Is anyone else fearing that Nexo Knights is meaning NO new castle them

[thetang22]

Well, that's true of most real world events. I think it's safe to say at this point...."Lego History" doesn't change, as it is well documented by everyone, rather than just the "winners" as in much of the rest of history.

[Lyichir]

Well, that's true of most real world events. I think it's safe to say at this point...."Lego History" doesn't change, as it is well documented by everyone, rather than just the "winners" as in much of the rest of history.

I mean, I dunno... there are parts of Lego history that certainly do fade into obscurity. In this case the "losers" might be considered to be things like unreleased sets, rare promotional sets or combo packs, and wildly unpopular themes like Galidor or Znap. The fact that obscure Lego history is still being discovered is evidence that there's an awful lot that wasn't well-documented by the community around the time of its initial development or release.

[Aanchir]

I mean, I dunno... there are parts of Lego history that certainly do fade into obscurity. In this case the "losers" might be considered to be things like unreleased sets, rare promotional sets or combo packs, and wildly unpopular themes like Galidor or Znap. The fact that obscure Lego history is still being discovered is evidence that there's an awful lot that wasn't well-documented by the community around the time of its initial development or release.

I think the discussion was more about about "LEGO portrayals of history" rather than "the history of LEGO". But even then, I'd say there have been changes over the years. Fantasy Era, for instance, was a considerable departure from the human-vs-human Castle themes that had come before it. There are certain elements of how kids perceive medieval history that are iconic and unlikely to change radically over the years, but even so, trending pop culture portrayals of medieval history CAN influence how modern kids perceive it.

But it's true that how kids perceive the distant past tends to be a lot more stable than how they perceive the future, which is why we see LEGO Castle and LEGO Pirates revisiting their roots much more often than, say, LEGO Space.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Aanchir

[SirBlake]

Ironic that use of the word "history" in the historic forum has done such a good job of derailing a thread in it.

[thetang22]

I mean, I dunno... there are parts of Lego history that certainly do fade into obscurity. In this case the "losers" might be considered to be things like unreleased sets, rare promotional sets or combo packs, and wildly unpopular themes like Galidor or Znap. The fact that obscure Lego history is still being discovered is evidence that there's an awful lot that wasn't well-documented by the community around the time of its initial development or release.

You have some points of consideration. Luckily, within the context of a Lego Castle hotel....with an idea as niche as that, they have to rely on the well-known content to "sell" the concept to potential customers. They might have minor references to some of the more obscure content, but for something like that to be successful, it has to take inspiration from "the hits".

Ironic that use of the word "history" in the historic forum has done such a good job of derailing a thread in it.

That's a pretty funny point .

While on that point, I do have to say that, while I really enjoy this community, I've always been flabbergasted about the moderation of off-topic content here. I'm quite surprised this discussion hasn't yet been policed by the mods considering this very point, based on past experience. I've been a member of many internet hobby forum communities over the past 15+ years, and can say confidently that this forum takes the cake ***BY FAR*** when it comes to policing posts veering off-topic. Almost to the point where it seems like posts going off topic is considered just as bad as going aggressively psychotic on another forum member. It just seems strange the level of importance mods seem to give it. I understand the inspiration for why it's done....it's just that that inspiration is basically true for nearly all forums (not just Eurobricks), yet this is the only place to take it to such an extreme. All those other forums have still been pleasant places to be part of, and still easy enough to navigate and find topics of interest. I just don't understand why it is taken SOOOOO seriously here when so many other places have a much more lax approach and still manage to have successful forums.

[Artanis I]

Ironic that use of the word "history" in the historic forum has done such a good job of derailing a thread in it.

Better than talking about Nexo Knights!

While on that point, I do have to say that, while I really enjoy this community, I've always been flabbergasted about the moderation of off-topic content here. I'm quite surprised this discussion hasn't yet been policed by the mods considering this very point, based on past experience... etc

The "information" threads are heavily "on/off topic" policed, but threads like this one are purely discussion of opinions and the mods usually only step in if we are either spamming up the board with useless posts or things are getting heated. Mods tend to respond to reported posts. If no one is getting annoyed by these posts, no one will report them. If we clogged up a 2017 theme rumour/discussion thread (that people follow to find new information) with an off topic conversation, people would report it, and rightly so.

[DraikNova]

Personally, I'm guessing the reason that most girls tend to identify with characters in the first person is that there aren't anywhere near enough female characters in media in general. Rather than being able to pick and choose elements of various characters to identify with, they are often given just one character, which they then feel the need to project all of themselves onto.

Most of what I hate about the "themes specifically for girls" business is that it falls into and reinforces the moronic and sexist assumption that boys are the default. In general, I feel that no theme should market specifically to boys or girls. Just market to everyone. There's not that much of a difference. Just a lot of fools trying to tell kids that there is.

On-topic, though, I'd like to say that Nexo Knights, besides specifically addressing my need for a Sci-Fi theme, also fixes the issue I had with almost all castle themes: a lack of creative monsters. We always just had generic orcs, skeletons and dragons. Sure, with the exception of Ultimate Lavaria and the globlins, all of the Nexo Knights monsters are humanoid, but at least lava monsters is a broader category with more opportunities to give things character than the generic Tolkien/D&D orcs or the "and then a skeleton popped out" style villains. Taking into account the fact that 2017 Nexo Knights seems to be going for gargoyle-esque villains, things seem pretty good on that front.

However, I feel that some classic castle stuff would actually improve Nexo Knights. Just some plain, unadorned ruins would help spruce up the world a little and get the sets to align more with the world as it is depicted in the show (i.e. an exploration of what happens to a stereotypical fantasy world afterwards).

[Artanis I]

Next year's sets look even LESS castly... I wonder if that opens a door a bit sooner or not

[Oederland]

While Ninjago was loosely based on "East Asian history/mythology" (loosely because while there are ninjas and Eastern-style dragons, the rest about sceleton armys, snakes and such is not particularly linked to that "culture"), or at least how these are anticipated in Western countries, mixed with some sci-fi elements, NK is the same for medieval history. Even if the association is loose you can't deny that it works with elements from Middle Ages, which can be recognized easily by children. Accordingly, I don't think we will see any classic knights in the nearer future.

I also doubt we will see any other historic theme like Romans and Greeks simply because they are rather specific and can be considered a niche. Playmobil has done so for the Romans/Egypts, and given they currently repeat the Roman theme it must have been successful enough, however it is an additional theme and not a replacement for knights. This also has to do with different sales policies, Playmobil themes like knights seem to stay in the shelves till it is replaced by the next knights' theme and they have more on-going themes at the same time.

Anyway. Maybe you have to put the question differently, why does TLG decide to come up with a theme like NK at all, instead of a "classic" medieval theme with knights. And here it becomes interesting in my opinion. In my childhood in the early 90ies (I'm from Germany) I had Lego sets (especially City, a variety of smaller Space sets, Knights sets, and a few from the Pirates theme) and Playmobil sets (mainly knights) - this might sound like a lot, but many of those were from my older brother ;-) . Looking back I would say I was playing with Lego knights as I liked Lego in general, and I was playing with Playmobil knights as I liked Playmobil knights. The fun about Lego was you could build your own structures, the fun about Playmobil was to have plenty of details. Just to give an impression of Playmobil sets from that era (these are no official names) for those who are not familiar: Big castle, small castle, knights' tournament, knights' training, knight's tent, king's throne, prisoner's transport, dragon knights, catapult, arbalester. During that period (all those sets were released in 1993) you got a wide variety of fractions, which is one part of why people seem to be fascinated by knights, heraldy and such. After all it's nice to have different fractions for a battle or a tournament. TLC still used to have different (human) fractions in the 90ies as well.

Now, when looking at the development since then, we can assert that Playmobil has turned to (almost) "individual" knights. Back then they already differed with regard to hair, but nowadays every knight seems to have individual armour, clothes, ... In contrast, even when buying a complete Lego theme you end up with several repetitions of the same three or four knights/soldiers. Accordingly, Lego might not be too attractive any more for children of a certain age. Not because there hasn't been any progress, there are much more details compared to sets of the 90ies, but because there has been more progress for other brands.

However, I wouldn't want to brake it down to one brand vs. another. This is why I mentioned Playmobil, as you can see some changes as well in their knights themes. 1) They don't have as much variety with regard to knights sets as they used to have. 2) They went the route "good fraction" vs. "bad fraction", clearly expressed by darker colours for the bad fraction, angry faces, ... - which we also know pretty well from TLC. This might point to the following: 1) Children don't play with knights as long as they used to play in the past, and/or they play with more themes / other toys during a certain period of time. Accordingly, there is also no need to release that many different sets. 2) Children are able to imagine "story lines" to a lesser extent, either because the new media have fried their brains, and/or because they play with certain toys at a younger age. With the last sets TLC clearly produced sets aiming at younger children, considering the style of the catapult and such, which would go in line with this assumption.

Finally, considering Ninjago and NK, TLC releases sets with additional play features, it's less about "bricking". They have also added the aspect of "collecting". When I was young I was not worrying about missing out a particular set too much except if it were very special. Nowadays it seems to be more about "these particular x heros work together to fight those y bad heros". Interestingly, for themes like Ninjago and NK there is a wide range of different sets and special equipment.

Thus I'd say, the period of time during which children play with certain types of toys, the more "traditional ones", might have shortened, and/or these themes might have to compete against others. At some point a company has to decide on how to go on then. For TLC the conclusion seems to be that there is no use in releasing traditional knights sets every year, and that they come up with some more action-oriented, cross-over themes, which are also unique compared to what other brands offer (at least at the beginning, Playmobil came up with an Eastern dragon knights theme as well; I would be very surprised if it hadn't been inspired by Ninjago), and with which they seem to aim at older children. There are also magazines, merchandising products, with which children can be tied to the theme and your particular brand more closely. After all, if children like ninjas or knights in general, you can't benefit that much, as they might just buy a schoolbag with *some* knight or ninja instead of the TLC character.

But once you stop releasing sets regularly, and/or once they become too simplified, and/or it's just too few sets the whole theme might not be attractive enough for children and their parents to start with. Then it's also less attractive for the brand to invest money on this theme.

Based on my experience from Germany, where you can buy Lego and Playmobil in (almost) every toy shop and also in large supermarkets, I have the impression that TLC somewhat gave up on traditional knights (not completely, but the themes and sets are a little half-hearted IMO), while Playmobil goes on with the theme more extensively still, although to a lesser extent when compared to the 90ies. Maybe there's not sufficient demand for two different brands releasing knights sets. In any case, if I had a child, and if he/she were interested in Medieval knights, I would go to the next shop and probably end up with Playmobil as this is what I get in the shop. In contrast, if it were into a sci-fi cross-over knight thingy theme, we would buy Lego. Maybe this is actually what the two companies are aiming for, having different products. When TLC's knights turned towards fantasy Playmobil had traditional knights. Nowadays TLC offers sci-fi knights, while Playmobil provides knights with fantasy elements.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Oederland

[Aanchir]

I wouldn't say LEGO has given up on traditional knights. Remember, Nexo Knights concept development started in 2009 or so. So it's an idea LEGO has been polishing for a while, waiting for just the right time to launch it. And it's hard to think of a better time for a theme like Nexo Knights than 2016. A TV-driven Big Bang theme (Legends of Chima) and an app-driven sci-fi theme (Ultra Agents) had both just retired, creating a conspicuous vacancy for a new theme fitting both of those categories. It had also been three years since the launch of the previous LEGO Castle theme, meaning the time for a new one had rolled back around. And of course, the previous two iterations of LEGO Castle had both been very traditional in their scope, so LEGO probably felt like a wackier take on the Castle concept would stand out from their other recent offerings and really give kids the sense of something fresh and new that nobody had experienced before.

When Nexo Knights ends I imagine LEGO will adopt a very different strategy for the next iteration of Castle, just like how Fantasy Era was very different than Knights Kingdom II or Kingdoms was very different than Fantasy Era. I don't totally agree that collecting has superseded building, since there are still highly successful themes like City and Friends that don't have anywhere near as much of a collecting component as Bionicle or Ninjago or Nexo Knights. When the next take on Castle comes around, it probably won't be sticking to the "big bang" playbook, meaning that it might be able to take a much less character-driven, collecting-oriented approach. They wouldn't want it to feel like the same exact theme all over again, after all.

Your comparisons with Playmobil are interesting, but I don't feel like Playmobil's products play a big role in what products the LEGO Group releases. In the United States, Playmobil is not nearly as much of a fixture in the toy landscape as you describe from your experience in Germany. I am not aware of Playmobil being a major fixture in Asia, either, and that's a major region where the LEGO Group hopes to expand their business. Also, Nexo Knights has been in development for too long for LEGO to have fully anticipated what other toy companies might have out by the time it launched.

[Oederland]

On 27.9.2016 at 11:25 PM, Aanchir said:

Your comparisons with Playmobil are interesting, but I don't feel like Playmobil's products play a big role in what products the LEGO Group releases.

Re-reading my initial comment (by the way, sorry for the long text...) it sounds indeed a bit too much one brand vs. the other. Think of this as a German snap-shot of a "let's buy some toys related to knights" scenario, what can you see when entering a German shop. However, when looking at the time courses of their knights themes we see some analogies, and we see differences. One analogy is that there seem to be less sets a theme, one analogy is the "individualization" of the minifigs. This is much more advanced for Playmobil though. The analogies are interesting, as they might well reflect a change in interests and preferences in children in general (and not just a company's decision to come up with a different interpretation of a traditional theme).

On 27.9.2016 at 11:25 PM, Aanchir said:

I don't totally agree that collecting has superseded building

Well, not superseded, but bricking seems to be less important in some themes and it is only one of several "play options" (think of the spinners, flyers from Ninjago; or something completely unrelated, different variants of the "flick-fire missile" feature). This also relates to the more specific bricks, the more complex and unique they are the more difficult it is to come up with a "basic" structure - although you can still come up with your very own and unique creations of course.

In any case, give the minifigs an "identity" = a name, a storyline, then it's more attractive for children to "collect them all". Children like to collect things after all. And when looking at toys in general, there's clearly a "brandification". It's not work-vehicles, it's Bob the Builder's work-vehicles, it's not *some* space ships, it's Star Wars space ships, it's not *some* cars, it's Cars' cars, so not some random item or character, but a specific one embedded into a context with other specific items or characters.

On 27.9.2016 at 11:25 PM, Aanchir said:

I wouldn't say LEGO has given up on traditional knights

Let's put it differently. Till 1992 the knights theme was pretty traditional = half-way realistic toy versions of knights, horses, carts, castles, and sets were released more or less continuously. In 1993 they started with magical elements, the dragon, the wizard. In 1997 we also got some "flying machines". Knights from fantasy era were, well, about fantasy to a large extent. The Kingdoms theme from 2010 was pretty "traditional" again, but in my opinion it's evident that they target at children of a younger age, with somewhat less "realistic" structures like the chunk of bricks termed "Prison Tower Rescue". While this direction might still be rather vague it's quite obvious for the sets from 2013.

In any case, what we can definitely state is that we do not get "traditional knights" (in the sense of the 80ies and early 90ies and possibly 2010/11) as frequently as we used to get. And when contrasting Playmobil sets of the 90ies and Playmobil sets of today, there's one especially interesting common aspect, less diversity with regard to fractions - we end up with the "good" fraction (Crowned lions) vs. the "evil" (Falcons) like in the "current" 2014/15 theme. We had similar fractions in the 2010 theme (Lions vs. Falcons). Now consider Lego, what have people been complaining about? That we end up with crownies/lion knights vs. dragon knights. I fear this won't change for future themes, it might be inevitable nowadays.

So well, "traditional knights" have become less important in some ways - in contrast to e.g. police (still waiting for the desert police, the underwater police, the underworld police though) or helicopters (we still need a helicopter that transports helicopters).

Edited September 29, 2016 by Oederland

[RetroInferno]

Was there ever a poll on what were the community's thoughts on Nexo knights in the first place? It would be intersting to hear now after a full year how people feel about the thing.

[x105Black]

39 minutes ago, RetroInferno said:

Was there ever a poll on what were the community's thoughts on Nexo knights in the first place? It would be intersting to hear now after a full year how people feel about the thing.

Good point.  I'd like to vote in it.

[Artanis I]

There was a poll of some kind in the Action forum early on where the people that usually post in there voted on how great it was, outpolling the traditional Castle people that ventured over there.

The general consensus outside of polls was that people in the Historical forum thought it was too Space-y, Sci-Fi forum people thought it was too Castle-y, and Action forum people thought it was the best thing ever.

Another poll would probably give the same results, but I'd imagine that there are more people now that don't have the Castle or Space fan background, and therefore like it. Having said that, I don't know how popular it still is over there now that it's been out for a bit.

[RetroInferno]

I think balance would shift a bit, I can't be the only one thinking the completed wave 1 is a bloated big wheeled siege-vehicle mess, which wave 2 is shaping up pretty nicely to be next...

Edited October 4, 2016 by RetroInferno

[thetang22]

8 hours ago, Artanis I said:

Another poll would probably give the same results

Don't underestimate the importance of "where" the poll is conducted (as you kinda indicated).  Bias is a big factor when it comes to location of polls.  Nexo Knights would do better with a Ninjago/Chima loving crowd than it would with the traditional Castle crowd...so a poll located in a forum dedicated to Action themes will certainly get more of the crowd who is predisposed to vote in favor of it.  Place it somewhere like a traditional Castle forum, and you'll likely get a pretty different result.

You see that kind of thing in video game forums quite a bit.  Fans posting polls like "What game is better...game X or game Y?"  The idiotic nature of it is that they are posting the poll in the forums for game X....so naturally the majority of people who even know about the poll are likely there because of game X...therefore the poll is going to be biased in favor of game X.  Well DUH......

[x105Black]

I'll agree to the poll location bias.  I'd like to see one here.  I guess I just want to see one where it is more likely that my own opinions will be validated.

[Artanis I]

Any poll about "do you like Nexo Knights" will be moved to the other forum

[thetang22]

A poll like that could be specifically asking for a traditional Castle perspective on it...stating the case for it being in this section.  Plus, the sheer fact that Lego themselves seem to consider it a Castle theme (despite it not being one  ) should lend some validity to wanting to see a poll on it from a Castle perspective instead of an Action perspective.  Another factor being, whether Eurobricks wants to consider it Action or Castle, it's a fact that it's existence is affecting Castle...therefore warranting some discussion about the topic in the Castle (Historic) section.

Edited October 5, 2016 by thetang22

[Aanchir]

13 hours ago, thetang22 said:

A poll like that could be specifically asking for a traditional Castle perspective on it...stating the case for it being in this section.  Plus, the sheer fact that Lego themselves seem to consider it a Castle theme (despite it not being one  ) should lend some validity to wanting to see a poll on it from a Castle perspective instead of an Action perspective.  Another factor being, whether Eurobricks wants to consider it Action or Castle, it's a fact that it's existence is affecting Castle...therefore warranting some discussion about the topic in the Castle (Historic) section.

But wouldn't a poll seeking answers from one specific perspective be even more biased than the previous one, which just asked in general whether people liked the theme? There's a whole debate over whether Nexo Knights qualifies as a castle theme, and I'm not going to open that can of worms again, but I think even people who do consider it Castle would never consider it traditional Castle.

It also raises questions of what it means to have a "traditional perspective". I loved the Dragon Masters, Royal Knights, and Fright Knights as a kid, even though I prefer themes like Ninjago and Nexo Knights today. And some of the actual Nexo Knights designers like Mark Stafford and Samuel Johnson are older than me and arguably have even more of a "traditional Castle perspective". Years before I became an AFOL, Mark was already an active member of Classic-Castle.com!

On another note, I can't see because I already voted in the poll, but is the original poll still open? Because if it is, it would probably make more sense to try and direct traditional Castle fans over there than to create a new, separate poll here asking the same questions.

[Wodanis]

So we need a new medieval adventure movie to put Castle back on the radar?  I think I've said this before but TLG likely has a new castle theme already in the pipeline as they usually plan five years ahead of the release.

[Legoman123]

I would personally love a new castle theme.  I haven't had any time for Nexo knights as it just hasn't appealed to me. 

[thetang22]

3 hours ago, Aanchir said:

But wouldn't a poll seeking answers from one specific perspective be even more biased than the previous one, which just asked in general whether people liked the theme?

I'm not really sure exactly how to respond to this.  Why?  The goal is to have a bias (a different bias than the other poll), to see if the results would end up the way some of us expect they would (a sort of validation (or invalidation) of the though process, as x105Black hinted at).

[x105Black]

42 minutes ago, thetang22 said:

I'm not really sure exactly how to respond to this.  Why?  The goal is to have a bias (a different bias than the other poll), to see if the results would end up the way some of us expect they would (a sort of validation (or invalidation) of the though process, as x105Black hinted at).

And I'm sure plenty of Nexo Knights fans would come upon this poll as well, so it wouldn't be too biased.

[Aanchir]

2 hours ago, thetang22 said:

I'm not really sure exactly how to respond to this.  Why?  The goal is to have a bias (a different bias than the other poll), to see if the results would end up the way some of us expect they would (a sort of validation (or invalidation) of the though process, as x105Black hinted at).

I have no problem with the idea of having a poll here in this forum, even knowing that it would be biased. The ridiculous thing is to create a poll seeking answers only from one specific perspective. It's basically engineering the poll to get an answer you agree with by willfully shutting out perspectives you don't expect to agree with you. If you engineer the poll to get the outcome you want, then the outcome is meaningless. It neither proves anything, teaches anyone anything, nor convinces anyone of anything. It would be like if the poll in the Action Themes forum read "Do you like Nexo Knights? (Only answer if you're an action themes fan)".

Plus, as I said, it raises the question of what a "traditional castle perspective" even is.