Future Castle Sets?

[SirBlake]

Question for the people refuting those of us that want to see some Castle product come back... (Basically the people whining about us whiners)

What is your goal? What I mean is, I'm seeing a lot of push back on ideas that would bring new castle back. Push back on a D2C solution.  Push back on a full theme. Push back on a tiny Castle/Pirates/Space mini-theme. Insistence that any form of castle existing would still be met with more whining, so why bother.

Is the goal for us to just shut up and be happy with what we've got (which is nothing)?

Not trying to be combative here. I'm genuinely curious.

[x105Black]

21 minutes ago, BrickJagger said:

... you’re going to be hard pressed to convince me to buy anything that “resembles Castle” but isn’t. For example, the Disney Castle is not Castle, nor are Elves or the Castle in Minecrat. There’s no amount of convincing you could do that would change my mind on that. Is it irrational? Maybe for you. But some of us like Castle, and only Castle. I don’t need to buy other Castle-like sets that Lego puts out during its hiatus, or convice myself that I want them. I’ll just wait until they put out actual Castle sets ...

I completely agree.  However, if a set interests me, I will buy it.  I, fortunately for me, am into more than just Castle.  So I buy the odd Superhero or Star Wars set.  Harry Potter us not Castle, but I will likely buy one of those sets.

My spending would be far greater on Castle sets.  2013 was a disappointment to many, yet I bought all but the King's Castle.  Give us another Castle theme and I would likely do it again.

[thetang22]

I'd say what makes Castle truly "castle" for many AFOLs is the presence of factions in a way that is familiar to those we grew up with.  Sure, we don't need the exact factions (while that would be awesome), but we want something that feels like it fits in with our existing collections from years back. When I buy a set, that set (or even theme as a whole) doesn't exist in a vaccuum - it will join my existing collection to expand on my overall Lego Castle realm, so to speak.  If a set doesn't include Minifigures, then I have to ask if the building feels appropriate within my overall collection.  A lot of the offerings from other themes like Nexo and Minecraft are simply too stylistically different to have any place within my overall collection.  Elves can to some degree, but the Minidolls definitely don't.

That said, what I really look for is a theme that offers both main selling points for me:  new minifigs that feel appropriate within my existing collection, as well as structures that do as well.  If they don't offer one or the other (preferably both in a new theme), then that theme just doesn't have much value for me.  I hated the buildings and good guys in Nexo, but felt some of the fantasy villains offered something positive.  The problem was that they always came in sets with a bunch of extra junk that just didnt show value for me (junk that helped inflate the price), so it kept me from buying those sets.

[gedren_y]

I don't buy Lego for the sets as they design them, I buy the sets with the parts I need for what I want to build. For some time that was Guilds of Historica, but lately my builds have been in Brethren of the Brick Seas.

Castle as a theme is generally made up of the parts I want, and readily usable figs that require little to no modification. Heraldry designs can hold a range of desirability.

Minecraft sets have a lot of bricks for filler parts in larger builds, and some fantastical elements that can be used in different ways.

Star Wars has increasingly had sets that are great for the parts needed in building for historical and fantasy, and a number of figs can be repurposed with minimal effort. That big Ewoks set, if I could convince myself of the expenditure, is an epic source of parts in the kinds of quantity you'll get nowhere else. People talk of a Forestmen version, but it won't happen as long as Star Wars fans (so many aren't AFOLs) are buying the Ewoks set as display pieces.

A D2C Castle set in a high cost range would have to have a parts and figs selection superior to what I could find in a number of smaller sets that match its cost for me to see it as worth the purchase. If there's a fig or heraldry in a set like that I want, Bricklink resellers are always an option. I did it for that a couple of different shields that were in high cost sets (not all Castle).

From my perspective, the survival of Castle as a theme needs kids to be the primary target buyers. Hence Nexo Knights. Sets aimed at nostalgic adult buyers will not be good for Castle long term. Would the sets sell? Yes, but not likely to non-AFOLs.

[Aanchir]

2 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

I’m loyal to the Castle brand. Nexo is Castle. KK2 is Castle. Other than that, you’re going to be hard pressed to convince me to buy anything that “resembles Castle” but isn’t. For example, the Disney Castle is not Castle, nor are Elves or the Castle in Minecrat. There’s no amount of convincing you could do that would change my mind on that. Is it irrational? Maybe for you. But some of us like Castle, and only Castle. I don’t need to buy other Castle-like sets that Lego puts out during its hiatus, or convice myself that I want them. I’ll just wait until they put out actual Castle sets and buy old sets in the interim.

I understand that you can be interested only in one theme. But it seems to fly in the face of the argument you were making that LEGO is missing out on sales from Castle fans who would supplement their collection with other LEGO products, when it feels like many fans of action/adventure or even licensed themes here on Eurobricks define their comfort zones much less narrowly than the Eurobricks Castle community.

2 hours ago, SirBlake said:

Question for the people refuting those of us that want to see some Castle product come back... (Basically the people whining about us whiners)

What is your goal? What I mean is, I'm seeing a lot of push back on ideas that would bring new castle back. Push back on a D2C solution.  Push back on a full theme. Push back on a tiny Castle/Pirates/Space mini-theme. Insistence that any form of castle existing would still be met with more whining, so why bother.

Is the goal for us to just shut up and be happy with what we've got (which is nothing)?

Not trying to be combative here. I'm genuinely curious.

Personally, I would like to see the Castle theme return and continue to make strides forward. I believe that it can and WILL return in some form. Several of my posts in this thread have talked about what sorts of things I'd like to see in a future Castle theme. At the same time, I want to be realistic about it and part of that means recognizing that there are reasons that the LEGO Group doesn't always meet everyone's expectations (even mine). It's rarely as simple as "LEGO doesn't care about Castle fans" or "if brand X can keep castle products around constantly, LEGO can too" or "Castle products would be a huge hit if they just did them the way WE want!"

And I don't mean to make it sound like this is exclusively a Castle fan problem — I'm used to reading these same sorts of arguments from Bionicle fans — as well as the insistence that there's "nothing" on shelves currently for Bionicle fans to enjoy, despite the many similarities between Bionicle and current themes like Ninjago. It makes me feel a bit shut out of the conversation, like being a REAL fan of Bionicle or Castle means accepting no substitutes, even if many of the most appealing parts of those themes for me continue to appear in other themes, sometimes even in superior forms.

So far there haven't been any actual LEGO Castle sets that appeal to me as much as the practically furnished buildings and brick-built dragons of LEGO Elves. It is as much a Castle theme to me as any other. And I would like to see the next boy-targeted Castle theme take some design cues from it. Yet even many of the people here who DO want Castle sets back talk about LEGO as if they think kids have no interest in castles and are letting down every single kid or adult who likes them. Nobody ever seems to give much thought to how many castle– and fantasy-loving kids and adults LEGO might be reaching NOW who would have felt let down by the status quo of the Castle theme in the 80s and 90s.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Aanchir

[SirBlake]

@Aanchir , thank you for the thoughtful and insightful reply. It helps to see where you're coming from on this.

[BrickJagger]

9 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I understand that you can be interested only in one theme. But it seems to fly in the face of the argument you were making that LEGO is missing out on sales from Castle fans who would supplement their collection with other LEGO products, when it feels like many fans of action/adventure or even licensed themes here on Eurobricks define their comfort zones much less narrowly than the Eurobricks Castle community.

I can't speak for everyone else on that. Aside from a few small sets each year, I really only buy Castle stuff (Nexo is an official Castle sub theme so it counts  ). However, I was referring to fans of not only Castle, but Pirates and Space as well. Those three themes have each been around for decades, and their fans are dedicated to Lego as a brand. Lego is currently cold-shouldering these fans at a never before seen level, and I think that it's reasonable to expect that some of them may stop buying new products, or at least buy less each year. If Lego chooses to only appeal to kids and completely ignore their long-term fans, it could prove to be disastrous. 

[MAB]

16 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

I’m loyal to the Castle brand. Nexo is Castle. KK2 is Castle. Other than that, you’re going to be hard pressed to convince me to buy anything that “resembles Castle” but isn’t. For example, the Disney Castle is not Castle, nor are Elves or the Castle in Minecrat. There’s no amount of convincing you could do that would change my mind on that. Is it irrational? Maybe for you. But some of us like Castle, and only Castle. I don’t need to buy other Castle-like sets that Lego puts out during its hiatus, or convice myself that I want them. I’ll just wait until they put out actual Castle sets and buy old sets in the interim.

So if Lego redid LOTR for example, you'd have no interest in the sets for parts? If an HP set comes with lots of tan or greys, no interest? An ideas set with lots of useful parts in useful colours?

[x105Black]

Here and there, there is interest in those other themes, but they do not offer what only Castle can offer.

[MAB]

5 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

However, I was referring to fans of not only Castle, but Pirates and Space as well. Those three themes have each been around for decades, and their fans are dedicated to Lego as a brand. Lego is currently cold-shouldering these fans at a never before seen level, and I think that it's reasonable to expect that some of them may stop buying new products, or at least buy less each year. If Lego chooses to only appeal to kids and completely ignore their long-term fans, it could prove to be disastrous. 

I'd question whether fans of Classic Castle, Space and Pirates (exclusively) are dedicated to Lego as a brand. They are dedicated to Lego Classic Castle (Space / Pirates) as a brand but not Lego more generally if they don't buy other themes. If Lego decided there was not enough money in those three themes, what have they lost if they stop producing them? Sure they may lose long term fans that exclusively follow those themes but then those fans weren't buying enough product anyway. Those fans don't buy other Lego products, so they wouldn't have been buying anything for the past few years. There is no loss there. They were not loyal to Lego, but to just one Lego theme that they decided to no longer produce.

Lego doesn't only appeal to kids, there are plenty of adult / older kid sets - architecture, modulars, technic, etc. The kid ranges should in my view primarily be aimed at kids. Long term fans of themes that are primarily aimed at children may feel important but they are a small portion of the market when it comes to buyers of those themes.

I say that as someone that would love to see a large adult style castle or medieval set or series, or a history based theme. But I also recognise that type of series won't sell as well as City, Harry Potter, Star Wars, and probably even Nexo Knights. But I have no doubt castle will come back soon enough, but kid focussed with simple builds and carriages. Space will probably also be back but not classic space, of the blues and greys type. That had its place in time, any new space theme needs to be futuristic for today's kids, not kids of the last generation.

[thetang22]

For people who talk of buying sets specifically for parts...is it really that efficient to do so?  Ive looked at this myself, versus something like Bricklink, and it seems ungodly expensive to buy full sets for parts, when you can usually get exactly what you need from a place like Bricklink for considerably cheaper.

 

i know some people will say things like wanting to support the Lego brand, but the reality is they are doing VERY well with or without your support.  As has been said many times before - AFOLs make up a supposed small % of the audience.

 

i suppose I'm more interested in supporting my own wallet than a company that isn't hurting financially in the slightest....and using places like Bricklink seems so much more efficient than buying sets for pieces (with some exceptions).

 

Thats why I am confused by people who buy sets for general parts collecting, instead of appreciating the set itself.

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, thetang22 said:

For people who talk of buying sets specifically for parts...is it really that efficient to do so?  Ive looked at this myself, versus something like Bricklink, and it seems ungodly expensive to buy full sets for parts, when you can usually get exactly what you need from a place like Bricklink for considerably cheaper.

i know some people will say things like wanting to support the Lego brand, but the reality is they are doing VERY well with or without your support.  As has been said many times before - AFOLs make up a supposed small % of the audience.

i suppose I'm more interested in supporting my own wallet than a company that isn't hurting financially in the slightest....and using places like Bricklink seems so much more efficient than buying sets for pieces (with some exceptions)

Thats why I am confused by people who buy sets for general parts collecting, instead of appreciating the set itself.

I rarely buy sets for parts… that said, a lot of my builds start out on LDD so I have the option to be specific about what parts I need. Buying a set just for parts might make more sense if you just want a wider selection of parts to play around with and are good at finding uses for whatever parts you don't already have specific uses in mind for. The utility of buying a set for parts can also depend a lot on whether the set is low-priced or substantially marked down, and on how much LEGO you are already buying for other reasons.

In general I don't buy a lot of sets anymore that aren't specifically on my wish list because there are so many sets I'm excited to get, I'm bad at keeping loose parts organized, and I'm not very efficient at using parts I buy without particular uses in mind.

[gedren_y]

When searching for a specific parts, yes Bricklink is a good option. The major downside is inconsistent availability, which usually necessitates purchasing from multiple vendors, and can incur greater shipping costs. Both Lego Shop @ Home and Amazon have free shipping thresholds, and Lego often offers free with purchase items. A good deal of my Lego shopping happens in store, though. Target is the best Lego retailer in my area.

My point about purchasing sets for parts was that I generally eschew Lego's general structural design. There are quite a number of NPUs that don't make it into sets because of cost inefficiency. Lego also doesn't generally populate the realm of its Castle theme enough, so creative use of figs becomes a necessity.

Still, a full Castle product line is the general want, and is the hope for 2019.

[x105Black]

I often buy grey spaceships from the Star Wars line because they come with a couple of minifigures I want, and I know I will be able to use the bulk of the grey set pieces in a Castle based build.  So yes, sometimes I buy sets from other themes for parts and minifigures.  I only do this when there is plenty to use, though.  With Elves, for example, I am more likely to buy via Bricklink or Bricks & Pieces to get the specific parts I'm after because minidolls are useless to me, as are most of the colorful parts.  And of course I always try to find a deal and buy at a discount when buying complete sets.

[zoth33]

19 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

I can't speak for everyone else on that. Aside from a few small sets each year, I really only buy Castle stuff (Nexo is an official Castle sub theme so it counts  ). However, I was referring to fans of not only Castle, but Pirates and Space as well. Those three themes have each been around for decades, and their fans are dedicated to Lego as a brand. Lego is currently cold-shouldering these fans at a never before seen level, and I think that it's reasonable to expect that some of them may stop buying new products, or at least buy less each year. If Lego chooses to only appeal to kids and completely ignore their long-term fans, it could prove to be disastrous. 

Lego produces several adult oriented sets every year look at the ucs sets, the fishing store, several of the technic sets, creator, and modulars.  They definatly wasn't ignoring us.  They have always been a kids based toy but have given us afols plenty over recent years.

[x105Black]

34 minutes ago, zoth33 said:

Lego produces several adult oriented sets every year look at the ucs sets, the fishing store, several of the technic sets, creator, and modulars.  They definatly wasn't ignoring us.  They have always been a kids based toy but have given us afols plenty over recent years.

But nothing in the way of Castle themed sets.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

I am a castle AND pirates fan. And when the pirates came out in 2015, I bought 3x every set. I own 7 chessboards. 4 ships. And so on.

On the other hand, every year I buy some sets from other themes but never that many! That's my point. As a castle/pirate fan I can also of course buy other stuff, but only because I find something interesting (City: the black bear and the beehive) but not for all the pieces. Say, 10%, 15%, the rest is not that useful and goes often on bricklink for sale.

Instead, if they did castle/pirate back, I'd buy sets for 100% of the pieces inside the set.

I believe that one of the three themes space/pirate/castle should be procuded every year. I'd push for pirate/castle but I'd find space appealing too.

[BrickJagger]

2 hours ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

I am a castle AND pirates fan. And when the pirates came out in 2015, I bought 3x every set. I own 7 chessboards. 4 ships. And so on.

On the other hand, every year I buy some sets from other themes but never that many! That's my point. As a castle/pirate fan I can also of course buy other stuff, but only because I find something interesting (City: the black bear and the beehive) but not for all the pieces. Say, 10%, 15%, the rest is not that useful and goes often on bricklink for sale.

Instead, if they did castle/pirate back, I'd buy sets for 100% of the pieces inside the set.

I believe that one of the three themes space/pirate/castle should be procuded every year. I'd push for pirate/castle but I'd find space appealing too.

This actually fits more in line with what I was trying to get at than when I typed it, thanks Itaria. 

Lots of AFOLs are fans of one of those three themes, sometimes two or them or maybe even all three. When Lego is not producing those kinds of sets, they're less likely to buy sets in general. Most of them don't like Nexo Knights because it's nothing like regular Castle, and therefore won't buy sets from that theme. I understand that. I just don't think that Lego is giving fans of those themes a lot to work with. You could point out a set here or a part there that somewhat feels like a Castle set, but it's not the real thing. I get no more enjoyment from buying an in-house Castle wannabe than I would buying a clone brand Castle. It's just not fun. 

One could make the argument that Lego doesn't need to cater to fans of these themes anymore because there aren't too many of them and they're only fans of 80's and 90's themes. That is not the case. Fans of KK2 are adults who can spend lots of money on new Castle sets that they did not have as kids. Pretty soon, fans of Fantasy Era and even Kingdoms will be able to do the same. Lego needs to keep the cycle of Castle sets moving so they retain that audience, however "small" or "insignificant", because they tend to be loyal supporters of the company itself, something that a decent chunk of Superheroes or Star Wars fans could not claim to be. No offense to anyone who is a fan of those themes, I'm talking about casuals who pick up Lego sets because they represent a Star Wars movie or their kid is into Iron Man and would love any toy related to the Avengers.

[x105Black]

Definitely.

The 3 themes I support above all others are Castle, Pirates, and Space.  Do I also buy sets from other themes?  Yes, but only to satisfy my desires for more minifigures and parts useful to Castle builds (and sometimes Pirates and Space).  I have been tempted to step outside of LEGO and buy from other similar brands, but have resisted that urge for a loyalty to LEGO.

And my spending would increase considerably should I actually have Castle, Pirates, and Space sets to choose from.  As I have said, I bought all but one 2013 Castle sets, and I bought a few from the 2015 Pirates line as well.  I would still do this, while purchasing the odd Star Wars or Superheroes sets that I currently buy.  In fact, LEGO would get more of my money as I wouldn't be spending as much on Bricklink to get the parts I want.

And yes, I believe this extends beyond AFOL purchasing to include the target market of kids from 8-16.

[Grover]

I think that's true of many of us.  I have been spending much of my money on old sets on BrickLink because there is no current castle line.  I'm kind of enjoying this reprieve as a chance to get all the old sets that I didn't get during my dark ages, but that won't last long.  Once I have all the old sets, it's not like I"m going to buy NK or something because it's the closest thing to castle that I can get.  I'd rather buy duplicates of old castle sets than that.

[MAB]

12 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

Lego needs to keep the cycle of Castle sets moving so they retain that audience, however "small" or "insignificant", because they tend to be loyal supporters of the company itself, something that a decent chunk of Superheroes or Star Wars fans could not claim to be. No offense to anyone who is a fan of those themes, I'm talking about casuals who pick up Lego sets because they represent a Star Wars movie or their kid is into Iron Man and would love any toy related to the Avengers.

There are many fans of the SW and SH themes that are just as passionate about Lego as anyone into Castle, Space and Pirates. But there are also the casuals, as you call them, that will also but these lines but are much less likely to buy Castle, Space and Pirates. 

As to loyalty, I don't think it matters too much, especially for children's ranges. It is better to appeal to kids that will be interested in Lego for maybe about 5-8 years during their childhood than it is to appeal to long term 'loyal' fans. A loyal fan might buy 5-10x as much as a kid, but the number of these fans is tiny compared to the number of kids getting Lego.

[BrickJagger]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

As to loyalty, I don't think it matters too much, especially for children's ranges. It is better to appeal to kids that will be interested in Lego for maybe about 5-8 years during their childhood than it is to appeal to long term 'loyal' fans. A loyal fan might buy 5-10x as much as a kid, but the number of these fans is tiny compared to the number of kids getting Lego.

If you're Lego, you would figure that it would be in your best interest to retain every market you have, no matter how large or small it is. Die-hard fans of the company are good to have at any point in time, and throwing them a bone every once every couple years would be a good idea. Instead they seem to be ignoring those fans, which is not good business.

[Aanchir]

Just now, BrickJagger said:

If you're Lego, you would figure that it would be in your best interest to retain every market you have, no matter how large or small it is. Die-hard fans of the company are good to have at any point in time, and throwing them a bone every once every couple years would be a good idea. Instead they seem to be ignoring those fans, which is not good business.

I feel like arguably AFOL Castle fans have been thrown a bone every few years. I mean, it's not as though all Castle fans are going to have an itch that only a non-licensed castle can scratch, and between this year's rumored Hogwarts D2C set, 2016's Disney Castle, and 2013's Tower of Orthanc, LEGO has done a reasonably good job keeping some kind of castle or medieval tower for the adult age set in their catalog for the past several years. Licensed castle sets seem like a pretty savvy way for LEGO to release castle-related products for adults while also "hedging their bets", so to speak — targeting specifically adult fans who want castles for castles' sake may be a risky bet, but a set that ties in with a trendy IP can potentially reach those fans and the many AFOLs and potential AFOLs who are interested more in these specific subjects or brands than in castles in a general sense.

[x105Black]

42 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

I mean, it's not as though all Castle fans are going to have an itch that only a non-licensed castle can scratch

Let's talk about those fans, though.  No bone thrown.

[icm]

2 hours ago, BrickJagger said:

If you're Lego, you would figure that it would be in your best interest to retain every market you have, no matter how large or small it is.

I haven't studied business, but it seems to me like that would <not> be in a corporation's best interest.  Such an attitude would lead to "having too many irons in the fire" and getting "spread too thin".  Any organization must pick and choose its priorities.  Some markets may be too small to be worth pursuing.  Whether or not the dedicated adult fans of Castle form a market that's too small for TLG to profitably pursue is not a question about which I choose to speculate.