What is purist? Thoughts...

[Batbrick(Nightwing)]

This has been on my mind lately...

What is purist?

It seems people are going too far with the term. I think most people consider purist when something is made by LEGO. But when you look deeper, like has Graphic Designers, and they are all different people. SO if LEGO hires a new one does that make it purist? Also if you call Christo, Eclipsegrafx, CitizenBrick, and Batbrick custom, wouldn't LEGO be a form of customizing? Printing on a piece of ABS Plastic to make it a character is what we're all doing. That's what we're all doing. So maybe if I sold a Jason Todd Batman, it wouldn't be custom because I'm not saying the design is LEGO made. So wouldn't it be Official per my company? Since LEGO is a company, just like the rest of us. And what if a Designer Resigned from LEGO but still has access to a printer? If he continues to make things would those be considered purist? I just thought I should share this. I have a lot of purist friends who I want to see it this way. All us people who print on LEGO are Graphic Designers, just like the ones at LEGO, so I think purist people should enjoy the printed works of other Designers, since it is essentially the same method as LEGO.

I'd like to hear your words,

Employee at Batbrick

[Big Cam]

I'll move this to the General forum since this is not Licensed specific.

[Omicron]

By technical terms, it isn't purism. Because you are doing it on the side, and it isn't official by Lego standards.

-Omi

[Leo604]

Taking this at face value, purist is just anything that's been officially sanctioned by and only by TLG; custom printings don't count, in my opinion. Not sure if a designer that gave up his job would still have access to any of TLG's printers for their products, but I wouldn't consider that purist because his work may not necessarily represent the views of the company.

[Omicron]

Not sure if a designer that gave up his job would still have access to any of TLG's printers for their products,

I know of a former employee that does, but it is his own printer and not Lego's.

-Omi

[Big Cam]

I know of a former employee that does, but it is his own printer and not Lego's.

-Omi

Once you know what kind of printer it is, chances are you could buy one, somewhere.

[Omicron]

Once you know what kind of printer it is, chances are you could buy one, somewhere.

Exactly.

-Omi

[Good Cragger Fan]

"Purist", to me, as one of the defintions, means that the pieces that are in question there are made by a factory that is owned, not contracted out to, by LEGO, so, as of right now, all LEGO pieces that are made made in China are not real LEGO, as LEGO does not own any factories in China right now.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Good Cragger Fan

[Faefrost]

The definition that I seem to find most often regarding "Purist" is that any and all plastic parts used must be specific and official lego parts. No cut altered or physically modified parts. No non lego brand parts. No custom created, clay sculpted, 3d printed parts etc.

The only points where this definition is typically relaxed a bit is for minifig customization, custom printing and signage, and in some cases ship sails and rigging.

Minifig customization is kind of recognized as its own special branch of the hobby. Custom Minifigs are normally great in MOC's if they are using just lego parts, with custom printing to create the new characters. Waterslide decals for new faces, etc. Minifigs with true custom made parts such as hand skulpted hair pieces are fine as Custom Minifigs and Minifig competitions. But maybe not to be used in Compettiton MOC's.

The same with custom stickers or waterslide decals for signs and markings for MOC's. As long as they are more or less "Lego Like". Sometimes you just need to add a sign or something to tell the needed story.

Much like Signage, I don't see an issue with custom cutting out the sails you need using an appropriate type of thin canvas. Or having said canvas printed on using an inject or infusion printer. For some more advanced Pirate / Ship MOC'ing you really have little choice. Some will also use string to create hand tied rigging. As long as it is the standard Lego black type string. Why not.

Custom printing on parts is more than fine if it can be done well and it is being done on real parts.

Now honestly unless some sort of a competition or contest is involved, all of this si nothing more than Nerd Baiting or Nerd squabbles. Lego is a medium to express your creativity, and any such Purist labels or rules are simply the path you choose to follow. The personal challenge you put before yourself.

Just my take on it.

[Luke_likes_Lego]

Some interesting takes so far!

I tend to think of this using cars as an analogy as customisation is common, and often obvious...so easier for my overworked brain

Some thoughts:

• If Brand X motor vehicle company hired a new designer, I wouldn't consider vehicles/parts created by Brand X before or after the designer's tenure as different in terms of purism
  
• If Brand X motor vehicle company hired a new designer, I would consider vehicles/parts created by Brand X before or after the designer's tenure as different in terms of whether I liked them more or less
  
• If a non Brand X designer, starts working for Brand X I wouldn't consider vehicles/parts created before or after the designer's tenure (or on weekends during their tenure) as genuine Brand X
  
• If a Brand X motor vehicle has a Brand Y bonnet I would think a 'purist' would want to replace it with a genuine part
  
• If a Brand X motor vehicle was pulled to pieces and rebuilt in a new form I wouldn't say it was a genuine Brand X car (whether by a highly talented designer or a poor designer)
  
• If a Brand X motor vehicle was pulled to pieces and rebuilt in a new form I would say it was a car made of genuine Brand X pieces
  
• If a Brand X motor vehicle part (element) was modified in an irreversible way, I wouldn't consider it a purist Brand X part any more
  
• If a Brand X motor vehicle part (element) was modified in an irreversible way, I would potentially see it as a positive thing, despite being non-purist
  
• I wouldn't consider a car with decals on the doors to be non-genuine
  
• I'm sure many motor vehicle purists still enjoy customisations, modifications, murals and decals that enhance some models...they just don't do it themselves I guess.
  

Is LEGO different? Personally I don't think so.

Like cars, I don't want to see something rare and beautiful desecrated, nor do I want to see the great talent of customisers suppressed for the sake of preserving something commonplace.

Cheers,

LLL

[LuxorV]

I always followed the idea that a 'purist' part is an official, un-modified LEGO piece, produced from design to final marketing by LEGO, with the brand mark and listed in their official parts' inventory (code and all the rest).

By extension, a 'purist' minifigure, just like a 'purist' MOC, is one created using original LEGO parts only. No modding, cutting, glueing, printing and so on.

Then again, this is just a way to categorise in a vast hobby. If you think about it for just one moment, TLG produces, and produced in the past, figures we would consider 'customs' following the above-mentioned criteria, if they did not come from their factories that way. For example, I think of the glued minifigs used in magnets and key-chains. They are built with modified LEGO parts (drilled holes, glued and or fused sections).

When I was a kid, I was horrified any time I saw one of my friends draw or paint their LEGO parts. Later, when I met the on-line community, I saw many approaches to the art of LEGO customisation. Some still give me the creeps, as I feel they brought it too far, but I can appreciate the art and effort spent in making most of them. Even if I'm the Minifig Customisation Workshop Mod here, I prefer to follow the 'purist' (as described above) route whenever possible (call it a challenge or what you prefer), but I know from personal experience that not everything we may try to achieve can be done via that route.

I think what bothers many people is the apparent dis-respect of the LEGO brick shown by customisers. Well, I can honestly say most of them (the more dedicated and talented ones for sure) display a great care for their creations and the source material. They travel the troubled 'custom' way to show what LEGO can achieve, even if it is not done by the official brand right at this moment.

On this last subject, I've been increasingly interested in seeing the variety of new official parts and designs recent waves, and the collectible minifigures' ones in particular, have introduced as of late. I may be wrong, but I think I can recognise the touch of some of our old customisers in some of them, and I think it's great that TLG is aware of the work people do in this little niche of the hobby and tries to bring (what hopefully are) the best ideas into their own design and production process.

Of course, many areas will remain outside of TLG range, especially those connected with weapons and other brands/licenses materials, but I strongly feel customisers are influencing LEGO's evolution just as much as MOCers do.

I'm sorry if my answer went off on a tangent of sorts in its development, but I thought it could be of use to stress these collateral points in the discussion.

[kibosh]

I'm shocked how often this topic comes up, and how divided people are on the topic. At the end of the day, who cares what others consider "pure"? What does it matter? Build what YOU like HOW you like.

The only time I could see this really being a concern is if you participate in a LUG. I recently joined my local LUG, and in our displays, the the only non-LEGO allowed is custom stickers. The rationale is LEGO uses stickers, so it's ok for displays. No modded nor painted parts though. Not sure if this is a LEGO rule, or just the way our LUG operates.

[Aanchir]

I'm shocked how often this topic comes up, and how divided people are on the topic. At the end of the day, who cares what others consider "pure"? What does it matter? Build what YOU like HOW you like.

The only time I could see this really being a concern is if you participate in a LUG. I recently joined my local LUG, and in our displays, the the only non-LEGO allowed is custom stickers. The rationale is LEGO uses stickers, so it's ok for displays. No modded nor painted parts though. Not sure if this is a LEGO rule, or just the way our LUG operates.

I think "purist" shouldn't be seen as better or worse than more complex customization, but it's still a very valid way of identifying a specific self-imposed design challenge. And identifying custom minifigures as "purist" is still a very important thing for those who prefer that sort of customizing, because it precludes suggestions like "why didn't you just paint X hairpiece instead" or "why didn't you just use this or that custom brand/clone brand piece" which go against the customizer's design intent.

In general, I think any MOC that uses only un-modified LEGO-brand products can be considered purist. The only more debateable techniques are those which TLG endorses in very specific circumstances, such as the cutting of string and Technic flex cable. I've seen various arguments for why cutting flex cable is/isn't purist, and in general I'd be willing to consider it purist as long as the flex cable is cut in a way that it remains a closed tube. Things like custom sails are not something I'd consider purist, but at the same time, the same ship can be considered purist if the sails are ignored, and can be judged according to those terms.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Aanchir

[Batbrick(Nightwing)]

My main point is this:

How is it custom if it's not sold by LEGO. If it's Brickarms, it's official because it's made by their company. Brickarms aren't LEGO, so I don't see how they are any more custom than LEGO. Same applies for the rest of the companies. We aren't branches of LEGO, so how are we custom. Like my 3D models. They happen to fit LEGO, but aren't LEGO, and I call them official pieces. But my other point is printing of a figure no matter who, is customizing to an extent.

[Vindicare]

Anything that comes from TLG's factories is purist. All those businesses you mentioned are third party customs. While they do/may use official figs as their platform, they still use custom prints. It's the same as painting a minifig, you're changing it's original state.

Expanding on the car analogy and to your recent point, Batbrick. Brickarms and such are customizers, just the same as a company who makes body kits or wheels or mirrors for cars. Sure, they fit on and are made for said car, but they don't have the company brand to go with it.

I don't think third party items are any less than official items, just another part of the hobby.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Legocrazy81

[Batbrick(Nightwing)]

Anything that comes from TLG's factories is purist. All those businesses you mentioned are third party customs. While they do/may use official figs as their platform, they still use custom prints. It's the same as painting a minifig, you're changing it's original state.

Expanding on the car analogy and to your recent point, Batbrick. Brickarms and such are customizers, just the same as a company who makes body kits or wheels or mirrors for cars. Sure, they fit on and are made for said car, but they don't have the company brand to go with it.

I don't think third party items are any less than official items, just another part of the hobby.

But the thing is it isn't LEGO. The thing that makes something LEGO is that it is made by LEGO. Brickarms happen to fit LEGO, but it isn't LEGO it's BrickArms. And official at that. What I'm trying to say is if us printers and 3D designers are 'customizing" LEGO is too. We're doing the same thing. Saying BrickArms is custom is like saying there is only one brand. If you buy a golf club by Brand X, and you buy Brand Y, does that make Brand Y less "Official" than Brand X? No, it doesn't LEGO is doing the same thing we are doing. All are just as Official and just as much Customizing. ABS plastic has to be moulded to be a LEGO piece. IT doesn't start off like that. It starts off as beads.

[ShaydDeGrai]

On one hand, I think Aanchir has a very valid point, for me, "purist" does not imply better or worse than "custom". On the other hand, I take a really strict view of what "purist" means.

Personally, when I think "purist" it means that a model was designed within a rigid set of constraints. The designer found clever ways of working around the limitations of his/her generic parts palette and produced something great without resorting to "shortcuts". A "purist" part for me is one that comes from TLG and is in essentially the same condition that it was the day it was packaged. This is a bit extreme in that it means stickers attached to the sticker sheet are "pure" as is the brick they get affixed to, but once the user puts the sticker on the brick it's not factory "pure" anymore, it's a hack - I don't care if the sticker came from TLG or the printer on my desk, _my_ definition of "pure" lego does not allow for applying adhesives to bricks once they've left the factory.

As for factory printed bricks, that goes back to the notion of working within the _generic_ parts palette. I don't care who designed the printing or how long they've worked for TLG. The thing that qualifies those parts as "pure" is that, like the decision to invest in a new mould for a new shape of part, official factory printing is a statement about the mass production and generic appeal of the decoration. Such parts are either generic enough (even with the decoration) to be useful in multiple sets or uniquely popular enough to warrant their own production line in the factory.

"Pure" LEGO to me is a design challenge. It means working with what you've got rather than what you might like; no strings, no decals, no third party elements (regardless of quality or popularity), no paper, no cut/melted/glued/sanded/etc FrankenElements, no painted/dyed/branded/Sharpie marker decorations, etc.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with not being "pure" Look at some of the great MOCs in the pirate forum - the sails and rigging on some of these frigates are beautiful, not "pure", but stunning. There's an entire Minifigure customization subculture dedicated to not limiting our little plastic people to their factory-intended configurations. As much as I detest stickers, I must admit that a custom sticker can be the icing on the cake when it comes to completing a design - I just don't delude myself into claiming it's "pure" afterwards. It's custom, it's creative, it's expressive; perhaps "pure" is overrated.

Of course "custom" (as opposed to "pure") has it's own extremes. I think it's one thing to _supplement_ an otherwise pure palette with items not produced by TLG (string, sails, capes, decals, Brickarms accessories, Big Ben Bricks train parts, etc.) It's another thing to permanently alter formerly "pure" parts (shaving off studs with an X-Acto knife, cropping mini-fig legs to half their height then gluing the feet back on afterwards, filling the underside of plates with automotive body filler and grinding them smooth to make inverse tiles, etc.). I've certainly done the former from time to time, but I can't see myself ever doing the later (for the purposes of a MOC - as part of prototyping a new piece sure, but not for a MOC).

And for the record, to return to the car analogy, I would NOT consider a classic muscle car "pure" if it had been repainted or bore 3rd party decals, etc. Other than the oil, the gas and the odometer reading I would expect all factory parts in their factory configuration in order to qualify as "pure" (right down to the paint job and the crappy speakers).

[davee123]

Brickarms happen to fit LEGO, but it isn't LEGO it's BrickArms. And official at that.

I think what you're saying is that, yes, it IS "official", just not "official LEGO". It's "an official *BrickArms* product". IE, you want people to explicitly use a qualifier like "LEGO" in tandem with the word "official", like "This is an official LEGO element" rather than saying "This is an official element". But really, the qualifier "LEGO" is implied. IE, we're LEGO hobbyists, not "plastic-bricks-built-to-the-LEGO-established-stud-and-tube-system" hobbyists. Sure, some of us aren't brand-loyal, and don't mind mixing in other products other than LEGO products specifically, but by-and-large, the expectation is that LEGO is the ONLY official entity when it comes to this hobby.

DaveE

Edited March 28, 2013 by davee123

[Omicron]

How is it custom if it's not sold by LEGO.

Because it's not sold by Lego and modified for whatever purpose.

If it's Brickarms, it's official because it's made by their company. Brickarms aren't LEGO, so I don't see how they are any more custom than LEGO.

Because BrickArms is custom accessories for Lego.

cus·tom·ize

verb

cus·tom·ized, cus·tom·iz·ing.

to modify or build according to individual or personal specifications or preference: to customize an automobile.

The "build according" part is what BrickArms is doing.

We aren't branches of LEGO, so how are we custom.

Because you aren't a branch of Lego.

They happen to fit LEGO, but aren't LEGO, and I call them official pieces.

And that's what customization is. You are literally answering your own questions here.

I'm really not understanding this topic now when your original post is defending the notion that you're work isn't custom because you printed on it, yet your posts say it is custom because it isn't official Lego.

It's custom because you are altering the product. Even if you don't advertise it as custom Lego, in the end you still altered it and it is compatible with Lego. Therefore custom.

-Omi

[Werlu Ulcur]

For me it's pretty simple: it will only be Lego (aka "purist") if it's made by Lego, ie, you can find the part/piece on Lego's catalogs. An M-16 (by BrickArms, for instance), is not made by Lego, so it's not an official Lego part. I consider it to be "Lego-compatible", and the same goes for a customized minifig, even if the base fig was an official Lego minifig.

But more important then that, does it matter? No. You want/need a rocket launcher for your creation, but you can't make one out of Lego's official parts, so what's the problem in using a Lego-compatible part (once again, like from BrickArms)? You made a MOC using a gazillion Lego bricks but your Army squad needs a rocket launcher to look just right, what to do? Use a nice custom piece. I draw the line with stuff like using glue in the build or physically altering a piece, but using a nice custom Lego-compatible piece or minifig? Why not.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Werlu Ulcur

[Paul Boratko]

I always thought that a "Purist" was someone who only built with unaltered official Lego parts and also followed Lego's legal building techniques...

I know when I used to go to shows that there were somewhat strict rules that no displays were allowed to contain any non-Lego products, but many displays had custom minifgs and custom minifig weapons...

Edited March 29, 2013 by Paul Boratko

[tomdobs55]

Lego's legal building techniques...

What exactly are Lego's legal and illegal building techniques? I've heard the phrase thrown around here a lot but never knew some examples.

[Luke_likes_Lego]

At the end of the day, who cares what others consider "pure"? What does it matter? Build what YOU like HOW you like.

You're right of course....but people seem to love talking about it !!

The only time I could see this really being a concern is if you participate in a LUG.

...and if you sold/bought something as, for example, as "100% 'pure' LEGO". Ideally, buyer and seller expectations would match.

LLL

[AndyC]

What exactly are Lego's legal and illegal building techniques? I've heard the phrase thrown around here a lot but never knew some examples.

http://cache.lego.com/downloads/brickfest2006/brickstress.ppt

But the thing is it isn't LEGO. The thing that makes something LEGO is that it is made by LEGO. Brickarms happen to fit LEGO, but it isn't LEGO it's BrickArms. And official at that. What I'm trying to say is if us printers and 3D designers are 'customizing" LEGO is too. We're doing the same thing. Saying BrickArms is custom is like saying there is only one brand. If you buy a golf club by Brand X, and you buy Brand Y, does that make Brand Y less "Official" than Brand X? No, it doesn't LEGO is doing the same thing we are doing. All are just as Official and just as much Customizing. ABS plastic has to be moulded to be a LEGO piece. IT doesn't start off like that. It starts off as beads.

"Custom" is perhaps a poor word to describe it, but it's what the community has generally adopted and so we're basically stuck with it. Essentially what is meant by "custom" parts is anything which is either modified original LEGO or non-LEGO brand parts. Something being "custom" doesn't necessarily mean it's worse (or better) however there are many people who don't like using non-LEGO pieces and so avoid them. And even amongst those "purists", there are sliding scales of what people consider acceptable: some people won't even use non-LEGO string or rubber bands, others maybe draw the line at home made stickers. Everybody is different, but to some extent almost everyone in the hobby constrains themselves to some degree - after all what would be the point of building something out of bricks at all if you can just mold exactly the end product you were aiming for?

[Batbrick(Nightwing)]

It seems like people are relating the "Third Party" to LEGO too much. By them saying that anything non-LEGO is custom, that's like saying everything in the world is not official. Seems a but steep, I know, but they are separate brands and I can't understand why people can't use to brands and have to alienate the other one that isn't as popular and call it custom and call the other official. MegaBloks is a big established company, but I think just because most people use LEGO's they try and call the other one "non-official". Also if altering a brick makes it custom, w all have lots of customs because bricks get minuscule scratched and that would change the brick. That wouldn't be any different from cutting the brick in half. It's still modifying it. IMO, Anything except LEGO is not Official TO LEGO, per LEGO Standards. LEGO would be non-official for BrickArms since it isn't a BrickArms product. It just seems like people are seeing LEGO as a default.