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Another case of plagiarism?


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#1 Sariel

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:38 PM

I have come across something interesting at Brickshelf today. Take a look at this JCB 465 front-end loader: http://www.brickshel...y.cgi?i=5691638
And now at my model published 2 months ago: http://www.brickshel...y.cgi?i=5634749

Posted Image Posted Image

They are not identical, the details differ and so do some mechanical solutions, apparently. Still, I dare say that the similarity is striking: the whole arm, the wheels, the mudguards, even the stickers are practically identical.
Now, while I don't mind my models being copied, it's a different matter when a copy is slightly altered and submitted to a contest as somebody's original work, as seems to be the case here. As I understand from the photos, this copy was an entry in a LUGSK LEGO Sutaz 2012 contest. I have contacted the organizer about it to see what he'll say. Can anybody identify the person behind this copy?

It can be, of course, that this copy was submitted as a copy, with a proper credit to the original author, but there is such info to be seen anywhere on these photos. I can believe that this was a case of simple ignorance/forgetfulness, but the fact that the copy is altered can indicate a malicious intent. My model happens to be based on a very rare and specific variant of the JCB 456 - most variants have different markings and different color scheme (example: http://static.mascus...ht,8de95665.jpg ). More importantly, most variants have shorter arm painted yellow, and I specifically chose a special variant with a long arm painted black. The fact that this copy has identical color scheme, identical arm and identical stickers in identical places shows - in my opinion - that it was based on my model more heavily than on the original machine.

Please note that I don't want to cause too much stir. It's not a big thing, really, I don't want this contestant to lose his prize or anything. It would just be nice if he was discouraged from this kind of activity in the future, and if the contest's organizer was made aware of this incident.

Edited by Sariel, 10 December 2012 - 12:42 PM.

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#2 hrontos

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:54 PM

According to the website, he did not get any price as organizers/other participants notified that it is a copy of your creation.

https://www.facebook...&type=3

The guy that built it is 16 years old, so he probably does not have that respect to other creators "built up" yet. He participated also with a truck, I don't know if at least that one is an original.

EDIT: forgot "not" in "... he did not get any price..." :blush:

Edited by hrontos, 10 December 2012 - 12:58 PM.


#3 allanp

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:55 PM

It would appear that he has deffinately seen your model and taken alot of inpsiration from it. It would also appear that he has come up with different mechanicle solutions as you said. This is strange, you would have thought that if he wanted to copy your work and submit it as his own, he would have copied the inner workings whilst changing the outside appearence, here it seems the opposite is true. He's come up with his own machine and then made it look like somebody elses! There is no question of plagerism tho. Too much has been copied for it to be entirely his own creation. I would expect that the organisers at least tell the contestant to put your name on the entry as well as his as a co-designer.

Edit: Thanks for the update hrontos, I didn't realise the contest had already been run.

Edited by allanp, 10 December 2012 - 01:00 PM.

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#4 PsyKater

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:56 PM

Did you contact the contest's organizer yet?
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#5 piterx

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:18 PM

i don't know how i could face something like in this case...
yeah it's true, he copied your model but you haven't lost nothing...
i mean, it's not fair copying a model and partecipating to a contest, but it depends only on the other people morality...
no one has a copyright on his models... and if i think that a solution that someone else found, could fit perfectly into my model, it shouldnt be a problem if i adopt it too...
maybe copying an entire model is a display of lack of fantasy :P but i dont know...

i share my models because i'd be happy if people build something based on my idea... it's just knowing where is the line that separates "im happy i gave you inspiration" between "you copied my model"
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#6 Sariel

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:40 PM

Thanks, I got email from the organizer saying they have recognized the copy and that it won nothing.

View Postpiterx, on 10 December 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

yeah it's true, he copied your model but you haven't lost nothing...

I never said I lost anything. Like I said in my first post - I only want to discourage the "copier" from doing it again, and to make the organized aware of this incident.

View Postpiterx, on 10 December 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

i mean, it's not fair copying a model and partecipating to a contest, but it depends only on the other people morality...
no one has a copyright on his models...

Which is precisely why it's good to try to maintain some kind of "fair play" rules. I don't mind my models being copied, I actually go great lengths to make it easy. But entering a copy to a contest is unfair - and not even to me, but to other contestants. If we let it slip once, other contestants will be tempted to go easy way and just copy stuff too. That's not the kind of contests I'd like to see.


View Postpiterx, on 10 December 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

and if i think that a solution that someone else found, could fit perfectly into my model, it shouldnt be a problem if i adopt it too...

"Solution" can be a gearbox, a suspension system, not an entire appearance of the model. Then again, copy what you want, just don't try to win contests using somebody else's work. And as for the mechanical solutions - my model uses costly components, L motors, small actuators and such. It's possible that his copy is different mechanically simply to cut the costs.
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#7 hrontos

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:45 PM

View Postpiterx, on 10 December 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

i don't know how i could face something like in this case...
yeah it's true, he copied your model but you haven't lost nothing...
i mean, it's not fair copying a model and partecipating to a contest, but it depends only on the other people morality...
no one has a copyright on his models... and if i think that a solution that someone else found, could fit perfectly into my model, it shouldnt be a problem if i adopt it too...
maybe copying an entire model is a display of lack of fantasy :P but i dont know...

i share my models because i'd be happy if people build something based on my idea... it's just knowing where is the line that separates "im happy i gave you inspiration" between "you copied my model"

It is not necessarily only about original creator and some loss.
This guy stated there that the building time was 15 hours. I am pretty sure Sariel and other contestants needed much more efforts for their original creations.
To copy somebody's other creation and put it into contest is an unfair advantage comparing to other contestants.

#8 piterx

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:53 PM

yeah guys i agree :)
probably "punish one to educate the rest" is good in this case...mainly because of the contest...
he's been an idiot....but you know: world is full of idiots :P
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#9 allanp

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:40 PM

It's probably more of a case of "don't reward laziness"
Even the best can be made better, but most important is to be excellent to each other and party on dudes!!!!!!

#10 tmctiger

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

Hi Sariel,

I do not understand you. I have now closely looked at your model and the model of the other guy and I have to notice that the two models are not even close to be a identical. The Guy decided to build the same Machine as you but since this is based on a real thing it naturally looks identical ;) - And you think no one is allowed any more to build this front-end loader because you first build one?

And in the details you can see that the model is completely different assembled than yours.
The only thing I can identify which is truly identical to your model are the rims. And I think you are not the first who did rims in Lego this way ;)

The point with the stickers is also obsolete. This model is (again) based on a real thing - and for this particular front-end loader the stickers have to be placed at exact this positions.

So basically you complain that someone build the same model than you? Serious?

I would understand you if the model is a plain rip off of yours - that would be not ok. But this model is clearly a complete different solution than yours. So I can't see any plagiarism here.

I would recommend the other posters  ,which meant that this is a copy, to have look at the images ;)

regards,
tmctiger

Edited by tmctiger, 10 December 2012 - 02:49 PM.


#11 DLuders

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:49 PM

Sariel's model:
Posted Image


KUPOV's model:

Posted Image

#12 mobi

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 02:50 PM

Quote

"Solution" can be a gearbox, a suspension system, not an entire appearance of the model.


Gearbox/suspension is often probably the hardest part :classic:

With more and more blogs and forums on Lego, copying will be even harder to detect in future.

#13 JopieK

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:12 PM

No offence, but Sariel, I think you also did plagiarism:

Posted Image

Both of you might have used the same original model? He had a lot of fun building, he did not gain any money and thats how it works. I know a Dutch AFOL that saw his creation copied by LEGO. You should be proud that someone uses your creation as inspiration shouldn't you?! (It is entirely different if someone would steal your instructions and copy them and put them for sale on ebay or so like some people do apparently).

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#14 Zblj

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:17 PM

Doesnt look like the usual copy/paste model to me, sorry.

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#15 hrontos

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:25 PM

It is definitely not a typical plagiarism. Dimensions are again different, Sariel's model is 2 studs wider.
This is very similar to the situation with the Sheepo's and JaapTechnic's LandRover. The same real machine results in very similar models.
Taking into account the building time (only 15 hours for both models), the guy is either quite talented or was at least inspired by Sariel's techniques on some details.

#16 Balrog

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:37 PM

This can't be proper plagiarism. The model from Kupov is clearly lacking a hamster!

#17 Chuk1972

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:45 PM

I had to join up to comment on this matter as I am a person who absolutely hates plagiarism in building. But also quick to defend something for which plagairism is being accused of. I see 4 things on this model which are similar or the same, but overall, I would say 95% of this model is original and quite different from the one that is claiming to be copied from. If you take away the wheels(Which I have seen somewhere before) and the round disk piece in the front, I see nothing that is remotely the same. I think an apology for false accusation may be in order.

Edited by Chuk1972, 10 December 2012 - 03:46 PM.


#18 Sariel

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:46 PM

View Posttmctiger, on 10 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

I have now closely looked at your model and the model of the other guy and I have to notice that the two models are not even close to be a identical. The Guy decided to build the same Machine as you but since this is based on a real thing it naturally looks identical ;) - And you think no one is allowed any more to build this front-end loader because you first build one?

Please, at least try to be serious. It's the same very rare & specific variant of the real machine, in the same scale, with the same color scheme, identical stickers, identical arm, wheels, and a lot of other elements. You may have your opinion, but the fact that the organizer of the contest recognized it as a copy BEFORE I even contacted him speaks for itself.

View Posttmctiger, on 10 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

The only thing I can identify which is truly identical to your model are the rims. And I think you are not the first who did rims in Lego this way ;)

OK, just out of curiosity - show me any other example of rims done the same exact way.

View Posttmctiger, on 10 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

The point with the stickers is also obsolete. This model is (again) based on a real thing - and for this particular front-end loader the stickers have to be placed at exact this positions.

Please, read exactly when you reply to a message. I have explained that most variants of the 456 have different stickers. This is a very rare one, I've been searching for it for a long time.

View Posttmctiger, on 10 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

So basically you complain that someone build the same model than you? Serious?

On the subject of being serious - read my first post again.


View Posttmctiger, on 10 December 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

So I can't see any plagiarism here.

Neither can this doggy:
Posted Image

View PostJopieK, on 10 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

No offence, but Sariel, I think you also did plagiarism

How exactly?

View PostJopieK, on 10 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

He had a lot of fun building, he did not gain any money and thats how it works.

He entered a competition. Explain to other competitors how this is fair.

View PostJopieK, on 10 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

I know a Dutch AFOL that saw his creation copied by LEGO.

Very interesting, I'd love to see some sort of a proof.


View PostJopieK, on 10 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

You should be proud that someone uses your creation as inspiration shouldn't you?!

I'm very proud that someone copies my creation. I'm very ashamed that someone enters it in a competition, against people who were trying to build something on their own.

View PostChuk1972, on 10 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

I think an apology for false accusation may be in order.

Two things:
1. The contest organizer recognized this as a copy even before I contacted him.
2. Re-read my first post, where I explain what makes this variant of 465 so very particular.

Guys, I do appreciate your answers, but JCB 456 is not exactly a common machine to model. I have never seen it at that scale before, if I saw it at all. And now suddenly there's a model with the same special arm, rare color scheme and non-standard stickers as mine. Yeah, that looks nothing like a copy.

PS. Just checked to be sure - there are exactly 2 other 456s on entire Brickshelf:
1: http://www.brickshel...y.cgi?i=4857731
2: http://www.brickshel...y.cgi?i=4552454

So, apparently it's possible to build the same model very differently.

Edited by Sariel, 10 December 2012 - 03:57 PM.

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#19 Chuk1972

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:57 PM

Sariel, you are one of the best builders in the world, no one can deny you that, but you are also very fearless and a bit egotistic in your posts and I think you need to come off of your high horse.We all get it, you wrote a book.

#20 Sariel

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:02 PM

I don't see how is this in any way related to any book whatsoever. Explain, please - right now your post sounds like a personal grudge.
I would also appreciate relating in some coherent way to the points I've made in my post. That will surely take us further than calling me names.
I'm under a strong impression that you blow this thing out of this proportion. I have explained from the start that it's not really the copy that is the problem, it's entering it in a competition. How would you feel if you were another contestant in it? How is my concern on that egoistic, exactly?

Edited by Sariel, 10 December 2012 - 04:03 PM.

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#21 Chuk1972

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:02 PM

View PostSariel, on 10 December 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:


Two things:
1. The contest organizer recognized this as a copy even before I contacted him.
2. Re-read my first post, where I explain what makes this variant of 465 so very particular.

Guys, I do appreciate your answers, but JCB 456 is not exactly a common machine to model. I have never seen it at that scale before, if I saw it at all. And now suddenly there's a model with the same special arm, rare color scheme and non-standard stickers as mine. Yeah, that looks nothing like a copy.

PS. Just checked to be sure - there are exactly 2 other 456s on entire Brickshelf:
1: http://www.brickshel...y.cgi?i=4857731
2: http://www.brickshel...y.cgi?i=4552454

So, apparently it's possible to build the same model very differently.

For every one thing that you can find on this "Plagiarized" model that is the same or similar, I could point out at least 10 things that are different.

#22 Sariel

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:07 PM

I said from the start that it's not identical. Now, look at the four 456s existing at whole Brickshelf and answer yourself, which two look strangely similar?

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#23 Chuk1972

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:12 PM

I have no personal grudge with you at all, in fact I have more respect for you as a builder than I do anyone else, but not as much respect as a poster because your mannerisms are quite often rather crass.

View PostSariel, on 10 December 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

I said from the start that it's not identical. Now, look at the four 456s existing at whole Brickshelf and answer yourself, which two look strangely similar?

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

They are similar in the aspect that they both have technic interiors and Brick exteriors, but they are built entirely different. Posting a picture of that 20 piece model in the first picture verifies what I have described with your attitude. Didn't you post up a project on here a few months ago and use someone else's gearbox design and not credit them or even acknowledge that you were using someone's idea?

#24 Sariel

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:13 PM

Sorry if you felt offended, but then it's not me who used words like "egoistic" or brought some book into it out of the blue, and never explained his meaning. I'm fine with fearless, though ;)

View PostChuk1972, on 10 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Posting a picture of that 20 piece model in the first picture verifies what I have described with your attitude.

I have posted all 456s that can be found at Bricklink. What's unclear about this and how does it speak of my attitude? Should I only post selected ones? You would call that suspicious, I guess.


View PostChuk1972, on 10 December 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Didn't you post up a project on here a few months ago and use someone else's gearbox design and not credit them or even acknowledge that you were using someone's idea?

No, I didn't. I posted a project with my gearbox using control method by someone else, which - I regret - I could not credit at that time because I couldn't find the link to the original version. That was clarified, and the person in question turned out to have a copy of my another mechanism in their folder.

Edited by Sariel, 10 December 2012 - 04:50 PM.

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#25 Chuk1972

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:14 PM

I don't have anything else to say on this subject as I feel that you jumped the gun and made an accusation that didn't warrant it.  you are a top builder, but need better social skills.




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