Heartlake Heartbreak - Conclusion: Still Alive

[Piratedave84]

That's a very good attitude to have! Although as a rule of thumb, I would say that surviving is not something to strive for in mafia!

Granted that this could have a double-entente! What I meant was that this is the first time I make it this far, this was also the first time that I had "good game" and was able to efficiently defend myself both (or three) times I was attacked/called out. I gave it my all to find scum, it looks like it was noticed/acknowledged and that satisfies me.

Super optomistic statement ahead: My own win condition was to not get killed ... I WON!

[Zepher]

Day one, you are telling people how Fred is, and how Daisy is, but it's not based on past games! In the past, you've said you want to change things from how you play in the past. You are ridiculously conscious about how you play, but are so quick to slap down any possiible "meta-play." That's Zepher's thing. Maybe you are an in-denial meta-gamer. I'm setting up an intervention for you as we speak

You've sat out, you've missed me giving up on not meta-gaming. If everyone else is going to do it, bah. At least I can try to use it to stop people from fighting instead of starting fights.

When you defend two people arguing on day one and the defense is metagaming, it's pretty Scummy. That's when I was first onto you, as I told you. Though it wasn't until I got your Scum reading from Shadows that I went on full-scale attack. What I think happened in this game is DarkDragon gave the Town many ways to confirm the Town against the Cult and Scum and the Cult got a hold of all of those tools.

Psh, that's not my scum tell, that's my Zepher tell. I fight fights no matter what side I'm on. EVEN if the fighting is a strategy.

[Hinckley]

Hinckley, was the mustache you found a real thing?

Yes. DarkDragon told you that they were Groucho Marx glasses. She seems to think that should explain it to you. Did that have something to do with your role? You were in disguise? You appeared Town in investigations, but it was a disguise?

Psh, that's not my scum tell, that's my Zepher tell. I fight fights no matter what side I'm on. EVEN if the fighting is a strategy.

Like there's a Zepher-tell. The guy who proudly chooses a new strategy for every game! And you weren't fighting, you were defending. That's Scummy.

[Scubacarrot]

I did not have any indication for that, no. Was there a particular reason it changed from night 1?

[Cecilie]

RE Hinck: I really didn't expect him to go announcing he was bulleproof, expcially since he knew it was only one-shot. And then I thought for sure you guys would have investigated him somehow again on day three after he was converted but nobody actually did, which was pretty funny. It's so interesting how things work out when all the people start playing.

Weren't all the investigations already used or cult by then though? Who and how was he supposed to be investigated after the conversion?

Or did I forget something?

[Darkdragon]

I did not have any indication for that, no. Was there a particular reason it changed from night 1?

The way the lunch flavor cops worked was each night was assigned a hint about the item a full flavor cop would have found, each night was different until it looped back. it just happened that two people who copped you first were the same night so they got the same result. Hinck did it on a different night so got a different clue.

Traitor = disguise = that item, that's my mind process. for better or worse.

[Hinckley]

Weren't all the investigations already used or cult by then though? Who and how was he supposed to be investigated after the conversion?

Yes, that was a problem for the Town. They got all the investigation results through me after that. We converted the day investigator so we faked all his results through Amy who could investigate if he wasn't converting, so he never did the converting. The investigation result I got from the glass I then lied about anyway.

[Darkdragon]

Weren't all the investigations already used or cult by then though? Who and how was he supposed to be investigated after the conversion?

Or did I forget something?

I don't think so. there was the jack of all trades and the inventor and the reporter. a host can only plan for so much and then it's on the players to maybe not spill all the roles to one person.

[Cecilie]

I don't think so. there was the jack of all trades and the inventor and the reporter. a host can only plan for so much and then it's on the players to maybe not spill all the roles to one person.

Well, Danny had already used his investigation (and was converted the next night anyway ), JimB gave his magnifying glass to Hinck, and fhomess got killed the next night, didn't he?

So, yeah, a bit unlucky for town there . Besides, there really wasn't a reason not to trust Hinck at that point. Maybe after Shadows was revealed as founder, but then there were no investigations left to use for town.

[Darkdragon]

Besides, there really wasn't a reason not to trust Hinck at that point.

I completely disagree. But we won't bother debating the issue because, really, we will probably never agree on this (am I right def? lol).

Ah mafia, you are so fun and annoying and stressful and fun.

[fhomess]

Ah, okay. Thanks then.

Also, we (the scum) noticed the whole food choice/lunch pattern early on in day 1 so we all relied on that for our lunches. That's why I stole from Cecilie (I think I said that in public, too), because of her steak action which should allow her to steal from others.

Seems a bit silly to me that you would've stolen someone who had the same lunch as you. The other two lunches were more dangerous to scum since they revealed information about night actions. I was actually surprised that everyone didn't use their lunch when the whole lunch concept was revealed publicly on day 2. At that point, it was clear who had what, and scum would've been able to steal the useful town ones.

　

Also, Zepher: you got caught by the investigator, but you also told me you had WBD's lunch. That was a mistake. WBD was the only one with an Orange. You didn't need to tell me you had any lunches beyond your own. Obviously, you were already caught at that point, so it's moot, but just a suggestion.

The way the lunch flavor cops worked was each night was assigned a hint about the item a full flavor cop would have found, each night was different until it looped back. it just happened that two people who copped you first were the same night so they got the same result. Hinck did it on a different night so got a different clue.

Traitor = disguise = that item, that's my mind process. for better or worse.

Personally, I think that's a bit too complicated for town to be expected to piece together. It didn't make a lot of sense to me that town would re-flavor cop someone with a lunch on a subsequent night and expect to get something different.

Well, Danny had already used his investigation (and was converted the next night anyway ), JimB gave his magnifying glass to Hinck, and fhomess got killed the next night, didn't he?

My investigation was pretty weak. It was more of a vanilla/night action claim role cop type of thing. I didn't have any insight into alignment or what players were doing if they went out. I also couldn't be sure if my target had been blocked or had a day action. My targets were Captain Genaro and Scuba, both stayed in, although the wording of my result was different. NIght 3 would've been Darth Potato.

　

As for me, I sought out all the lunches because my role was only good for confirming if a player used a night action, and I didn't want to target people who were using their lunch at night, as that would be a way my results would not give the information I wanted.

　

What was the point of telling Scuba about DP, but not DP about Scuba? That seems odd to me. If I was Scuba, the first thing I'd do is tell DP that I'm on the team and that I show up as town to investigators, and then DP can communicate everything back to the rest of the team.

　

Ultimately, I think all sides in this game had a lot of power. The cult's ability to pass along their leader status was huge and I agree largely with Def's opinion that it's a rather unexpected inheritance. The town had all sorts of different investigation and avoidance skills. It was obvious to me that we weren't up against a basic scum team. Scum had some nice abilities, too, although, IMO, they were easily in the weakest position at the start.

　

I didn't follow as closely after my death due to the holidays, but this was very much a fun game, with some innovative ideas and the comicbook style presentation was fantastic.

Edited January 8, 2013 by fhomess

[Scubacarrot]

What was the point of telling Scuba about DP, but not DP about Scuba? That seems odd to me. If I was Scuba, the first thing I'd do is tell DP that I'm on the team and that I show up as town to investigators, and then DP can communicate everything back to the rest of the team.

That´s what I did.

[Dannylonglegs]

The way it's written is that the sibling commits suicide the NEXT day, so technically Dave was converted before he had the chance to get depressed about his sister getting killed...and then he forgot (because it was part of his role and all role items are lost when converted). It makes perfect logical sense, if you think about it...I think.

It should be more clear when i post the role PMs later today. Founder and Cult Leader are basically two different roles, it's complicated.

It's a disquise. Because the lunches are weaker than regular action, they didn't find "groucho marxx glasses" but got a hint as to what they were.

But I used my regular role cop on him, and I didn't see "groucho marxx glasses."

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Darkdragon]

But I used my regular role cop on him, and I didn't see "groucho marxx glasses."

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Role cop is not the same as Flavor Cop.

[Bob]

On Day Six (I think) when I was voted off, something that struck me as a bit odd is when Hinckley said "let's not worry about the cult anymore". But, no matter.

It was a fun game, I think. I enjoyed it very much.

[Hinckley]

I completely disagree.

I had been investigated twice. That's as good as you're going to get in a Mafia game. Sometimes you have to take what you've been given and run. It is hard to not trust someone with two investigation results, even if the hider did supposedly hide behind that person twice to prove they weren't the Godfather.

The Cult really does add a new dynamic. They knew for a fact that I was against the Scum but couldn't know we had amassed a team of Cult members to back me up. Draggy knew what was going on but we converted him before he could give us up, so we had a huge group of strong players and a trusted mouthpiece. Draggy might have turned us all over if he wasn't weighing his options and assuming we would convert him eventually anyway. I could see how the mechanics might seem a bit unbalanced, but with us in those roles and getting control of the Cult, we were in a good position to win. It is telling that it was so close on the last day. We even had to tell Cecilie before the conversion went through in order to get her to block PsyKater. That was a nail biter for us, for sure.

There's always room to learn. And while I think you've done a great job and I certainly appreciate a host who defends their decisions, don't forget to take the feedback to heart next time you host. Take a look back at The Forest. I was a mess of a host. And according to some, I still can't do it right.

And, def, I wasn't the first to let a serial killer win with one side or the other, and I'd never do it again.

On Day Six (I think) when I was voted off, something that struck me as a bit odd is when Hinckley said "let's not worry about the cult anymore". But, no matter.

It was a fun game, I think. I enjoyed it very much.

Which time? I felt like I said that about six times.

[Piratedave84]

And, def, I wasn't the first to let a serial killer win with one side or the other, and I'd never do it again.

Def himself let an SK win with town in Witchbreed; I was under the impression it was standard practice to do so!!!

[Hinckley]

Def himself let an SK win with town in Witchbreed; I was under the impression it was standard practice to do so!!!

It's probably not a good idea for the reasons that def stated.

[Darkdragon]

You know me, Hinckley, I take everything to heart.

[Piratedave84]

It's probably not a good idea for the reasons that def stated.

Wuntin had been really awesome; he deserved to win that time!!!!!

[Waterbrick Down]

First off I'll kind of put all of this in an easier format

Town:

Vengeful>Steal

Inventor (Protect, block, investigate)>Steal

Skitzo (Protect, block, investigate)>Role Cop

Reporter (Weak Tracker)>Watcher

Lover>Watcher

Commuter>Steal

Day Vig>Steal

Universal Back-up>Steal

Nurse>Role Cop

Day Cop>1 shto Lynch Proof

Hider (Weak Cop)>Role Cop

Jail Keeper>Steal

Jack-of-all-trades (Protect, Kill, Block, Investigate, Role Cop, Governor)>Watcher

Vanilla>Role Cop

Vanilla>Bullet Proof

Vanilla>Role Cop

Vanilla>Watcher

Vanilla>Role Cop

Total potential ways to stop a kill or keep a power role: 7

Total potential ways to kill: 3

Total potential ways to Investigate: 4

Total potential ways to Track (i.e. by Role Cop): 7

Total potential ways to Watch: 4

Scum:

Killer>Watcher

Watcher>Steal

Traitor (Weak Godfather)>Watcher

Blocker>Role Cop

Protector>Steal

Goon>Steal

Cult:

Cult Leader (Converter, Investigator, and has a back-up)>Bullet Proof

Not having ever dealt with a Cult before, I can't say a lot about balance, however breaking everything down into what teams had what actions available to them, I do feel the town had a major advantage starting off. Yes I know we as a scum team had horrible luck in getting blocked, forgetting to send in night actions, and just being at the wrong place at the wrong time, but I'm still uneasy about it. With that many investigators/watchers/trackers out there and only a weak godfather (that we couldn't really communicate with) to mask our presence, we could barely make a move without being discovered. Yes I am fully aware of the "Verify, verify, verify" saying, but that needs to be accomplished through a combination of sound post analysis and night action results not just actions. To give the town a plethora of actions so that they can "verify" is giving them an excuse to be lazy. Now I need to give some credit, because some of the players did an excellent job in analyzing posts and coming to correct conclusions, however as has been said, there were some unexpected twists that seemed to leave everything to a chance kill/investigation/block towards the end. As I said earlier I had an excellent time playing, short and sweet, but from a numbers perspective I felt outgunned. You are an amazing host, DD, and I can't wait to see what you'll bring to the table next. Hosting is a gigantic responsibility and I believe you handled yourself quite amiably.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Waterbrick Down

[Shadows]

breaking everything down into what teams had what actions available to them, I do feel the town had a major advantage starting off.

Ah, but you left out one tiny point, human nature. Having a lot of information as a town is balanced by not knowing who to trust or being able to coordinate it properly. It's one of the reasons setting Hinck up to be converted was the early plan for me, I could see him working to coordinate and figure things out and knew the best way to manipulate everyone would be to let him get in that position and leave the town relying on someone they absolutely never should. Seriously, even when he's town I'd say that. Heck, I said it during the game on that hilarious day when you all sat there watching the show and being brainwashed. It's why I pointed out all the times we've both been town and he's gotten me killed, figuring that once I came up with a shady result and looked janitored, it would make the town trust him even more. For the cult, it was the opportunity of a lifetime.

[Cecilie]

WBD, you're just sour I blocked you on night one, I had you totally figured out

[Hinckley]

You know me, Hinckley, I take everything to heart.

I do the same, but don't forget to take your own advice: it's only a game. People are only commenting on how the game could improve, not you as a person. And even people with the most complaints are still saying what fun they had and how they liked the game. That's really good feedback. You know what you're doing. We could all use some work and as a community, we totally help each other find those ways to grow. You should be really happy with your game.

Yes I am fully aware of the "Verify, verify, verify" saying, but that needs to be accomplished through a combination of sound post analysis and night action results not just actions. To give the town a plethora of actions so that they can "verify" is giving them an excuse to be lazy. Now I need to give some credit, because some of the players did an excellent job in analyzing posts and coming to correct conclusions,

This. Yes. Exactly. We took advantage of people who were just waiting to hear from me and not looking at some of the weird things I was saying. I had the capital of helping to lynch four Scum which is usually foolproof, but not with the Cult. And yes, I thought those players did an excellent job of analyzing too. That's why we converted them.

It's one of the reasons setting Hinck up to be converted was the early plan for me, I could see him working to coordinate and figure things out and knew the best way to manipulate everyone would be to let him get in that position and leave the town relying on someone they absolutely never should. Seriously, even when he's town I'd say that.

Well, thank you very much for that. However, your post welcoming me to the Cult (post-humously) told me my Jesus act would've made the Town lose anyway.

I think we can all be happy that the Scum are dead and we're all living on a tropical island with turtles, hedgehogs and horses.

WBD, you're just sour I blocked you on night one, I had you totally figured out

Super big Congratulations on that. How did you know? Such a great move.

[Shadows]

Well, thank you very much for that. However, your post welcoming me to the Cult (post-humously) told me my Jesus act would've made the Town lose anyway.

Exactly the point, if there's a weapon out there that can guarantee a town loss and you're not town, harness it!

I think we can all be happy that the Scum are dead and we're all living on a tropical island with turtles, hedgehogs and horses.

Indeed.

It should be mentioned that as Hinck said above, my welcome for him was after my departure. I posted it before I was officially out of the game and from that point it was all the surviving members making the decisions, this was not one of those games where departed players continue to work with their team. Eventually (fairly quickly), I decided to just trust them completely and stopped reading the Cult pm at all, watching things as the developed here like any other player, it was a lot more fun that way. Plus it was the only way to maintain a bit of sanity as I imagine they had a few freak-out moments along the way.