Heroica RPG - Quest Masters' Lounge

[CMP]

I like your short quests, Zepher. They're small and self-contained, but your memorable NPCs make it well worth the ride. It was also an excellent send-off for Tarn.

I really, really disliked the ship battle, though. Rumble and Pala navigated it brilliantly (even a naive barbarian can learn from the strategic genius of Atramor, it seems ) but Tarn....was almost entirely useless. I'm glad you gave them Captain Lane to balance things out, but heroes should never be irrelevant in battle, nor should they be penalized in such an extreme way for not having a certain battle style. Just my thoughts there.

[Rumble Strike]

I see where you are coming from, Pie, but to be honest I didn't mind it for that battle as we were supposed to be up against it. Initially I was concerned that Tarn couldn't really attack directly but he was still useful as a support character and buffer.

I think that perhaps Tarn was expected to go down to the depths with Ella. I for one am very keen to see what happened down there

[Palathadric]

Right. I like the mechanic of us needing to protect the ship, but the part with us only using ranged weapons wasn't so great as it made half the party on the deck next to useless. But all's well.

[Flipz]

I see where you are coming from, Pie, but to be honest I didn't mind it for that battle as we were supposed to be up against it. Initially I was concerned that Tarn couldn't really attack directly but he was still useful as a support character and buffer.

I think that perhaps Tarn was expected to go down to the depths with Ella. I for one am very keen to see what happened down there

I think that ship battle would have gone a little better if there were things Tarn and U'Voros could have done on their ship to affect the battle (i.e. trim the sails, evasive maneuvers, returning fire via mounted cannons, etc.).

I do agree that the undersea battle seemed intended for Tarn, though frankly I don't think it would have ended NEARLY as well for him given his relative lack of SP (there was an attack that could have resulted in 160 damage to him if he'd tried to fight in the Front Row, and even with my SP I had to abuse stacking consumables on a Level 50 Prophet to beat it).

And I'm glad Arthur got to go down there, it felt like a good closure to the Ella-Arthur dynamic (since I doubt he'll be seeing her again), and it was nice to have the two Spirit Pool characters interacting with prophet-y things. It also helped remind Arthur of his place in the world--he's not able to save everyone and convince all the bad guys to turn good, no matter how hard he tries. (Ironic that several QMs including Zepher himself have tried to teach Arthur this lesson, but only now in an unintentional way does it actually work. )

[Rumble Strike]

I was conscious that I might be hogging Ella a bit, so as much as I wanted to go down in the depths, in storyline terms it did make sense for Arthur to go, and I am glad it helped with a bit of your own roleplay.

[Zepher]

I had a lot of worries with this quest, but I was over-all very happy with how it turned out, so I'm glad to hear you had a good time too! I felt a hit a bit of rut with 68 and 72, and I've been very happy with 84, 88, and 92, so it feels good to be back on a track I'm happy with as a QM.

So, before I address anything that's been said, I'll offer some of my thoughts.

I wanted to do a kind of happy quest. We have so many dark quests. Which I'm sure everyone knows I love, but I wanted to show some good in the world of Eubric too. Ella is far from an innocent character, but she is optimistic, and so is Tarn, so I thought a quest featuring the both of them that somewhat validated their opinion would be a lot of fun. There's evil in the world, but also certainly good. I took lots of steps to try to display this:

-I tried to paint as many houses as possible in a good light, though not be unrealistic. The Hinckwells get a lot of hate, so I gave them paying a debt, something I'm sure an honorable family like their's would do. We've seen their pride be bad, I wanted to paint it as good. Grady was still a snob about it, to even things out. Doc Daneeka is a Guffington employee, but I like to use him as my stand-in for the Ji Pei. So he too was willing to go experiment, something I imagine the Ji Pei would be interested in. Captain Lane was a stoic man of the sea - bad when he didn't trust Daneeka and bad when he called to the opposing ship, but he was kind and knew how to keep his head as only a Captain would. I actually had a huge debate about him going down with the ship. I didn't even think about while writing the outline - it was I was writing the heroes fleeing I was like "oh Sh*t, he'd probably go down with the ship" but it seemed unnecessary. I don't know what the ruling is for old ships when you successfully get everyone off board. It's the only sort of not honest character moment I felt, but it was not needed that he drown either.

-The quest itself was really just what Ella presented it as. It was for fairytales. That alone, I think, is a lighter quest than many. History is important and dark, but sometimes it is wonderful too, and I thought it'd be nice if the heroes grabbed a piece of beautiful history.

-Finally, I tried to make the enemies kind of fun or justified. The street thugs were an easy battle, but then the Order Imperial were pretty noble in my eyes. I'll discuss the final fight in just a tiny bit. The Order Imperial was originally going to be Crimson Crown (to tie in with Tarn's first quest), but they've gotten a lot of love recently.

Just real quick, before I forget - I'm glad that you both had fun, Flipz and Pala. I marketed this as a Tarn quest, but I was careful to give you stuff to do as well. Hopefully you both knew what you were getting yourselves into, but also hopefully you felt you had moments to shine. I had a lot of fun playing with both of you, but I'll save that for another day.

Two things I was very careful about/worried about:

-The Final Battle: The enemies kind of came out of no where and weren't explained. It's a similar ending to 72, which I (fairly) received criticism for. BUT, in this case, I felt safe because a) the other two encounters were also "random" and therefore didn't lead to a destination that wasn't delivered upon and b) this quest was focused on Ella, so her journey was the story we were focusing on, and her conclusion was fitting. But yes, the ship and its occupants will be focused on in further quests, and I'm sorry for the random encounter boss fight, but hopefully it wasn't too distracting and the pay off down the road will be worth it. Besides, a particularly attention Zepher-quest-fan can probably figure out who those enemies were - this is not their first appearance.

-Tarn and Ella: Rumble, you said that Ella and Tarn rode off into the sunset, which is true in the long run, but I was careful to not make the story too lovey-dovey. Ella is smart and practical and independent - I believe she loves Tarn, but this is only their second encounter. I was very careful to never have her ever say that she loved him or even was attracted to him. Right now, he holds her most affection, and I think she wants to see where it leads them, but I don't know if she'd be willing to admit she's in love because I think she knows love has to be tested a little first. It was a step forward for them, but I wanted to be careful and not have it be an impractically huge step forward.

Now, on your thoughts:

Thank you so much for letting Tarn walk off into the sunset with Ella. Since the Dastan Quest she has had a real effect on him and I think it was the perfect conclusion. What you wrote for the passages within the lost book was lovely and a fitting end.

I think the Quest was a bit slow in places, but that couldn't be helped. It wasn't a WORLD-SHATTERING EPIC like some Zepher Quests but there was enough of a hook and mystery to the story. Zeph, your NPCs are always very well fleshed out and I loved Captain Lane. The ship battle was innovative but I must admit, I thought that the Guardian Angel would only protect the players and not the ship. That might have made things harder.

I'm glad you were happy with the ending!

Fun quest, Zepher. Thanks for your time. I had a surprisingly great time with the PCs and even a couple of the NPCs as well, which was really nice. As I believed I mentioned at the end of 59, I always am a bit nervous about questing with heroes with widely different views and beliefs than Pretzel's or heroes who are very vocal about their beliefs, as it's not always too easy to try to come up with semi-rational reasons for why Pretzel believes the way he does. Perhaps the reasons Pretzel and Arthur seemed to get along so well was because neither of us were too eager to get them into a bit argument, I don't know. I have to say that it was really fun questing with both Tarn and Arthur. It was incredibly easy to bounce things off of Arthur and it turned out to be very fun talking with him. Flipz was very generous and gave me a lot to work off. Tarn is still awesome and Rumble Strike plays him perfectly. I can hardly see anyone else playing the role nearly as well as Rumble Strike does.

Ella and Captain Lane were fun to talk with and I liked the ideas behind your battles. They were interesting and somehow not run of the mill, albeit the first ones were definitely on the easy side.I enjoyed the ship battle mechanic as well.

Thanks so much for hosting me!

I am genuinely honored you allowed me to QM your final quest. I hate writing too much text for the game - I fear no one will read huge chunks - so I'm glad you liked the book passages. I tried to keep them short but still with a punch.

I'm glad you liked Lane - I like him too, and he'll be back (he has a cameo in 84 as well). That's a good suggestion for the ship battle! Thanks for letting me test it on you. And as I said, - I think more "small" quests will make the world happier, though I do have epics in the works once more!

Ella and Captain Lane were fun to talk with and I liked the ideas behind your battles. They were interesting and somehow not run of the mill, albeit the first ones were definitely on the easy side.I enjoyed the ship battle mechanic as well.

I am also working on shorter and easier battles - heavy hitting low-health opponents. More jeopardy, less time. Glad you liked them!

A couple of things:

*Zeph, be careful about your treatment of class skills, especially with your characters' attitudes with regards to Diplomacy. You did well with Abel, but a little bit with the thug at the start and especially with the Golden Automaton in particular it started to feel like my Diplomacy skill was totally useless, and the same thing went for my Spellcasting attempt (which was the whole reason I was sent down in the first place ). It worked out well, but like you told me about pre-planned RP in 38: be careful.

I will work harder on it! But the Golden Automaton simply couldn't be swayed in any way shape or form. I usually allow some things to work out (like Hoke asking for help in 88 right now is because of a job trait) but some enemies simply can't be swayed. And you know why the spell-casting couldn't ork - can't change the past.

I really, really disliked the ship battle, though. Rumble and Pala navigated it brilliantly (even a naive barbarian can learn from the strategic genius of Atramor, it seems ) but Tarn....was almost entirely useless. I'm glad you gave them Captain Lane to balance things out, but heroes should never be irrelevant in battle, nor should they be penalized in such an extreme way for not having a certain battle style. Just my thoughts there.

Thank you for the praise and the thoughts! I will rework it majorly before employing it again!

I think that ship battle would have gone a little better if there were things Tarn and U'Voros could have done on their ship to affect the battle (i.e. trim the sails, evasive maneuvers, returning fire via mounted cannons, etc.).

Thank you for the suggestions! Those are very good ideas. I will probably adopt them. I DO plan to use the ship battle again at least once or twice, and maybe other QMs will help me perfect it!

The undersea battle was meant for anyone. I actually really like that Arthur went too, I think it offered him AND Tarn pretty great character moments.

Character analysis tomorrow, I always end up writing so much more than I mean to at the end of the quest, I just like sharing my process I suppose! Again, thanks for coming along!

[Rumble Strike]

I thought you played Ella very well. It is clear she has a lot going on inside her head, but she keeps to very formal speech, the bare necessity to convey what she means. It feels like she is very down to earth, very to the point. She is certainly no simpering lovesick damsel in distress, never has been.

I hopefully haven't been too over the top with Tarn. Flipz mentioned the boat roleplaying, but that was him really opening himself to her and telling her about his past. It's taken two and a half years for him to talk about it, even if I have alluded to it now and again OOC. I think their feelings have grown pretty organically, and provided storyline and impetus for Tarn in several quests after Dastan.

[Kintobor]

I guess I'll comment on The Prophetess and the Warrior, since I did follow it rather well. I'll make it brief since everyone's already commented on it, but I think I'll still throw my two cents in still just for fun.

I liked it! It was short, to the point, and it's story was a good send off to Tarn. You managed to do well having a quest centre around a specific hero, yet still include the other members and ensure that they were still important to the quest, sort of like a shortened, sweet, less scarring #70.

Your characters are always fun, Zepher, and I really dig Sir Abel. You did a good job portraying Heroica's equivalent to the Templars from Assassin's Creed. Also, I love the inclusion of the Iron Knuckle's specials being spread out throughout the fight, it made it feel more streamlined and authentic. I'll probably wind up using him at some point, since I do own all the parts for him.

I will also say that the Ship Battle mechanic, while interesting, needs some tuning. Everything that's been said about it has been, so I'll leave it at that.

All in all, good stuff from you!

[Palathadric]

"Ah, yes, Sir Abel was great. I wish Pretzel could have sided with him...

[Kintobor]

Is that a potential Order Imperial candidate I see?

[Palathadric]

Is that a potential Order Imperial candidate I see?

Of course.

[Waterbrick Down]

Calm your stuff, I did it when you asked. But yes, I did do it out of spite for not being revived. I personally think not reviving someone when you absolutely have the ability to is extremely rude or however you want to call it. If you want to blame someone for holding up your quest. You should look elsewhere. This battle could have been done much quicker if people were active and had revived others.

As the fellow QM in the matter, I see it as a point to not interfere if the character is going to be selfish. Gut's did state in bold that he was not sharing the loot, if that turns to the party beating his character over the head on purpose next battle or in some other way alienating his character from everybody else, that's his fault. I'll say it maybe in rather bad form to insist as a player someone revive you, especially when there are other characters who also were KO'd and were not begging to be revived, but if it's consistent to the character...

Edited March 19, 2014 by Waterbrick Down

[Scubacarrot]

My first action when I would be revived would be to revive the next person. But hey.

[Waterbrick Down]

My first action when I would be revived would be to revive the next person. But hey.

Then you are a more generous player than some.

[CMP]

I don't mind selfish characters, but that was just blatant abuse of being the party leader, and I didn't feel like it was fair to anybody.

[Waterbrick Down]

Edit: Redacted statement.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Waterbrick Down

[Zepher]

I agree that a) QMs should not interfere unless absolutely necessary and b) it is extremely poor form to be bitter about not being revived. But things generally work themselves out. If Guts continued to abuse his power, his team mates probably would not have respected or trusted him, in character, and out of character I highly doubt he would have been asked to PL again.

[Scubacarrot]

I stand by my initial action. People would have gotten their loot. Eventually. You know I am not going to keep it for myself, how long have we been playing this game? QM interfering, and with this incident included, is things I wouldn't want. I doubt you'd like it very much if I did anything of the sort in my quest. Pro tip: Don't cheat people out of experience. It's wasting their time in the quest. Loot is bonus, experience is expected.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Scubacarrot

[Zepher]

Experience is not expected. There should always be the possibility of being KO'd. Otherwise there'd be no point to the battles. You guys didn't do well in the battle, that was strategy, so you don't get the experience. It happens.

[CMP]

I don't think anyone would've enjoyed having to try and appeal to Guts' sense of generosity in order to get their share of loot. We're trying to synchronize three quests here, nobody has that kind of time.

Loot is bonus, experience is expected.

You haven't been on enough Zepher quests. I try not to expect either anymore.

[Scubacarrot]

it is extremely poor form to be bitter about not being revived.

I disagree immensely. Even though I wouldn't say I'm bitter, I'd say it's only reasonable to suggest that you use your consumables to make sure as many people get experience as possible. People invest time into battles, the reward is a stronger character due to experience.

[UsernameMDM]

Pro tip: Don't cheat people out of experience. It's wasting their time in the quest. Loot is bonus, experience is expected.

Pro tip: Develop a strategy so your PC and party won't get knocked out.

Experience is not guaranteed, otherwise everyone would get it no matter their condition at the end of the battle.

Not everyone gets a trophy. That's how life works.

[CMP]

People invest time into battles, the reward is a stronger character due to experience.

And loot.

[Scubacarrot]

You guys didn't do well in the battle, that was strategy, so you don't get the experience. It happens.

You call it strategy, I call it special damage. Either way. Of course you get KO'ed, and sometimes you don't get experience. But hey, there's a thing to prevent that, it's called phoenix essences, essentially it's something that lets you get experience after you get ko'ed by throwing money at someone's knocked out face.

Pro tip: Develop a strategy so your PC and party won't get knocked out.

I was totally fine until two extremely unlucky special damages knocked me out. After that, it was out of my hands.

And loot.

As I said, I consider any loot bonus.

Not everyone gets a trophy. That's how life works.

I'm not sure if you realize it, but this is not life.

[Waterbrick Down]

We've had this discussion earlier when it came to lower level heroes being KO'd, most party members don't feel it's a good enough investment or think they'll save the essences till when they are absolutely necessary.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Waterbrick Down