangs and laughs in spite of all the things I observed to be not cool and I learned some of the valuable lessons I was actually looking for. If I'm going to be conveniently taken as some big-mouthed smart-aleck, I guess that is the way it is and if the host of a game won't need me I won't get an account to play and the story ends there.
Thanks again for the game.