LEGO #21344 - Orient Express

[zephyr1934]

19 minutes ago, Space78 said:

I'm wondering for those on the 9V metal track system (like myself) if one could just put a 9V motor "truck" on one end of each carriage for power?  I would think two motors would be plenty of power for the train, and the carriages should supply enough weight to get goo traction in order to push the tender/engine.  Not an ideal configuration, but with 9V, you don't have to manage a space for a battery box or motor/gearing.  The non-powered truck could be appropriately modified to match the power truck in looks.

That is definitely the first thing to try if you are running on 9v track, it should have a very good chance of working

[R0Sch]

I came up with something to motorize the locomotive. But one medium Boost motor alone might not be enough, so another motor could be attached behind it to drive the same axle via another bevel gear. But the stability will suffer. Some rubber bands would also be needed on the drivers.
motorized_21344.io

[EmeraldBrick]

Just made an OE locomotive largely unchanged but with BBB XL drivers: 

[RedBrick1]

3 hours ago, EmeraldBrick said:

Just made an OE locomotive largely unchanged but with BBB XL drivers: 

Thank you for testing this out. This tweaks helps balance things out even further - I'm a fan!

[Train of Thought Creations]

Here's my first go at motorizing it with an L Motor.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1werZ1g7CcPsRKQIlJy2SR7QuIKg8zw8d/view?usp=sharing
There's a lot going on here, so if I find the time, I'll post a breakdown tomorrow. Next step is to build it with spare parts and see if it runs. I'll be testing it with the Blue Comet coaches, which should total to a similar weight. If all goes well, I hope to have a tutorial video out sometime at the end of release weekend.

[lego3057]

10 hours ago, R0Sch said:

I came up with something to motorize the locomotive. But one medium Boost motor alone might not be enugh, so another motor could be attached behind it to drive the same axle via another bevel gear. But the stability will suffer. Some rubber bands would also be needed on the drivers.
motorized_21344.io

 

I think there is space enough to put the motors in a vertical position, over the 2 flanged wheels. It is my favorite method, and they never come loose (just attach them witn black pins to a horizontal plate with holes). The problem with these medium  motors is they became expensive, because not produced anymore (PF and PU)

8 hours ago, EmeraldBrick said:

Just made an OE locomotive largely unchanged but with BBB XL drivers: 

 

Now I would add some studs to the boiler, to make it more scale like, and a medium BBB wheel at the back. Otherwise, I prefer the normal wheels.

Edited November 19, 2023 by lego3057

[Train of Thought Creations]

Just built the prototype and made a few changes, so I'll hold off on sharing it, and the details of the internals, until it's tested and working. Once I find the time, I hope to share the results with you all!

[R0Sch]

@Train of Thought Creations Relax! It's not a race who can make the first motorized OE. Most people will hold off on buying it until a decent discount is available anyway.

It's pretty clear that the only reason this set is not ready for motorization out of the box is because LEGO doesn't sell any small sized motors besides the train motor and the huge angular PUp motor and NOT because of some design challenges or "high weight". Therefore they didn't even bother with metal axles in the first place. It was supposed to be another UCS Hogwarts Express but due to the complaints of the size they "listened" and made it fit L-Gauge, but it was still supposed to be a display model only.

[Train of Thought Creations]

3 hours ago, R0Sch said:

@Train of Thought Creations Relax! It's not a race who can make the first motorized OE. Most people will hold off on buying it until a decent discount is available anyway.

It's pretty clear that the only reason this set is not ready for motorization out of the box is because LEGO doesn't sell any small sized motors besides the train motor and the huge angular PUp motor and NOT because of some design challenges or "high weight". Therefore they didn't even bother with metal axles in the first place. It was supposed to be another UCS Hogwarts Express but due to the complaints of the size they "listened" and made it fit L-Gauge, but it was still supposed to be a display model only.

Very true about it not being a race. It's a potentially collaborative effort that ought to put the quality of the design over the speed of production. I can't deny that there is a part of me that would love to debut the first, or be part of the first wave of working motor modifications, though. The frequency and speed of my posts here, however, comes down to wanting to keep everyone in the loop, so that folks can work off of my design if they want to see what everyone else is doing, or modify/upgrade an existing modification.

And speaking of posting to keep everyone in the loop, the test worked! - and worked well!
I'll update the studio model accordingly, and share both that and the footage sometime soon.

[ToledoRails]

On 11/18/2023 at 11:47 PM, Train of Thought Creations said:

Here's my first go at motorizing it with an L Motor.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1werZ1g7CcPsRKQIlJy2SR7QuIKg8zw8d/view?usp=sharing
There's a lot going on here, so if I find the time, I'll post a breakdown tomorrow. Next step is to build it with spare parts and see if it runs. I'll be testing it with the Blue Comet coaches, which should total to a similar weight. If all goes well, I hope to have a tutorial video out sometime at the end of release weekend.

I like this design and its definitely worth testing. My only concern about it is the position of the motor and if you'll have enough slack in the wire to rig it to the tender. It'll most definitely have the power but if I can convert the coaches to metal axles or Roller bearings, Going from a 20th tooth gear to 12 just for that little extra speed kick would be worth sacrificing some torque.

[Train of Thought Creations]

43 minutes ago, ToledoRails said:

I like this design and its definitely worth testing. My only concern about it is the position of the motor and if you'll have enough slack in the wire to rig it to the tender. It'll most definitely have the power but if I can convert the coaches to metal axles or Roller bearings, Going from a 20th tooth gear to 12 just for that little extra speed kick would be worth sacrificing some torque.

Thanks! Fortunately, the cable is just the right length to reach the tender, with a bit of slack!
I like sticking with all 12t gears because the model fits together really nicely with the positions those gears place all of the other components at - but if you want to modify the design for speed, and test its pulling power yourself, go to town my friend! I'll have the refined studio model up tonight for you and others to download and play around with.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Train of Thought Creations
grammatical error

[Space78]

9 hours ago, R0Sch said:

 It was supposed to be another UCS Hogwarts Express but due to the complaints of the size they "listened" and made it fit L-Gauge, but it was still supposed to be a display model only.

Wow, I did not know that.  I'm planning to get one of these set at some point, but if it had been too large to fit on Lego track, i would not have bought, especially at a higher price for a larger model.  That just confirms that Lego views this as a static model.  I may make me re-think purchasing one.  It's kind of sad because I really enjoy the more advanced models we got 2002-2013.  Unfortunately, Lego seems to have long given up on those.

I'm sure "9V trains" is small group here, but the OE is another example of where a "powered rail" (9V) system is way simpler.  I know Lego is a toy, but they are clearly marketing a number of sets to adults, the OE train included.  Does Lego not understand that the vast majority of model train fans want to run their trains?  That being said, I don't know of other successful model train systems that are battery operated.  It's kind of weird that Lego went from battery operated in the 4.5V system to rail powered (12V and 9V) and then backwards to battery operated, although with remote control capability.  I've read about it being a cost issue, especially in the cost cutting years in the mid 2000s.  But, it's also hard  to believe trains as a theme was/is big enough that raising the price of track would have been a deal breaker.  Needing to accommodate a battery box with enough power and life in a train model definitely constrains the design possibilities.  The Lego Santa Fe F-3 and BNSF GP-38 have fun interiors with a model of the diesel engine inside and other small details.  In contrast, no room for that in the Maersk GP-40, and it affects what the exterior can look like

[Lyichir]

31 minutes ago, Space78 said:

Wow, I did not know that.  I'm planning to get one of these set at some point, but if it had been too large to fit on Lego track, i would not have bought, especially at a higher price for a larger model.  That just confirms that Lego views this as a static model.  I may make me re-think purchasing one.  It's kind of sad because I really enjoy the more advanced models we got 2002-2013.  Unfortunately, Lego seems to have long given up on those.

I'm sure "9V trains" is small group here, but the OE is another example of where a "powered rail" (9V) system is way simpler.  I know Lego is a toy, but they are clearly marketing a number of sets to adults, the OE train included.  Does Lego not understand that the vast majority of model train fans want to run their trains?  That being said, I don't know of other successful model train systems that are battery operated.  It's kind of weird that Lego went from battery operated in the 4.5V system to rail powered (12V and 9V) and then backwards to battery operated, although with remote control capability.  I've read about it being a cost issue, especially in the cost cutting years in the mid 2000s.  But, it's also hard  to believe trains as a theme was/is big enough that raising the price of track would have been a deal breaker.  Needing to accommodate a battery box with enough power and life in a train model definitely constrains the design possibilities.  The Lego Santa Fe F-3 and BNSF GP-38 have fun interiors with a model of the diesel engine inside and other small details.  In contrast, no room for that in the Maersk GP-40, and it affects what the exterior can look like

As far as I'm aware it's not about cost so much as safety—Lego has moved away from most products that need to be wired to an AC outlet due to increasingly strict safety standards and the desire to go above and beyond those standards to avoid reputational risk. Battery-powered trains are generally safer for kids and don't require as many massive warning labels on product packaging that could worry parents.

[RichardGoring]

50 minutes ago, Space78 said:

... Does Lego not understand that the vast majority of model train fans want to run their trains?  ...

To be fair, the vast majority of children also want to run their trains. I don't think there is a huge market in any demographic for static display-only trains.

[R0Sch]

1 hour ago, Lyichir said:

As far as I'm aware it's not about cost so much as safety—Lego has moved away from most products that need to be wired to an AC outlet due to increasingly strict safety standards and the desire to go above and beyond those standards to avoid reputational risk. Battery-powered trains are generally safer for kids and don't require as many massive warning labels on product packaging that could worry parents.

So the 90s kids were much smarter than today's kids and could be entrusted to operate a simple voltage dial without getting electrocuted but now it's a big safety risk? And where are all the massive safety labels on the AC transformers that power the phones, tablets and laptops of children?

[M_slug357]

Safety is very mutch tied to cost. You can’t payback the investors if you owe a settlement to the consumers… So, its def cheaper for TLG to have battery ops versus wall powered track. The States ironically has higher standards for electrical safety than educational standards. Thats why we never got 12v trains like in Europe.

Go figure.

[Jon Reynolds]

It is a dilemma but I see why Lego have to take this stance; they are focussing specific models to a lucrative adult market yet should an injury occur, a jury would look at 'the Lego pieces' (which is basically what is being sold, irrespective of the marketing focus) and conclude that it is a kids toy.  Game over for any attempt by Lego to say it was safe because it was intended for adults only!

That doesn't make it any easier for me to accept the demise of track-powered trains, though.  We do, at least, have the excellent FX track offerings...though these are best suited for those of use with patience .

Back on topic and I am definitely in the camp of a very happy AFOL to see this Lego set.  I prefer it to the original IDEAS concept, for various reasons not least of which is that it is far more likely to be a commercial success.  We need that to happen for Lego to make the next one .

Jon

 

   

[Lyichir]

56 minutes ago, R0Sch said:

So the 90s kids were much smarter than today's kids and could be entrusted to operate a simple voltage dial without getting electrocuted but now it's a big safety risk? And where are all the massive safety labels on the AC transformers that power the phones, tablets and laptops of children?

Sigh... no, I'm not saying that (and in fact as a '90s kid myself HATE that kind of generational slander that tries to insist that today's kids are too dumb/have it too easy/etc.). I'm saying that literal laws have changed, often for good reason (consumer product safety protections are often written in blood).

I think another real practical reason Lego no longer does 9V trains is that for younger kids, a safer system is required, and Lego does not want the market confusion that would ensue if they had to market two separate train systems (9V and battery powered), especially when trains are such a small part of their portfolio overall. If you're only selling one "adult-targeted" train every year or two, selling powered track exclusively for those trains is probably not a particularly sound business model.

[dr_spock]

LEGO has mucho money and would make a good target for lawsuits.  LEGO recenlty re-molded their Technic Control+ hub to have screws.  Now we have to unscrew the case to get to the batteries. 

Kids will be kids. We had one kid at an event came up, grabbed a large LEGO wheel, and shoved the whole thing in his mouth with his parents watching. We were dumbfounded. Liability insurance seems like a necessity these days for train clubs.

[zephyr1934]

13 hours ago, R0Sch said:

It's pretty clear that the only reason this set is not ready for motorization out of the box is because LEGO doesn't sell any small sized motors besides the train motor and the huge angular PUp motor and NOT because of some design challenges or "high weight". Therefore they didn't even bother with metal axles in the first place. It was supposed to be another UCS Hogwarts Express but due to the complaints of the size they "listened" and made it fit L-Gauge, but it was still supposed to be a display model only.

I appreciate what you two are doing reverse engineering the set and then modifying it to make it self propelled. A huge thank you to both of you. However, if you look at the model, it clearly was designed for PU, the tender is the big give away, but I think they got far enough in development without getting the motorization working that they had to give up and keep going without it. My bet is that they simply did not have enough weight on the drivers to make it work around R40 curves. But we'll find out in under 2 weeks.

 

 

1 hour ago, R0Sch said:

So the 90s kids were much smarter than today's kids and could be entrusted to operate a simple voltage dial without getting electrocuted but now it's a big safety risk?

No, today's lawyers are a lot smarter than those in the 90's. Anyway, Lego did away with 9v (and almost all trains at the same time) because the 9v system was WAY more expensive to produce. One piece of plastic track costs a few cents. One piece of 9v track cost them about the same as what they sold it for. The plastic track was made in one facility, shipped to another facility to get the metal applied, then to a third to be packaged. Lego does not like including anything metal (axles, motors, battery boxes), it costs a lot more than the plastic. Why should a simple PU battery box (NOT The hub) cost $30?

[ForgedInLego]

On 11/18/2023 at 4:45 PM, R0Sch said:

I came up with something to motorize the locomotive. But one medium Boost motor alone might not be enough, so another motor could be attached behind it to drive the same axle via another bevel gear. But the stability will suffer. Some rubber bands would also be needed on the drivers.

Forgive me if this is unreliable at high torques, but could you power only the blind wheel and drive the flanged wheels with the connecting rods? With a proper 90 degree offset and axles between the wheels, it will leave more space for structure on the inside while using half the gears. 

Either way, keep up the good work, that double motor setup is awesome!

[Space78]

The reason for not having powered track can't possibly be for safety.  Is everyone aware that there are multiple track powered toy trains marketed to kids??? Lionel trains, MTH trains, lots of HO stuff, etc. etc.  All powered by rails, some AC (3 rail) some DC. 

I believe @zephyr1934 is correct, dropping 9V track was a cost cutting measure in the mid-2000s.  Holger Matthes says exactly that in The Lego Trains Book (2017, no starch press).  I get it, they were looking to cut costs at a time when they were on the edge of bankruptcy.  All I was reflecting was that battery power is a step backwards from track powered trains.  But let's face it, Lego has been retreating from "advanced  model" trains since 2013.  Horizon express was the last in a (roughly one every two years) line of more advanced train models.  Who knew that was going to be a golden era for Lego model trains?  After that Lego has not sought to market an advanced model train that is designed to be powered.  Lego keeps one freight train and one passenger train designed for children in it's City line, and that's really it for trains.  So, we are left with ideas sets (OE), and the odd time when a special model appears (2017 Crocodile).  Makes me wonder what happened after Horizon Express that caused Lego to abandon trains for advanced builders?

[Train of Thought Creations]

Here is the test video, and a photo of the prototype used for the test.
@ToledoRails, here you can get a good idea of the cable length if you were still concerned about that.
Anyhoo, I want to spend a bit more time refining the studio model (dividing it into groups for parts that need to be added vs reused, nice colors, etc...), so that'll arrive whenever I am satisfied with it. It may well be tonight

Edited November 21, 2023 by Train of Thought Creations
Embed failed first time

[Train of Thought Creations]

Here is the Studio file for the model, as well as a render that shows the general inner workings of the model.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GdF8gnV8qMdnqXBwYLaGCPI9JJdKdmgE/view?usp=sharing
Let me know if you have any questions!

Additionally, the red bands that act as traction tires are to be used on all 4 flanged driving wheels.

[RichardGoring]

2 hours ago, Train of Thought Creations said:

The Rainbow Express. I like it!

Great work on this, and fantastic progress. Thank you!