LEGO LotR - general discussion

[Regenerate builder]

not trying to start a nerd debate here, but I don't agree with that. A Balrog would probably win in the end, yeah, but Treebeard is massively old and powerful; doubt he'd cave instantly.

Interesting concept picturing the two of them fighting. But I think Dragonlego27 was referring to the Balrog destroying (with votes) Treebeard on Lego Ideas within 2 seconds. That being said, I am a nerd and don't mind the debate

[Deathleech]

not trying to start a nerd debate here, but I don't agree with that. A Balrog would probably win in the end, yeah, but Treebeard is massively old and powerful; doubt he'd cave instantly.

Ya, if the Balrog wasn't, you know, fiery with a fire whip that would ignite Treebeard in a few seconds flat. Maybe if they were fighting in the rain or in a river it would be a different story..? Lol

Edited December 3, 2014 by Deathleech

[MAB]

Don't try to debate how Treebeard would win since it would never, ever happen.

What if the fight took place by a river?

What if Treebeard had Gandalf on his side?

"Never, ever happen" is a rather strong statement.

[Wolvarie]

Of all the sets I would like to see "made" by the incredibly creative Lego ideas uploaders is Nazgul and its prey. Eowyn, Merry, the mortally wounded Theoden and the Witch King on his winged steed. Using the brown dragon from Harry Potter and a few modifications it could be done. 4 figs, white horse and a fell beast bit of ground and some rocks. $35-45 done.

Balrog would slay Treebeard in seconds. Flame v wood is no contest.

[bachamn]

And I'm gonna end this debate right here - Treebeard doesn't stand even the slighest chance. Not only does the Balrog have the elemental upper hand since he is fire, he's also on a completely different powerlevel being a Maiar. Don't try to debate how Treebeard would win since it would never, ever happen.

I find it hilarious that I specifically stated I wasn't trying to start a debate, and admitted that the Balrog would win, yet reading these responses you'd think otherwise.

But to respond to a few posts...This isn't Pokemon. The "elemental upper hand" isn't an instant trump card in Tolkien lore. Treebeard isn't even a tree, nor is he simply a "wood elemental" that immediately wilts in the presence of fire. Logically it'd be a weakness, but if you know anything about how revered and powerful he is the idea that a Balrog would just trample over him without effort because he is fire lol, is absurd. There are examples of powerful elves killing Balrogs, and I'm unaware of anywhere it mentioning that elves used to have fire-proof skin, but more importantly this gives precedence to the fact that Maiar can be defeated by lesser beings.

If you believe Balrog wins simply because fire>wood, you are ignorant about the combat dynamics in Tolkien's lore. Treebeard is the oldest living creature in Middle Earth, and Tolkien puts as much emphasis on willpower and experience as anything else. That's the only point I'm making here.

Edited December 3, 2014 by bachamn

[SMC]

OK we all agree the Balrog would win a fight against Treebeard but we have a different view about how long it would take and in the end that all depend on how many films peter jackson wants to make about the fight .

[Deathleech]

If you believe Balrog wins simply because fire>wood, you are ignorant about the combat dynamics in Tolkien's lore. Treebeard is the oldest living creature in Middle Earth, and Tolkien puts as much emphasis on willpower and experience as anything else. That's the only point I'm making here.

He's old yes, but there is little to no mention of him being in any sort of combat besides at Isengard? What sort of combat experience are you talking about? Furthermore it took a few measly orc grunts with flaming arrows to kill some of the other ents. If you honestly believe a demonic creature that extrudes flame and uses a flame whip couldn't easily bring down Treebeard when some orcs with flaming arrows could take his allies down, then I dunno what to say to you. No this isn't Pokemon, but logic still applies. Unless none of us are aware of Treebeard's bark skin being magically immune to fire...?

Of course, location could play a big role. Outside in the rain or near water could definitely sway the battle more in Treebeard's favor. Without that though, I don't think Treebeard stands a chance.

[Lynx]

Great to see Minas Tirith reaching 10,000. The beacons are lit!

On another note, I can't believe we're discussing the outcome of an ent being destroyed by a balrog.

[bachamn]

Unless none of us are aware of Treebeard's bark skin being magically immune to fire...?

There are examples of powerful elves killing Balrogs, and I'm unaware of anywhere it mentioning that elves used to have fire-proof skin

haha man, either you're really bad at this debate thing or you were being intentionally ridiculous.

Moving on.

[Deathleech]

haha man, either you're really bad at this debate thing or you were being intentionally ridiculous.

Moving on.

Me being intentionally ridiculous? Says the guy who is arguing a burning, demonic creature couldn't kill an ent made of bark and leaves? You know, when the Balrog wields fire, the MAIN weakness of the ents and quickest way to kill them? You do realize no one else has agreed with you in the slightest, right? But by all means, I am the one being ridiculous here

Also you have yet to provide any way Treebeard could even remotely gain the upper hand and beat a Balrog. Other than defying logic and saying fire doesn't burn wood. You said he has willpower and experience which are vague and don't necessarily mean anything. Who is the one that is really bad at debating? I mentioned the bark skin because I was being sarcastic. It's true SOME beings in Middle-Earth have magical powers or properties. Treebeard doesn't seem to possess any though, at least not that I have read or heard of. He is just a really big, strong ent. He still has the same weaknesses other ents possess though.

When I saw the ents march on Isengard there were several being lit up by a handful of worker orcs left behind after the main army had marched to Helm's Deep. They had nothing more than flaming arrows. The Balrog scared away thousands upon of Moria goblins though. He has a whip made of pure fire and is on fire himself. If a few arrows did that, what do you honestly think a Balrog is going to do?

[sahidko]

I cant believe how you can argue about something like this, using movies based on fantasy books as facts and then even feel offended when somebody feels otherwise. :D

Edited December 4, 2014 by sahidko

[Dr.Cogg]

The Balrog would win ,here are the 2 reasons why:

#1 He is a Demon of Fire and Shadow.

#2 He died but took Gandalf with him, and Gandalf is a Maiar ,which I believe are more powerful than Ent.

[sahidko]

Balrog is a Maiar as well. At least he used to be.

[Risgrynsgrot]

Yes, balrogs got killed by elves and half-elves, but that was at a time when not only were elves/half-elves incredibly powerful, but Balrogs were nothing more than glorified orcs.

The balrog of Morgoth is, as stated, a Maiar, and is on a completely different powerlevel than Treebeard (who while old and powerful is "just" a mortal creature) Gandalf was also a Maiar, and he only managed to kill the Balrog after intense fighting for several days (and he died too, he only came back from literal divine intervention)

The fact that the Balrog has fire powers just pushes this even further. But this is way off-topic, so.

[AFOLguy1970]

I really like underdogs and can see one way Treebeard could win. Treebeard could be hiding in the forest, then the Balrog walks past him thinking he is another tree, just like Merry and Pippin did. Then, Treebeard sticks him from behind with a sharp object while he is not looking. After all, the Balrog is capable of being stuck with sharp objects. Just ask Gandalf. So, the narrow shot Treebeard has would be the element of surprise.

Also, Maryanne would always be the better choice than Ginger.

To make this a LOTR Lego related post, I would add that the Balrog and Treebeard seemed like they would have been possible for third wave sets had they been produced. Like others have stated, the ent in Orthanc was not named Treebeard probably in order to leave the possibility open if they ever decided to make him. Many will consider that ent to be "Treebeard" because that is the only ent we will get. Whether or not the ent is Treebeard depends on the owner of the set at this point. As for the Balrog, that has to be among the top memorable scenes in the trilogy. How we got the Mouth of Sauron and a ship that had all of 30 seconds of film time before this foe or Gondor is beyond me (beating the dead horse again, I know).

[Blakstone]

Also, Maryanne would always be the better choice than Ginger.

How we got the Mouth of Sauron and a ship that had all of 30 seconds of film time before this foe or Gondor is beyond me (beating the dead horse again, I know).

Let's do the time warp again! And did anyone like Ginger better? Not me.

I am really hoping that Lothlorien keeps its front page status on IDEAS. I am still hoping for two Lord of the RIngs projects in the same review.

[MAB]

Yes, balrogs got killed by elves and half-elves, but that was at a time when not only were elves/half-elves incredibly powerful, but Balrogs were nothing more than glorified orcs.

The balrog of Morgoth is, as stated, a Maiar, and is on a completely different powerlevel than Treebeard (who while old and powerful is "just" a mortal creature) Gandalf was also a Maiar, and he only managed to kill the Balrog after intense fighting for several days (and he died too, he only came back from literal divine intervention)

The fact that the Balrog has fire powers just pushes this even further. But this is way off-topic, so.

Yet another Maiar, Saruman, was killed by a mortal man, Grima. "Power levels" don't always work.

[Bycougars]

Let's do the time warp again! And did anyone like Ginger better? Not me.

I am really hoping that Lothlorien keeps its front page status on IDEAS. I am still hoping for two Lord of the RIngs projects in the same review.

I hope that Lothlorien stays on the main page and makes it to the review stage too. However, in order to reach the same review stage as Minas Tirith it would have to get to 10000 by the end of the month. That means that it would have to get approximately 1,500 votes per week for the next four weeks, which is nearly impossible.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Bycougars

[Dr.Cogg]

I really like underdogs and can see one way Treebeard could win. Treebeard could be hiding in the forest, then the Balrog walks past him thinking he is another tree, just like Merry and Pippin did. Then, Treebeard sticks him from behind with a sharp object while he is not looking. After all, the Balrog is capable of being stuck with sharp objects. Just ask Gandalf. So, the narrow shot Treebeard has would be the element of surprise.

I don't think that would work, it would be more likely the Balrog would burn down the forest and Treebeard along with it.

[legoladdy]

Let me point out that the Balrog in question is DEAD...Treebeard is not. The Balrog was killed by an old man. Treebeard has a perfect record. You might say...well that old man was a Wizard. True. But Treebeard challenged a Wizard (Saruman) that defeated Gandalf, and we all know how that wizard fared.

[Dragonlego27]

Look, I'm really sorry to everyone for accidently providing the spark which ignited this debate. I was mostly focusing on which being I would have bought first as a set, not who would win in a Tolkien-blasphemy fight! First cuttlefish and now this...

I would just like to point out that, although Treebeard may be the oldest creature in Middle Earth, as Ents are indigenous to Endor and don't originally derive from Valinor (I think), the Balrogs, the main seven of whom (including Durin's Bane) were fallen Maiar under Morgoth and thus (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) were present when the Valar first sung Middle Earth and the universe into being. Ergo, the age and power argument is irrelevant in terms of the Entire vs Balrog debate (I'm speaking in terms of the Silmarrillion Sahidko, which consequently also doesn't mention Ents, although I accept he existed before the War of Wrath).

Finally, I think I anyone wishes to continue this discussion, we should create a new topic, they should enter a new page for which Tolkien being would win in a fight and whether their Lego counterparts live up to them, instead of going increasingly off topic for this one. I'll happily post on it (or create it myself for a matter of fact).

[Alcarin]

Look, I'm really sorry to everyone for accidently providing the spark which ignited this debate. I was mostly focusing on which being I would have bought first as a set, not who would win in a Tolkien-blasphemy fight! First cuttlefish and now this...

I would just like to point out that, although Treebeard may be the oldest creature in Middle Earth, as Ents are indigenous to Endor and don't originally derive from Valinor (I think), the Balrogs, the main seven of whom (including Durin's Bane) were fallen Maiar under Morgoth and thus (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) were present when the Valar first sung Middle Earth and the universe into being. Ergo, the age and power argument is irrelevant in terms of the Entire vs Balrog debate (I'm speaking in terms of the Silmarrillion Sahidko, which consequently also doesn't mention Ents, although I accept he existed before the War of Wrath).

Finally, I think I anyone wishes to continue this discussion, we should create a new topic, they should enter a new page for which Tolkien being would win in a fight and whether their Lego counterparts live up to them, instead of going increasingly off topic for this one. I'll happily post on it (or create it myself for a matter of fact).

Ents were mentioned as shepards of the trees when that Valar went crying to Manwe that Aule's dwarves will ruin the trees, and then Manwe decided that only Aule's ''trees'' (mountains) will be high enough for Eagles to live ''in'' and through the trees the shepards/keepers of trees shall walk.

Thats from Silmarillion at start, before Elves came. Even before war with Morgoth, BUT Balrogs the fallen Maiars are definetly older.

[Deathleech]

Finally, I think I anyone wishes to continue this discussion, we should create a new topic, they should enter a new page for which Tolkien being would win in a fight and whether their Lego counterparts live up to them, instead of going increasingly off topic for this one. I'll happily post on it (or create it myself for a matter of fact).

Ehh, I don't think there is much point. It seems everyone except two or three members are in agreement the Balrog would win. The only argument for Treebeard winning is he is old and still alive.. but that doesn't really matter if he wasn't in many fights himself. I mean sure Treebeard could win if he decided to push a boulder over a cliff on the Balrog below, or they were fighting in a river, but besides these special circumstances a Balrog would beat Treebeard 9 times out of 10.

It seems people are also forgetting the Balrog drove out an entire city of dwarves single handedly. Treebeard's ent friends were being brought down by a handful of left over orc workers.. and there were dozens of ents attacking them not just one. As for Saruman not able to kill Treebeard? That isn't saying much. His fireball would have been useless as the ents were all standing in several feet of water from the flooded dam. If they started on fire at that point, they could simply dip down in the water and put the fire out in seconds. Saruman had also lost a considerable amount of his power at that point and had been cut off, trapped in his tower alone with Grima while Treebeard and dozens of ents had him surrounded. It's hardly comparable or a basis for Treebeard being stronger than the Balrog.

[bachamn]

words [sic]

[ZCerberus]

Is this conversation still going on?

Balrog wins. Debate over.

Is this thread really even needed anymore? Other than discussing Ideas projects, there is nothing to be gained here, is there?