Idea for Multi-Level Track Layout

[Sokratesz]

Hey all! Been awhile since I posted, am still in faraway lands without access to my LEGO :(

I was just browsing through some of the new posts and got an idea. There are several guides available for getting a train to an elevation sufficient to cross tracks (13-14 bricks high IIRC) but long trains can take upwards of 2meters of slope to reliably make it to the top.

Has anyone tried to make a multi-level (or otherwise elevated) railway using means other than the train motors themselves to move the trains to different levels? If you used a technic motor and and chain system similar to that found in roller coasters you could easily pull a very heavy train up a steep slope. It isn't very realistic of course, but it would save a lot of space, allow for longer trains and offer some nice options of integrating LEGO technic (mindstorms?) and trains.

I'll use my paint skills to illustrate it. It would also allow you (for the 9v and 12v systems) to use a different transformer and thus different speed setting for the various levels since the electrification is interrupted on the slope.

- Tim

[mostlytechnic]

It's an interesting idea, but you'd need to put the "hooks" that grab the chain on every car I'd think - I doubt the magnets would hold together on such a steep slope.

Does seem like a nice way to get some change, especially on a larger layout where you could hide the hill behind a building or in a tunnel.

[mikka says]

i was thinking to incorporate a siding on a layout and instead of an incline, an elevator that connects all levels. in the length of your standard train size... say a loco and 4 cars. it just means you need to make sure trains dont head onto the siding while its in use ;)

[cimddwc]

It does look like an intriguing idea, but you can't really have an abrupt change of the inclination: the tops of the cars will touch; and bogies aren't that flexible either, so unless you have only rolling stock with one axle on each end, well, even if it works with some axles lifted off the rails, it will certainly look odd... Also, the modern magnets (with full plastic casing) don't tilt much up and down, so they will lose contact easier, which would be a problem especially for the first cars of a long train, unless there's a motor in the back pushing it.

So you'd rather need a smooth change of inclination, which also means more space. And there's another problem: the engine at the top will receive power again, but the cars are still hooked on the slope or below it and can't really be pulled. You'd have to match the speed of the slope and the engine pretty well.

In the end, I'd say you're better off with a cog railway for steep inclines, but that won't be easy for existing trains, and not as space-saving as your idea...

Edited March 27, 2012 by cimddwc

[Sokratesz]

A completely vertical lift system might be possible with mindstorms, although it would be a pretty large construction if you have long trains, but it would still save space and allow you to have multiple levels on top of each other. Hmmm I might have to look into that some time. You could even use the RCX to control the speed of the train on the stretches just before and after the lift such that it looks more natural and prevents disaster :)

The magnet problem can be worked around but too steep an incline will indeed force the cars up against each other and maybe derail them, but again with for example side-support structures you could fix that. It wouldn't look very pretty though...

- Tim

Edited March 27, 2012 by Sokratesz

[harnbak]

...And there's another problem: the engine at the top will receive power again, but the cars are still hooked on the slope or below it and can't really be pulled. You'd have to match the speed of the slope and the engine pretty well...

This could be solved by letting the chain pull further than the top:

where c is conductor rail, x is pulling power for incline, and t transition between c and x.

Maybe one should get inspiration from outside the lego world?

Edited March 27, 2012 by harnbak

[mpec82]

Imho the idea is good, add the EB's constructive critics and we can get something that can work.

[roamingstop]

found in roller coasters you could easily pull a very heavy train up a steep slope. It isn't very realistic of course,

Simple answer: it exists in Switzerland on the railway line between Luzern and Engelberg stations.

The difficult bit will be the transition parts - but with slow curves it should be ok for most large bogeys.

Edited March 27, 2012 by roamingstudio

[Andy Glascott]

I've built a few multi-level layouts over the last 4 years or so, and the first two had ramp(s) between them. However, I hardly ever used them. Some of the ramps were 12v, which meant that if they weren't used regularly they stuttered, as 12v does, but the biggest challenge was managing power to them and not short circuiting when power went through the ramps to connect the levels. It is possible to isolate power using the points in the 9v system and the 12 signals, but to swap a train you have to synchronise power supplies. I suspect that a steeper ramp with a chain mechanism would have similar issues, though with PF power supply isn't as much of an issue. Ultimately I found the novelty of swapping levels wasn't worth the hassle involved.

Eventually, when I went to a three level layout, I did away with connecting ramps and settled for a compact, efficient and flexible method of switching trains between levels - hands!

Andy

[Hrw-Amen]

It seems to be an enduring problem of model trains that they simply need loads of space to go up and down ramps, a bit like the real thing. (That image from Switzerland looks like it would be a terrfiying ride for a passenger!) Even on my N Gauge layout that I had as a kid it took a whole length of the attic wall for a train to get up about four inches, that was probably an incline some five meters long, even then on long trains we used to get some slipping. I think that rack and pinion method is best if you want to model it to be seen although the transitions would be tricky with I suspect having to have just special trains to avoid things lifting off the track etc. Other than that I like the idea of a hidden lift, but it sounds like a huge technical challenge probably requiring loads more bricks than most of us have available. Still it would be good to see someone build one. It almost seems cheaper though to buy two trains, have a big tunnel covering multi levels park in one then start the second one on the upper track and just pretend?

[mostlytechnic]

It almost seems cheaper though to buy two trains, have a big tunnel covering multi levels park in one then start the second one on the upper track and just pretend?

Best solution yet!

[roamingstop]

That image from Switzerland looks like it would be a terrfiying ride for a passenger!

Actually its kind of fun - as the seats are all angled slightly inside the cars so that when you go up (at a slow pace) you dont fall out. And it is a fun ride... if you dont know it is coming there is sudden pause at the station whilst the pinion mechanism is deployed from the locomotive... and up you go for a while. Im not sure if the section is still there as some tunnels were built after regular rains swept the tracks away. But the image is enduring.

In this

at around 2:50 you get to see the gradient. Not my video! Edited March 27, 2012 by roamingstudio

[Slick Willie]

Won't work.

Need to use the classic tight spiral Helix in one corner, with a switch at each level for the train to exit out onto each of the various levels.

Downside is you need a heavy engine, and progressively lighter cars as you go to the rear of the train.

[BillytheKid]

Nice idea. But remember you can't see much what's under the 1ste floor.

I'm busy to build a brigde, which is already in use. It works perfectly and maybe you can use some for your own layout.

[Sokratesz]

Won't work.

Need to use the classic tight spiral Helix in one corner, with a switch at each level for the train to exit out onto each of the various levels.

Downside is you need a heavy engine, and progressively lighter cars as you go to the rear of the train.

Can you make a spiral like that? Is 16 curved pieces enough to up the height 15 bricks? I'd highly doubt it since curved inclines in general are super difficult for LEGO trains.

As soon as I get home I'll have to start experimenting with the short slope roller coaster system and the entire train lift system, both seem very promising.

*edit* oh and for the magnet problem, I just remembered how someone posted a solution where he put super strong industrial magnets between train couplings allowing the LEGO magnets to pull a much longer train.

- Tim

Edited March 28, 2012 by Sokratesz

[JamesP]

Can you make a spiral like that? Is 16 curved pieces enough to up the height 15 bricks? I'd highly doubt it since curved inclines in general are super difficult for LEGO trains.

As soon as I get home I'll have to start experimenting with the short slope roller coaster system and the entire train lift system, both seem very promising.

*edit* oh and for the magnet problem, I just remembered how someone posted a solution where he put super strong industrial magnets between train couplings allowing the LEGO magnets to pull a much longer train.

- Tim

Short answers, no 16 pieces of track are not enough to go up in. My spiral is 46 pieces long, with 15 pieces of straight each side. That's with ~6 motors to pull/push a 3 engine/6 car Santa Fe up (and down) the hill. (4 in the locos, 2 pushing). Brakes are not really optional, the best is to put about 2/3rds of the power at the head & then the rest on the tail. I have 2 locos which pull a brake van fitted with brakes, they add a lot to the control on a downhill train. The super magnet trick works well, I use ones from Lee Valley tools here in Canada, but they are not able to ship them by air. (yes, they are that strong!). I have never tried making a fully vertical arrangement, and I suspect it would be rather difficult as a pure lego solution. I have some lift bridges, and they are a bit fragile for lifting, and I suspect that they would not survive lifting a full train.

James

[Flipz]

I'm by no means an expert on trains (especially LEGO trains and the unique logistics involved), but I remember reading an article in a (non-LEGO) train magazine many years back that involved a pair of (automatic!) elevators. One was a relatively short straight section, used mostly for engines and one or two passenger cars, while the other was a very large, curved elevator (a full 90-degree curve) used for freight trains. It should be mentioned that the elevators were "backstage" and connected to the backstage staging switchyard, but what made the elevators so ingenious was the automatic part: there was a simple push buttons at the "disconnected" end of the elevator on each level; when a button was clicked by a train bumping it, the power would be cut to the track, the elevator would rise or lower, and the power would be turned back on, allowing the train to continue running as if nothing had changed. (There were small buttons facing vertically at the top and bottom of the elevator, carefully aligned so as to stop the elevator and restore power precisely at the right time so the train would continue without derailing.) It would be a lot of work, but with some Mindstorms, Power Functions and perhaps even some pneumatics, I'm certain it could be done, and I'd DEFINITELY like to see it in LEGO form.

[FreeBee]

Heres a link to a movie where i test having some trains driving

up and down a slope. They all have only 1 motor.

The slopes are built with 16 pieces of straight and curved track.

If u keep the trains light enough they will make it up the slopes

but the heavier ones (like the metroliner) won't make it on one motor.

So the options are:

- Make you trains very light

- Use multiple motors

- Or lengten the slopes

Gr FreeBee

Edited March 29, 2012 by FreeBee

[Sokratesz]

Woah JamesP, that is huge :D I wish I had the space for that.

I'm by no means an expert on trains (especially LEGO trains and the unique logistics involved), but I remember reading an article in a (non-LEGO) train magazine many years back that involved a pair of (automatic!) elevators. One was a relatively short straight section, used mostly for engines and one or two passenger cars, while the other was a very large, curved elevator (a full 90-degree curve) used for freight trains. It should be mentioned that the elevators were "backstage" and connected to the backstage staging switchyard, but what made the elevators so ingenious was the automatic part: there was a simple push buttons at the "disconnected" end of the elevator on each level; when a button was clicked by a train bumping it, the power would be cut to the track, the elevator would rise or lower, and the power would be turned back on, allowing the train to continue running as if nothing had changed. (There were small buttons facing vertically at the top and bottom of the elevator, carefully aligned so as to stop the elevator and restore power precisely at the right time so the train would continue without derailing.) It would be a lot of work, but with some Mindstorms, Power Functions and perhaps even some pneumatics, I'm certain it could be done, and I'd DEFINITELY like to see it in LEGO form.

My thoughts exactly :) A fully automatic mindstorms powered solution would be sweet.