LEGO #21344 - Orient Express

[ElGreco]

Hello again,

Following @Train of Thought Creations post with the bricklink list of parts needed for the motorization of OE, I was wondering if @R0Sch and @ToledoRails could also post the bricklink lists of parts of their motorization projects?

Note:

@R0Sch it would be nice to have the bricklink list of parts for both versions 3 and 4.

[zephyr1934]

7 hours ago, Ferro-Friki said:

Anyway, here’s a render of how that would look like:

Very nice. The EN looks a little short height-wise next to the new cars, but still better than the OE loco. I wonder if you could use the curved slopes with stripes that came with the OE and obviously, use the rods from the OE. Update some of the EN cheese slopes with curved slopes that were not available back then. There is also some nice detailing in the OE cab that would be good to carry over. I also wonder how hard it would be to raise the EN boiler and cab one brick.

[Selander]

43 minutes ago, zephyr1934 said:

Very nice. The EN looks a little short height-wise next to the new cars, but still better than the OE loco. I wonder if you could use the curved slopes with stripes that came with the OE and obviously, use the rods from the OE. Update some of the EN cheese slopes with curved slopes that were not available back then. There is also some nice detailing in the OE cab that would be good to carry over. I also wonder how hard it would be to raise the EN boiler and cab one brick.

Proportionwise, I'd prefer lowering the OE wagons instead of making a beautiful loco higher.

[lego3057]

The next BIG DEAL will be someone that does the obvious thing: transform the 2 out of scale cars in one well done scaled car and mod the lokomotive into something also more scale-like, and also easily motorisable. In both cases, that means, basically, make them longer.

Edited December 3, 2023 by lego3057

[ElGreco]

And the first motorisation MOC appeared in RB:

https://rebrickable.com/mocs/MOC-165803/StijnD/21344-orient-express-motorization-powered-up/#details

And there is a reference to black rubber belts to replace the red x37 in the link below:

https://habricks.com/shop/black-rubber-belts-10x/

I still have no idea which size L, XL etc is appropriate for our case (x37 replacement).

Edited December 3, 2023 by ElGreco

[Toastie]

21 minutes ago, ElGreco said:

And the first motorisation MOC appeared in RB

With PUp L-motor - that will for sure work fine! And then use SetSpeed and the OE will run with constant speed on your layouts. Lovely!

The cable may be a bit challenging, but they sure have figured that out.

Happy motorization!

Best,
Thorsten

[zephyr1934]

9 hours ago, Selander said:

Proportionwise, I'd prefer lowering the OE wagons instead of making a beautiful loco higher.

The fundamental problem is that the EN was built for a lower car than the OE cars. Aesthetically you are spot on, but at that point it would need a complete reworking to lower them, which would disrupt the interior. From the perspective that this is a set of passenger cars that has a locomotive tossed on as an afterthought, the locomotive probably needs to adapt to meet the cars.

Entry level AFOL- buy the crocodile and call it a day

Someone just starting to MOD sets- keep the locomotive mostly unchanged but get a motor in there.

Someone comfortable with acquiring parts and working from instructions- MOD the EN or find instructions for a more compatible locomotive (I'm sure it is only a matter of weeks if not days until we start seeing those appear)

Medium MOCer- build a better engine

Expert MOCer- the OE is a parts pack to build some seriously awesome cars (longer and maybe lower) and match it to an equally nice locomotive MOC (could be pre-existing)

 

1 hour ago, ElGreco said:

And the first motorisation MOC appeared in RB:

https://rebrickable.com/mocs/MOC-165803/StijnD/21344-orient-express-motorization-powered-up/#details

And there is a reference to black rubber belts to replace the red x37 in the link below:

https://habricks.com/shop/black-rubber-belts-10x/

I still have no idea which size L, XL etc is appropriate for our case (x37 replacement).

Okay, I think StijnD (the designer of the MOC/MOD) did an amazing job reverse engineering most of the elements that the Lego designers probably did for motorization that led to the shape of this locomotive. I see three problems with this design, two are minuscule the other is only a small problem.

1. does not have bushings to keep the crown gears in place, but they can easily be added
2. did not preserve the "boiler tubes" in the smokebox, but this unseen detail could easily be added back in if someone wants it
3. does not have anything locking the motor to the drivers, e.g., a technic beam. As built there is a risk that the motor could "pop up," disengaging the top crown gears. By moving the motor forward one stud there's probably room to build something in, but it would also increase the number of new parts needed (which I suspect StijnD was trying to minimize)

 

[something_fabulous]

3 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

The fundamental problem is that the EN was built for a lower car than the OE cars. Aesthetically you are spot on, but at that point it would need a complete reworking to lower them, which would disrupt the interior. From the perspective that this is a set of passenger cars that has a locomotive tossed on as an afterthought, the locomotive probably needs to adapt to meet the cars.

Entry level AFOL- buy the crocodile and call it a day

Someone just starting to MOD sets- keep the locomotive mostly unchanged but get a motor in there.

Someone comfortable with acquiring parts and working from instructions- MOD the EN or find instructions for a more compatible locomotive (I'm sure it is only a matter of weeks if not days until we start seeing those appear)

Medium MOCer- build a better engine

Expert MOCer- the OE is a parts pack to build some seriously awesome cars (longer and maybe lower) and match it to an equally nice locomotive MOC (could be pre-existing)

 

Okay, I think StijnD (the designer of the MOC/MOD) did an amazing job reverse engineering most of the elements that the Lego designers probably did for motorization that led to the shape of this locomotive. I see three problems with this design, two are minuscule the other is only a small problem.

1. does not have bushings to keep the crown gears in place, but they can easily be added
2. did not preserve the "boiler tubes" in the smokebox, but this unseen detail could easily be added back in if someone wants it
3. does not have anything locking the motor to the drivers, e.g., a technic beam. As built there is a risk that the motor could "pop up," disengaging the top crown gears. By moving the motor forward one stud there's probably room to build something in, but it would also increase the number of new parts needed (which I suspect StijnD was trying to minimize)

 

Hey there, I'm the one that designed the instructions on rebrickable and wanted to adress some points.

-I didnt include bushes because (according to stud.io) they would collide with the 4L axle that goes vertical, but it shouldnt be a big problem.
-What do you mean with "did not preserve the boiler tubes in the smokebox"? The only 2 pieces I left out are the 1871 on the right side and 29119 to allow the PU cable to be passed through, every other detail should still be there. I followed the original instructions while making this modified one so besides internals and the little hole to pass the cables through it should be 1:1. (realised you meant the grey technic pieces at the front, Yeah I used those parts elsewhere in the model since nobody is ever going to upen that up anyways).
-I have multiple locomotives that have the motor only attached to 4 1x2 jumpers, pulling about 15k pieces worth of coaches with buwizz (I attend to lego train events). You wont have to worry about it not being secure, they have a lot more strength than you realise (https://imgur.com/a/VSx5xxB) . I will make a small modification that will make it impossible for the motor to move at all though.

Hope this informed you enough!

4 hours ago, ElGreco said:

And the first motorisation MOC appeared in RB:

https://rebrickable.com/mocs/MOC-165803/StijnD/21344-orient-express-motorization-powered-up/#details

And there is a reference to black rubber belts to replace the red x37 in the link below:

https://habricks.com/shop/black-rubber-belts-10x/

I still have no idea which size L, XL etc is appropriate for our case (x37 replacement).

I edited the description, L is the x37 replacement

Edited December 3, 2023 by something_fabulous

[ElGreco]

4 hours ago, something_fabulous said:

I edited the description, L is the x37 replacement

Excellent, thank you!

Regarding the modification you are about to do, will we need more pieces? I am about to place an order and would really like to know which pieces are needed.

Thank you!

Edited December 3, 2023 by ElGreco

[something_fabulous]

44 minutes ago, ElGreco said:

Excellent, thank you!

Regarding the modification you are about to do, will we need more pieces? I am about to place an order and would really like to know which pieces are needed.

Thank you!

All of the extra pieces (excluding the rubber belts) that you need should be included in the rebrickable parts list on my post. If you look at the instructions it will have highlighted parts that can be any color in medium lavender, so if you have some lose pieces laying around you can use those. Let me know if the modification properly works!

Edited December 3, 2023 by something_fabulous

[ElGreco]

8 minutes ago, something_fabulous said:

All of the extra pieces (excluding the rubber belts) that you need should be included in the rebrickable parts list on my post. If you look at the instructions it will have highlighted parts that can be any color in medium lavender, so if you have some lose pieces laying around you can use those. Let me know if the modification properly works!

Thanks for the info! Unfortunately it will take some time for the parts to arrive, plus I haven’t even started building the train due to lack of time :(

BTW, I suppose this L motor will need lots of power to move such a big train, so I would like to ask the following:

a. Is the medium motor also a good solution or the L motor is much better?

b. With the L motor, what kind of batteries you recommend to be used in the powered up hub for both duration and high voltage?

 

Thank you for your time!

[something_fabulous]

11 minutes ago, ElGreco said:

Thanks for the info! Unfortunately it will take some time for the parts to arrive, plus I haven’t even started building the train due to lack of time :(

BTW, I suppose this L motor will need lots of power to move such a big train, so I would like to ask the following:

a. Is the medium motor also a good solution or the L motor is much better?

b. With the L motor, what kind of batteries you recommend to be used in the powered up hub for both duration and high voltage?

 

Thank you for your time!

I would personally go with the L motor since it should have about 2x the power of an M motor if look around real quick (you can get them for as low as 11 euro's). I also designed the current setup around the L motor so an M might not sit as secure if you were to go with it anyways. As for batteries I'm not an expert in this field but I'm sure there are a lot videos on YT about this.

Edited December 3, 2023 by something_fabulous

[ElGreco]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:49 PM, ToledoRails said:

So I only have 100kb to work with on EuroBricks so I'm posting a couple Flickr Links but here's my adaptation of @Train of Thought Creations 21344 mod. I've opted to use a 1:1.67 Gear Ratio hooked up to a L-Motor. It's raised just a little higher in the boiler so its packed in with about a stud's clearance to run the wire back and out under the cab. I like his design, but I wanted to make sure there were no external differences to the actual set (apart from the rod improvement. I've also adjusted the ball joint to a 2x5 with steps for the tender so a crew could climb into the cab. I don't think the loss of power for an extra speed kick would be too bad... there's no way those coaches are worse than any 8 Wide cars made by fans.

Here's a look at the outside of the locomotive so you guys can see those steps better, plus a 2H9L Trained Brick rod fitted onto the main rod. I'm not overly happy that the wire would go above the tender deck to the battery box, but that's a problem for when I have a physical wire to work with.

Hi there! @ToledoRails

Kindly allow me to point a possible minor mistake in your list of parts… Instead of 8654 (which I cannot find in bricklink) I think it should write 18654. Please correct me if I am wrong.

30 minutes ago, something_fabulous said:

I would personally go with the L motor since it should have about 2x the power of an M motor if look around real quick (you can get them for as low as 11 euro's). I also designed the current setup around the L motor so an M might not sit as secure if you were to go with it anyways. As for batteries I'm not an expert in this field but I'm sure there are a lot videos on YT about this.

Thank you for both answers. @something_fabulous
I will stick wit the L motor concept and time permitting will try all solutions found in this forum for OE motorization.

Regarding the hub batteries I have watched many YT videos about it and ended up that LIPO ZNTER 9V are a good solution but are not readily available n EU.(BUWIZZ is far better but at a really high cost and I need 6!)

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by ElGreco

[ElGreco]

On 11/29/2023 at 4:16 PM, R0Sch said:

And here is V4 with rear driver powered instead of middle blind wheel just in case the power cable is too short: motorized_21344_v4.io

… 

@R0Sch If there are concerns about the length of the cable, perhaps you can adopt this solution as powered up cable extension:

https://www.lightmybricks.eu/collections/diy-powering-lego-lights/products/lego-powered-up-cable-power-functions-2-0

[Shiva]

19 hours ago, Selander said:

Proportionwise, I'd prefer lowering the OE wagons instead of making a beautiful loco higher.

Why not Scale up EN instead? Closer to rail scale and minifig scale.

+ your SJ Littera V5, looks nice.

[zephyr1934]

8 hours ago, something_fabulous said:

Hey there, I'm the one that designed the instructions on rebrickable and wanted to adress some points.

-I didnt include bushes because (according to stud.io) they would collide with the 4L axle that goes vertical, but it shouldnt be a big problem.
-What do you mean with "did not preserve the boiler tubes in the smokebox"? The only 2 pieces I left out are the 1871 on the right side and 29119 to allow the PU cable to be passed through, every other detail should still be there. I followed the original instructions while making this modified one so besides internals and the little hole to pass the cables through it should be 1:1. (realised you meant the grey technic pieces at the front, Yeah I used those parts elsewhere in the model since nobody is ever going to upen that up anyways).
-I have multiple locomotives that have the motor only attached to 4 1x2 jumpers, pulling about 15k pieces worth of coaches with buwizz (I attend to lego train events). You wont have to worry about it not being secure, they have a lot more strength than you realise (https://imgur.com/a/VSx5xxB) . I will make a small modification that will make it impossible for the motor to move at all though.

Hope this informed you enough!

First off, apologies my previous post probably did not come off the way I intended. The instructions are fantastic and thank you for sharing.

My experience with crown gears like this has not been great, but it was due to shattering the gears with an XL motor trying to pull too much weight rather than the gears coming loose. I typically over engineer my structures, my default is to lock the axles together to keep them from pulling apart, hence my comment. That is very reassuring that you have experience with this design. You might want to add 1-2 sentences in the instructions describing the fact that this is a proven design (as you did in your response above), I can't be the only knob out there. And if it works, there is not a need to lock the motor in.

So do you think the bushings are not needed either? For overly cautious people like me, I would just toss them in whether or not the instructions said to. For people who don't know, as long as it works fine with out the bushings no harm and you save them a few cents in parts.

And yes, I meant the dark gray technic bricks inside the smoke box. It's like when the lego designers build something inside a structure that you'll never see. It gave me a smile while building the set when I realized what they did. Completely non-functional and only seen while building.

 

[Train of Thought Creations]

@ElGreco & @Riggar I wanted to follow up after speaking with you both yesterday. My guide is now complete, and will be published sometime before Wednesday this week. I do not know if it will go live tomorrow or Tuesday, but you can be sure that when it does, I'll post a link here.
Also, for those wondering about the video tutorial I mentioned, this written/photographed one took the place of that. I'm much better with graphic work (Photoshop, in this case), photography, and writing than I am with YouTube video making

[Carefree_Dude]

1 hour ago, zephyr1934 said:

First off, apologies my previous post probably did not come off the way I intended. The instructions are fantastic and thank you for sharing.

My experience with crown gears like this has not been great, but it was due to shattering the gears with an XL motor trying to pull too much weight rather than the gears coming loose. I typically over engineer my structures, my default is to lock the axles together to keep them from pulling apart, hence my comment. That is very reassuring that you have experience with this design. You might want to add 1-2 sentences in the instructions describing the fact that this is a proven design (as you did in your response above), I can't be the only knob out there. And if it works, there is not a need to lock the motor in.

So do you think the bushings are not needed either? For overly cautious people like me, I would just toss them in whether or not the instructions said to. For people who don't know, as long as it works fine with out the bushings no harm and you save them a few cents in parts.

And yes, I meant the dark gray technic bricks inside the smoke box. It's like when the lego designers build something inside a structure that you'll never see. It gave me a smile while building the set when I realized what they did. Completely non-functional and only seen while building.

 

I busted a crown gear once, testing a big boy MOC I was creating that had 4x XL motors in it. I had the drive train all set up, and wanted to find out how much it could pull. It pulled a lot before the gear broke. 

[Selander]

4 hours ago, Shiva said:

Why not Scale up EN instead? Closer to rail scale and minifig scale.

+ your SJ Littera V5, looks nice.

This is solely a question of personal taste and preference...

For me, I like passenger trains that look low, long and sleek. The EN locomotive has got nice proportions, but OE coaches are out of proportions considering their ride height, and length*height*width...

Consequently I'd prefer making a complete rebuild of OE coaches to be slightly lower and with format as e g 7wide*48/50studs with ball bearing bogies for reduced friction. I'd keep the lovely external color scheme and try to maintain most of the interior. Those coaches could be pulled by an EN or a croc.

All this is imaginary...and will likely not be built by me...but I look very much forward to seeing all lovely MOD:s that I am sure this highly talented community will produce.

[something_fabulous]

On 12/4/2023 at 3:33 AM, zephyr1934 said:

First off, apologies my previous post probably did not come off the way I intended. The instructions are fantastic and thank you for sharing.

My experience with crown gears like this has not been great, but it was due to shattering the gears with an XL motor trying to pull too much weight rather than the gears coming loose. I typically over engineer my structures, my default is to lock the axles together to keep them from pulling apart, hence my comment. That is very reassuring that you have experience with this design. You might want to add 1-2 sentences in the instructions describing the fact that this is a proven design (as you did in your response above), I can't be the only knob out there. And if it works, there is not a need to lock the motor in.

So do you think the bushings are not needed either? For overly cautious people like me, I would just toss them in whether or not the instructions said to. For people who don't know, as long as it works fine with out the bushings no harm and you save them a few cents in parts.

And yes, I meant the dark gray technic bricks inside the smoke box. It's like when the lego designers build something inside a structure that you'll never see. It gave me a smile while building the set when I realized what they did. Completely non-functional and only seen while building.

 

Don't worry, it didnt come over like that. I usually try to overengineer stufff as well but In this particular case I don't think bushes are needed, if I did want to add them I'd have to change the design up anyways.
I already adjusted the instructions, it only took 4 1/2 technic pins, technically you could get away with only 2 at the front side.

Edited December 5, 2023 by something_fabulous

[*thomas*]

I have to admit I'm starting to like this set, but the engine remains and eye-soar. I've watched a few reviews and was baffled by the lack of quality control.

What intrigued me even more was the fact that it is already available as a counterfeit on many chinese websites. 

[lego3057]

On 12/4/2023 at 6:36 AM, Selander said:

This is solely a question of personal taste and preference...

For me, I like passenger trains that look low, long and sleek. The EN locomotive has got nice proportions, but OE coaches are out of proportions considering their ride height, and length*height*width...

Consequently I'd prefer making a complete rebuild of OE coaches to be slightly lower and with format as e g 7wide*48/50studs with ball bearing bogies for reduced friction. I'd keep the lovely external color scheme and try to maintain most of the interior. Those coaches could be pulled by an EN or a croc.

All this is imaginary...and will likely not be built by me...but I look very much forward to seeing all lovely MOD:s that I am sure this highly talented community will produce.

Hello

I think the cars are quite proportional (except for the lengh of course). The width was around 2,800 meters, so the problem is they are actually 9wide scale (if 9wide=3 meters). It´s because of  that they look very well with the krocodile 10277 wich was 8/9 wide in lenght/hight, althout 7 wide wide.

Edited December 5, 2023 by lego3057

[Selander]

58 minutes ago, lego3057 said:

Hello

I think the cars are quite proportional (except for the lengh of course). The width was around 2,800 meters, so the problem is they are actually 9wide (if 8wide=3 meters). It´s because of  that they look very well with the krocodile witch was 9 wide in lenght.

I am referring to Crocodile 10277 which in fact has a 6 2/3 - 7 wide body. Hence it is very proportional to go with my suggested 7wide OE coaches.

Note that I count 7w width over actual body and/or running boards. Not outside cosmetic rods/hand rails or such.

[M_slug357]

Crocodile and OE coaches. They look great together!!

[Elphiel]

1 hour ago, M_slug357 said:

Crocodile and OE coaches. They look great together!!

Great. Same plan like i have. Getting two OE sets and put the Croc in front. Will also recolor one of the Bar coaches with a tan upper half between the citiy names and doors like the new Venice Simplon OE are.