Does anyone know the origin of "Lego wouldn't have made adventures if they had Indiana jones license"?

[PaleozoicBricks]

So I'm doing research on adventures and I've heard this claim thrown around before, mostly in YouTube videos. But I have absolutely no idea where the claim originated from. If someone has a lead on where it originated from that would be much appreciated.

[Oky]

Are you talking about Adventurers or adventures in general? I’m assuming it’s the former, but either way, I haven’t heard this before. To me it just sounds like speculation based on the similarities between the themes, but maybe someone else knows more. 
 

Regardless, I’m glad we got Adventurers first. 

[PaleozoicBricks]

The Lego theme Adventures that started in 1998 ending in 2003. Staring Johnny Thunder. Hopefully that helps.

[icm]

There were no Indiana Jones films in development in 1998. The first major license was Star Wars in 1999, so the designers of the Adventurers theme didn't have the option to pursue the Indiana Jones license at the time. The success of the Adventurers theme between 1998 and 2003 gave Lucasfilm confidence that Lego could do a licensed Indiana Jones theme justice for the 2008 movie.

[PaleozoicBricks]

6 minutes ago, icm said:

There were no Indiana Jones films in development in 1998. The first major license was Star Wars in 1999, so the designers of the Adventurers theme didn't have the option to pursue the Indiana Jones license at the time. The success of the Adventurers theme between 1998 and 2003 gave Lucasfilm confidence that Lego could do a licensed Indiana Jones theme justice for the 2008 movie.

So did the designers say this anywhere?

[icm]

I have no source for that. 

[Slegengr]

I can't answer your question, but I am absolutely glad that we got Adventurers and Johnny Thunder before licensing Indiana Jones.  The similarities are obvious, but Adventurers seems to fit LEGO's values better leaving the theme open to doing what they want rather than being limited to a licensed theme as well as being in full control on what is included (maybe more child-friendly than Indiana Jones, though the inclusion of all the weapons could still make the themes comparable).

As it is, I am firmly of the opinion that original themes are far better for LEGO's ideals than licensed themes and I like them a lot better as well, probably due to nostalgia as an early 90's kid.

It is quite likely from a marketing stand-point that LEGO would not have produced a similar theme like Adventurers if they were producing Indiana Jones sets under license, since the similarities would likely cause the themes to hinder sales for each other.  I've heard (without sources to back this up) that this is a similar issue as to why LEGO does not produce much for Space sets in contrast with Star Wars sets.  Even though I dislike it since I prefer the LEGO originals, licensed themes draw more attention and generate more sales due to pop culture.  Two similar themes will not sell as well individually as only one theme of the type, and the licensed themes will almost surely outsell original themes every time.

[legoturtle]

Some people say it goes like this:

...

LEGO Space -> Star Wars

Castle -> LOTR & Hobbit, Ninjago, Harry Potter

Pirates -> Pirates of the Caribbean

Adventurers -> Indiana Jones, Dreamzzz

Aquazone, Atlantis -> Avatar (under water)

Dino, Dino Attack -> Jurassic Park Franchise

 

There might be even more examples. People think buying license is expensive. BUT what is the cost when you have to make your own theme, like for example Ninjago. You need movies, tv show, explain everyone who the characters are, what is story and so on...

Edited December 15, 2023 by legoturtle

[Black Falcon]

I wouldn´t count Dreamzz towards the Adventurers theme. Also I am not sure what your are trying to say here ;).

[Lyichir]

I don't know if there's a source on this as a statement, but I also don't totally think it's totally wrong. Not so much in the sense that "Lego would have rather have had the Indiana Jones license at the time Adventurers came out"—since Adventurers predated the start of licensed themes based on movies altogether, and came out at a time when Indiana Jones as a franchise was more or less inactive—but in the sense that in a scenario where Lego did already have the Indiana Jones theme, the Adventurers theme would likely either not happen or look very different overall. After all, if Lego currently had a license for Indiana Jones sets, they probably wouldn't launch a theme with such blatant genre similarities (which Adventurers definitely had, particularly in the first two years and Orient Expedition) alongside it. Similarly, if Lego had had the Jurassic Park license in 2000 (when Lego had already started to dip their toe into licensed movie themes with Star Wars), they probably wouldn't have launched a dinosaur-focused expansion to Adventurers at the same time—the two would have so much obvious overlap as to make them redundant. The lack of any similar licensed or unlicensed themes at the time was a big part of what led the Adventurers theme to take the sort of shape it took.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Lyichir

[PaleozoicBricks]

I talked with R.R. Slugger about this topic, and might have miss understood the statement. It seems most people say that referring to the way Lego conducts themselves today but not in their past. He's not the only person to have said that statement. I know others have been saying that for years. 

[TalonCard]

I've heard this as well, and similar statements about Back to the Future and Time Cruisers. I think it's a misunderstanding and an oversimplification of the way LEGO themes were designed and released in the 1980s and 1990s, but it may not be entirely untrue. It's probably borne out of speculation since for a long time there wasn't a lot of information available about the internal development of these themes. It's true that LEGO themes were inspired by all kinds of pop culture elements, and films are no exception, but releasing a theme to capitalize on a very recent successful movie or specifically because a licensing deal couldn't be reached wasn't typical of LEGO in the 80s and 90s.

More recently the Secret Life of LEGO Bricks and Blocks Magazine #104 have shed some light on the development of early LEGO themes in general and Adventurers specifically. If LEGO hadn't been concerned with being confused with Indiana Jones, we might have seen Adventurers sets sooner.

"Concurrently [with Western], designers pitched another idea that had been kicking around in various forms since the early 1980s, when Daniel August Krentz, Jens Nygaard Knudsen, and Niels Milan Pedersen developed some prototype themes based on Tarzan and King Solomon's Mines. Those earlier forays had ben shut down when the Indiana Jones films began to be released, as with Asterix it was thought that children might mistakenly believe the sets were based on the movies. By the mid 1990s Indiana Jones was far enough in the rearview mirror that a LEGO theme based on archaeology and tomb raiding would not be considered derivative."
-The Secret Life of LEGO Bricks, page 110

While the description of the earliest stages of the theme seems to downplay Indiana Jones's role in inspiring the theme as released, a later passage makes the connection clearer:

"Special parts...all of which would help LEGO Adventurers endure for four distinct waves between 1998 and 2003, when it took its final bow just before the launch of the very franchise that had inspired it: a licensed Indiana Jones theme."
-Page 113

An interview with LEGO designer Niels Milan Pedersen in Blocks Magazine #104 expands on this further, and does give some credence to the notion that no Indiana Jones license=Adventurers, though it seems to be presented more as a theoretical consideration in retrospect than something that was actually considered.

"Early discussions around the theme took
place in the 1980s. 'The Indiana Jones movies were out, but we didn't have any IPs [intellectual properties] yet,' Niels says. 'We hadn't tried that and the company was not big enough at that point to actually get the license.
The LEGO Group was cautious back then; not only was the company not acquiring licenses, but the company was actively avoiding themes that could look as if they were copying existing material. There was concern that children might buy a set based on Ancient Rome, thinking it was tied to the popular Asterix comic books and animated films, so such themes were avoided altogether.
Given the era Niels had grown up in, his influences went back much further than Raiders of the Lost Ark, to old films, serials and pulp novels--the same stories that had inspired George Lucas and Steven Spielberg when they came up with their new film franchise
'My boss, Jens Nygaard Knudsen, was this amazing guy with the greatest imagination of any person I have ever met. As a kid, he was into the Tarzan books and all those stories with the explorers
As a kid, I too was always very much into these explorers."

[PaleozoicBricks]

2 hours ago, TalonCard said:

More recently the Secret Life of LEGO Bricks and Blocks Magazine #104 have shed some light on the development of early LEGO themes in general and Adventurers specifically. If LEGO hadn't been concerned with being confused with Indiana Jones, we might have seen Adventurers sets sooner.

I feel really dumb by not looking in the "Secret Life of Lego Bricks". I literally quoted it in my introduction episode of my Chima retrospective. I'm working on a video on Adventures and I wanted to finally source this claim. 

[legoturtle]

If we think about what is an Indiana Jones license? What does it hold? Can LEGO make Adventurers where is very similar main character... with a whip? It can't be 1:1 copy... so maybe it has been good idea to get as many licenses. For example in that new Golden Idol temple, TLG has taken some "own rights" and put there some colour pattern which is not in the movie.

So what I am trying to say is that now a days if we talk about dinosaurs - what we think? Well quite many of us think about movies, Jurassic Park Franchise (Jurassic World). AND even today when we think adventure - I would say that Indiana Jones is still most famous around the world. So it has to be so much easier for TLG to just try to get more and more licenses ...

...

and we can see this with their own theme Dreamzzz... it is not easy to market that, in this world where there is so many different products.

Edited December 17, 2023 by legoturtle

[PaleozoicBricks]

7 hours ago, legoturtle said:

If we think about what is an Indiana Jones license? What does it hold? Can LEGO make Adventurers where is very similar main character... with a whip? It can't be 1:1 copy... so maybe it has been good idea to get as many licenses. For example in that new Golden Idol temple, TLG has taken some "own rights" and put there some colour pattern which is not in the movie.

I think adventures is better because it stays true to the Lego groups core values. The fact Lego had to cancel a set from the new wave because of the its values not matching up with the movie is proof enough for me, and I don't think most scenes beside stuff like the golden idol,  is fit for Lego. When the movies main villain's are the reason you refuse to make war toys, I think it says something.

[legoturtle]

Well, about WAR toys? Pirates, Castle, LOTR, Star Wars and many many others...?

Nazis are similar to Blacktron or for example Black Falcons or the Empire in Star Wars universe.

Edited December 18, 2023 by legoturtle

[Oky]

 

On 12/15/2023 at 7:00 PM, PaleozoicBricks said:

 I'm working on a video on Adventures 

The theme is called Adventurers, not adventures, hence my earlier confusion. I hope you use the correct name in your video. 

12 hours ago, legoturtle said:

So it has to be so much easier for TLG to just try to get more and more licenses

Not necessarily. As others mentioned, with licensed themes they have to figure out how to adapt the source material into a set that is fun and fits into their brand values instead of just developing a concept that is made to be a LEGO set. And it’s not like they don’t do a bunch of marketing for licensed themes as well. Just look at all the countless video games and animated specials for Star Wars, Superheroes, Jurassic World, etc. 
 

40 minutes ago, legoturtle said:

Nazis are similar to Blacktron or for example Black Falcons or the Empire in Star Wars universe.

WOAH! You’re not wrong about the Empire, but comparing harmless old LEGO factions to Nazis is going a bit too far! 

I’m starting to get the feeling that you’re just a troll trying to stir up trouble by hating on popular themes and asking for the whole forum to be restructured. 

[legoturtle]

On the Middle Ages there was bad factions also. Like Vikings who robbed whole villages and killed everyone. Watch movie (The Northman). Black Falcons are "bad faction" ... "the bad guys". Also Blacktron are a bit more evil factions. Spy ships and so on. Black colour. I don't see Nazis so different if think about history. Also the Empire in Star Wars kind of represent that ultimate evil which Nazis are known for. In Indiana Jones franchise Indiana Jones who is a professor in university and also treasure hunter fights againts Nazis which is also very interesting. (5 movies).

[JopieK]

Maybe we should keep the discussion a little more on track @legoturtle and @Oky.

Some nazis were really really evil. A lot were just opportunists or blind sheep. Apart from that, there were also a lot of other heinous people in the past that weren't nazi's (e.g. Pol Pot and Nero to name just two). And very rare, but there was even a good SS-guy in Auschwitz (Hans Münch) who refused to participate in the mass murders, but this is a LEGO forum and the topic was Indiana Jones and not on nazi's, even though I find it really peculiar that LEGO violated it's own rules and included fairly recent military factions into official sets (e.g. 7622) albeit without using symbols that refer to axis/nazi's.

[Peppermint_M]

I think you really need to work on tone, maybe read up on a little history. 

1 hour ago, legoturtle said:

On the Middle Ages there was bad factions also. Like Vikings who robbed whole villages and killed everyone. Watch movie (The Northman). Black Falcons are "bad faction" ... "the bad guys". Also Blacktron are a bit more evil factions. Spy ships and so on. Black colour. I don't see Nazis so different if think about history. Also the Empire in Star Wars kind of represent that ultimate evil which Nazis are known for. In Indiana Jones franchise Indiana Jones who is a professor in university and also treasure hunter fights againts Nazis which is also very interesting. (5 movies).

Pillaging and raiding/set up in "opposition" to a faction with a more "good" look... is a lot different to the systematic extermination of specific groups based on ethnicity, religion, disability or politics. (NGL, they would want me dead for a number of reasons, and my whole family)

As someone based in Finland, I would have thought it would be well documented for you to learn. 

[Oky]

1 hour ago, legoturtle said:

Blacktron are a bit more evil factions. Spy ships and so on. Black colour. I don't see Nazis so different if think about history.

You have a seriously messed up worldview if you can’t tell the difference between some fictional spacemen who simply steal stuff and actual friggin Nazis. LEGO Vikings are not the ones you see in The Northman or history books. They’re LEGO’s kid friendly version who just fight mythological creatures. Same with the Nazis in Indiana Jones who you will never see referred to as such or ever wear a swastika. 
To bring this back on topic, this is why it made sense for LEGO to make their own adventure theme first where the villains are just rival treasure hunters and where the treasures weren’t religious artifacts. It allowed them to make sets without dancing around these problematic topics and have a lot more creative freedom than merely changing some colors on a temple wall. 

[legoturtle]

This set for example... how this is different from let say Star Wars the Empire? I mean, if you shoot with laser gun and someone dies. Or you use force to innocent and it dies... then there is themes like: Pirates, Castle and Western. So that kind of WAR is ok? I am not saying Nazis are good, they are evil faction.

Edited December 18, 2023 by legoturtle

[Peppermint_M]

The topic was asked to be dropped, this thread is not the place for that discussion. 

Ok. Drawing a line now. So no more off topic discussion here.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

50 minutes ago, Oky said:

Nazis in Indiana Jones who you will never see referred to as such or ever wear a swastika.

Isn't this a looking away by TLG from an awfull past?
They actually should have completely stayed far away from this.

[PaleozoicBricks]

18 hours ago, legoturtle said:

Well, about WAR toys? Pirates, Castle, LOTR, Star Wars and many many others...?

Nazis are similar to Blacktron or for example Black Falcons or the Empire in Star Wars universe.

Honestly I've seen  Blacktron as more of a Crime syndicate and less of a militaristic force. Its really modern warfare of Lego showing I have an issue with. I look at it as if you can show it on an 80's cartoon its probably fine. 

@TalonCard Thank you for your response. Its going to be the most helpful for this video! 

Edited December 19, 2023 by PaleozoicBricks