Story-Driven Castle Themes?

[Lego David]

In the "Future Castle sets" thread, there was a lot of discussion regarding whether Castle still resonates with modern kids or not, and one of most controversal points of discussion was whether giving a Castle theme a fully fledged story and characters would make it more popular. Some support the idea, while others are against it, because Castle should stay generic. But, just for the purpose of discussion, let's pretend that the only way kids will get engaged in a new Castle theme is through a story. If it were up to you, what kind of story do you think a Castle theme should have? Should it be something more "realsitic", like A Knight's Tale, or perhaps something more fantasy, in the same style as Lord of the Rings? What style of story do you think would fit best for a LEGO Castle theme? If jelly bean Ninjas riding in oversized vehicles can last for 10 years purley because it has a decent story and characters, I am pretty sure the same could happen with Castle, which is much more universal than Ninjas. 

So, if hypotetically the only way Castle could ever come back would be through a story, what kind of story do you personally think it should have? 

[MAB]

I don't care about a story as stories can be ignored. I'd care about what influence it had on the parts produced. If it meant that any knights were done in red, blue, yellow and green parts, different colours for each, then I (and no doubt others) wouldn't buy the sets. Does this mean the story had ruined the theme, or would they have done the same thing without a story?

Same with fantasy vs non-fantasy. I don't really see the existence of a story as being important. If they do a story based fantasy theme with a dragon, for example, it is likely to contain the same elements as a non-story based fantasy theme with a dragon. So people wanting fantasy based sets will probably want fantasy based stories, whereas people wanting more realistic castle will presumably want non-fantasy based stories.

[valon]

6 hours ago, Lego David said:

In the "Future Castle sets" thread, there was a lot of discussion regarding whether Castle still resonates with modern kids or not, and one of most controversal points of discussion was whether giving a Castle theme a fully fledged story and characters would make it more popular. Some support the idea, while others are against it, because Castle should stay generic. But, just for the purpose of discussion, let's pretend that the only way kids will get engaged in a new Castle theme is through a story. If it were up to you, what kind of story do you think a Castle theme should have? Should it be something more "realsitic", like A Knight's Tale, or perhaps something more fantasy, in the same style as Lord of the Rings? What style of story do you think would fit best for a LEGO Castle theme? If jelly bean Ninjas riding in oversized vehicles can last for 10 years purley because it has a decent story and characters, I am pretty sure the same could happen with Castle, which is much more universal than Ninjas. 

So, if hypotetically the only way Castle could ever come back would be through a story, what kind of story do you personally think it should have? 

i think it should be a combination i think a theme with 4 diffrent faction fighting with a few being fantasy and some being historical would be cool i like both fantasy and historical, so a castle theme that is fantasy i will be happy with but i will also like historical castle. people who do not liked name characters if thye have alot of them could just use them as soldier. I would not like a nexo knight techonolgy theme though

[Alexandrina]

I actually think something Lord of the Rings esque is the perfect balance between fans of realism and fans of fantasy (though non-human minifigures for one faction might annoy many people!) The magic system in Lord of the Rings is subtle compared to lots of fantasy, and much of the look is medieval inspired swordplay rather than crystal balls and hexes and "double, double, toil and trouble"! 

If there was to be a story, I would like something like that. Like MAB, I would have no interest in what the story was - but the parts and sets it would offer in a high fantasy pseudo-medieval Middle Earth sort of setting would be perhaps more interesting than a real-world-esque theme. Especially since Lego would never touch the politics and intrigue of the real Middle Ages in sets. 

[DaleDVM]

I am with MAB and Alexandrina here.  It is about the parts selection for me.  I own all of the the Knights Kingdom II sets.  But I only own one of each from the first year because I am a collector and had to buy them.  I find the jelly bean knights terrible!  Strangely, in the second year of KK II the minifigs and heraldry was pretty awesome, but alas the damage was done and the line came to an end.  IMHO it wasn't the story that killed KK II.  As soon as I saw the Jayko minifig in his baby blue armor, (baby blue?) I didn't even want to know what the story was!  So I think it is vital to have good sets to go along with a gripping story, otherwise it will still fail.  

However, if they are going to do a story driven castle series.  This is what I suggest.  Make the named good guys a series of leaders/heroes.  Make 5 factions.  A male wizard faction.  A female elf leader faction.  A male dwarf leader faction.  A female human hero faction.  A male human hero faction.  Then over time each faction can have some generic unnamed soldiers to expand those kingdoms.  These 5 factions need to ally to defeat a new threat... 

The evil faction should have a leader/warrior and sorcerer/sorceress plus plenty of non human generic soldiers.  This is classic for just about any fantasy franchise (Warhammer, Warcraft, LOTR, etc.)  LEGO doesn't need to pay for a license.  Nor are they violating any.  These are factions that everyone already knows.  They just need to make a few leaders to fill the story in.   

The key for kids is the obvious bad guy factions.  I truly believe this is why fantasy era castle sold so well.  
 

[Lyichir]

Personally I'm a fan of story-based themes, especially fantasy ones. There's a reason why my favorite "Castle" theme of all time is probably Elves.

That said, I think there's a lot of ways a Castle theme could approach its story. A lot of mid-90's themes didn't have a totally established "plot" but still had a rough outline of the story with named characters, which I think is an approach that could still work to some extent. Recently even the City theme has introduced named characters and a TV show featuring them, but apart from keeping those characters fairly consistent and highlighting their names on the boxes, very little has had to change about the set designs to allow for that.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Lyichir

[caiman0637]

My favorite part of a LEGO set is always the hidden details, easter eggs, and small play features concealed from view. I think that a story really adds to that, and I, for one, would love a story for an upcoming castle theme. 

I would like a story something like this: A huge diamond has been unearthed, and the (insert bad dude name here)s have stolen it. The courageous knights of the rectangular table must try to get it back. But a whole bunch of supposed-to-be-long-gone meanies are trying to get the diamond too. (Basil the Bat Lord has returned!) Chaos ensues. 

I like the idea of several warring factions, all going for the same thing. If it'll make kids happier, why not throw a dragon in there too. I would love to see the return of Forestmen, Fright Knights, Black Falcons, and perhaps a more... realistic, older seeming version of Nexo Knights. And maybe a wizard. 

[Poco Lypso]

Tough one! 

If its a story then its gonna be the same 3-6 characters every year in about every set, lol. Not a fan of that but it makes sense ofc.

While opponents (design) can be hit or miss we would get 1 new faction each year, coupled with the same 3-6 protagonist characters.

However, those factions could be like chima or ninjago opponents :(

Lotr style fantasy could have way more success with the kids. Set designs would prolly consist of 1-2 dragons each year.

Oh boy, castle seems doomed.

 

My own idea of a story:

A band of friends 

Each one belongs to a family (baker, miller, noble). So that we could get another mill village raid and civilians and other sets based on their "homes".

One of those friends has a relative who is a da vinci style inventor - no, no mechas! His inventions help the friends to solve problems during the show and would be turned into sets each year.

I would slowly develope the story and lore. Not going all in with like 4 factions at once - kids and adults need time and too much information is never good.

Also, I wouldnt use total war as a setting. Kingdoms at war - thats a bit boring imo.

I would rather make it mysterious - like in the 1st and 2nd season have a "cult" working to obtain a hidden artefact which they wanna use to awaken an ancient evil - like a dark overlord. Which they succeed at the end of season 1 and get defeated by the end if season 2. 

Just some thoughts!

 

[valon]

1 hour ago, DaleDVM said:

I am with MAB and Alexandrina here.  It is about the parts selection for me.  I own all of the the Knights Kingdom II sets.  But I only own one of each from the first year because I am a collector and had to buy them.  I find the jelly bean knights terrible!  Strangely, in the second year of KK II the minifigs and heraldry was pretty awesome, but alas the damage was done and the line came to an end.  IMHO it wasn't the story that killed KK II.  As soon as I saw the Jayko minifig in his baby blue armor, (baby blue?) I didn't even want to know what the story was!  So I think it is vital to have good sets to go along with a gripping story, otherwise it will still fail.  

However, if they are going to do a story driven castle series.  This is what I suggest.  Make the named good guys a series of leaders/heroes.  Make 5 factions.  A male wizard faction.  A female elf leader faction.  A male dwarf leader faction.  A female human hero faction.  A male human hero faction.  Then over time each faction can have some generic unnamed soldiers to expand those kingdoms.  These 5 factions need to ally to defeat a new threat... 

The evil faction should have a leader/warrior and sorcerer/sorceress plus plenty of non human generic soldiers.  This is classic for just about any fantasy franchise (Warhammer, Warcraft, LOTR, etc.)  LEGO doesn't need to pay for a license.  Nor are they violating any.  These are factions that everyone already knows.  They just need to make a few leaders to fill the story in.   

The key for kids is the obvious bad guy factions.  I truly believe this is why fantasy era castle sold so well.  
 

this is a good idea a have said this several times but if people want castle theme worldbuilder is the best way if you do no know worldbuilder is a place were you desgin a theme that lego might release it is ideas but a theme not one thing

[valon]

1 hour ago, Poco Lypso said:

A band of friends 

Each one belongs to a family (baker, miller, noble). So that we could get another mill village raid and civilians and other sets based on their "homes".

One of those friends has a relative who is a da vinci style inventor - no, no mechas! His inventions help the friends to solve problems during the show and would be turned into sets each year.

I would slowly develope the story and lore. Not going all in with like 4 factions at once - kids and adults need time and too much information is never good.

Also, I wouldnt use total war as a setting. Kingdoms at war - thats a bit boring imo.

I would rather make it mysterious - like in the 1st and 2nd season have a "cult" working to obtain a hidden artefact which they wanna use to awaken an ancient evil - like a dark overlord. Which they succeed at the end of season 1 and get defeated by the end if season 2. 

Just some thoughts!

  

playmobile has a series like that called novelmore

[Poco Lypso]

5 minutes ago, valon said:

playmobile has a series like that called novelmore

Oh

Edit: dang - they even have a character called "dario da vinci" 

Lol

Edited March 9, 2021 by Poco Lypso

[Alexandrina]

1 hour ago, Poco Lypso said:

My own idea of a story:

A band of friends 

Each one belongs to a family (baker, miller, noble). So that we could get another mill village raid and civilians and other sets based on their "homes".

One of those friends has a relative who is a da vinci style inventor - no, no mechas! His inventions help the friends to solve problems during the show and would be turned into sets each year.

I would slowly develope the story and lore. Not going all in with like 4 factions at once - kids and adults need time and too much information is never good.

Also, I wouldnt use total war as a setting. Kingdoms at war - thats a bit boring imo.

I would rather make it mysterious - like in the 1st and 2nd season have a "cult" working to obtain a hidden artefact which they wanna use to awaken an ancient evil - like a dark overlord. Which they succeed at the end of season 1 and get defeated by the end if season 2. 

Just some thoughts!

No offence - but I would hate this. The moment you make a series about a band of friends, I find it hard to see how you can keep it medieval and interesting. A Da Vinci style character would set the series too close to the Renaissance for my taste.

[Poco Lypso]

44 minutes ago, Alexandrina said:

No offence - but I would hate this. The moment you make a series about a band of friends, I find it hard to see how you can keep it medieval and interesting. A Da Vinci style character would set the series too close to the Renaissance for my taste.

Well :)

Tbh I dont really see your point. Whats wrong with medieval AND friendship? Medieval is just the setting, you can pretty much do anything. Friendship is a broad term ofc - either way an episodic tv show needs recurring protagonists - and kids can relate to the concept of friendship. And lets not forget: the show/story would be aimed at kids.

 

 

 

[Alexandrina]

7 minutes ago, Poco Lypso said:

Tbh I dont really see your point. Whats wrong with medieval AND friendship?

Nothing, per se. It's just that a lot of the genre conventions of adventuring groups of friends, especially in children's entertainment, don't really seem to fit a medieval setting. 

[Poco Lypso]

7 minutes ago, Alexandrina said:

Nothing, per se. It's just that a lot of the genre conventions of adventuring groups of friends, especially in children's entertainment, don't really seem to fit a medieval setting. 

Hmm... I cant say that I am an expert on the subject matter. But since we are talking about a lego kids show, our viewers will be less critical of the historic context, won't they? The setting is not the main focus, its the heroes. 

 

[Alexandrina]

30 minutes ago, Poco Lypso said:

Hmm... I cant say that I am an expert on the subject matter. But since we are talking about a lego kids show, our viewers will be less critical of the historic context, won't they? The setting is not the main focus, its the heroes. 

 

The viewers might be, but it doesn't mean I'll enjoy it any more. I'm not saying it won't sell - just that it does nothing for me. 

[Poco Lypso]

26 minutes ago, Alexandrina said:

The viewers might be, but it doesn't mean I'll enjoy it any more. I'm not saying it won't sell - just that it does nothing for me. 

I think its generally hard to create a show that would suit both adults and kids, al though not impossible. Which lego tv shows have been enjoying?

[Kit Figsto]

I think the late 80s/90s castle was enough of a mix between established story and ambiguity to allow for sets that had appeal in the models but also in terms of playability.  I'm too young to have grown up with those, but I feel like Classic Space/Castle were both very good at that.  With Castle, you had about 6-7 different factions, some that seemed more clearly "good" (Lion Knights, Royal Knights, etc), some that appeared to be more "bad" (Wolfpack, Fright Knights) and then a bunch that were sort of in the middle (Forestmen, Dragon Knights, etc).  But, you weren't necessarily held to those constraints, you could make the Forestmen the good guys fighting the Lion Knights, or whatever you wanted to do.  That's what I'd like to see in a Castle reboot. 

I know that the 2007 Castle has mixed opinions due to the fact that it had more fantasy elements, but I think it did that fairly well, even if on a smaller scale (Knights, Skeletons, Dwarves, Trolls).  It was a bit more obvious who the "good guys" and "bad guys" were supposed to be, but with additional groups like Dwarves, you could pit them against the Knights or against the Skeletons and Trolls. 

[Alexandrina]

23 minutes ago, Poco Lypso said:

I think its generally hard to create a show that would suit both adults and kids, al though not impossible. Which lego tv shows have been enjoying?

I mean, I've never watched a Lego TV show (bar about five minutes of Monikie Kid, which I couldn't stand) so I don't think I'm even near to the target audience. I would rather Lego tell their story through comics included in the sets than a TV show 

[zoth33]

@Lego David To answer your question as it seems some people have missed the point of your question.  I think if they did a story driven theme along the lines of something like Legend of Zelda would definitely fit in with kids.  To that point stories like the Hobbit which are aimed at kids.  If they were to do something like that I think kids would enjoy the adventure side of those stories and really gravitate to the main characters.  And with stories akin to those you could definitely do several years worth of content.  My 10 year old is reading Wings of Fire and really enjoying it.  You really need something fantastical with kids these days to keep them interested, it can't just be knights against bad knights.  I think you would need dragons, kids love dragons.  You could throw in different races like elves, dwarves, humans, fawns, centaurs, orcs, trolls, goblins, etc. to make things different for kids than just your normal bad guys versus good guys.  You could even try things like vampires, gargoyles, and werewolves for a wave to mix things up.  Even do different demon like baddies like tree demons, Ice demons, fire demons.  The story could evolve each year with a core group of heroes that adds heroes each season and maybe have certain characters arcs develop a story for each season and then after and have it culminate with a couple or more seasons to tie all the stories together.  

[Phyre]

They tried that to an extent with Knights' Kingdom II.  I was a kid (preteen) at the time and I was pretty into it, not as much as I was into BIONICLE, but still, thought it was cool.  I only collected the action figure sets and just bought a couple of the minifig-scale sets.  By the end of the run I had pretty much lost interest and only bought a couple of the action figures from that last year.  Then Fantasy Era came along and I was hooked, that got me into minifig-scale Castle and that is what I have focused a large part of my LEGO collecting on since.  Unfortunately of course, we haven't had a new Castle theme in a long time and only a few Castle compatible sets.

 

Anyway, Fantasy Era helped inspire me to create my own entire world out of Castle themed sets and minifigures for years to come.  I am even working on writing a series of novels now that I am basing on those stories I have created (and continue to create, when I have time) with my LEGO sets (who knows, maybe someday if I am able to publish them and become successful, you will get to read them yourselves!).  But I was also interested as a kid in the storyline of Knights' Kingdom.  I know a lot of people didn't like the colorful knights, and as an adult I can see why, but they were part of what drew me in, as well as the unique action figures that were BIONICLE scale but made out of System pieces.

 

Now, by the time Fantasy Era came out I was already in my teens, and when I was a little kid my primary interest was in stuff like Town/City and Racers (and BIONICLE of course).  But I think a storyline approach would definitely work as it did for Knights' Kingdom (at least for me), as long as they keep the designs of things (especially minifigures) more like classic (and even more modern) Castle designs.  The Collectible Minifigures series has come up with a ton of unique medieval and fantasy character designs, many of which are colorful, but all of which have been much better received that the Knights' Kingdom figs.  So I definitely think it could be done.

 

As for what kind of story or sets I would want to see, I want to see a mix between fantasy and realism.  Just like Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones, arguably the two most popular medieval fantasy stories of all time.  I want to see several factions of knights each with unique traits and architecture.  But I also want to see dragons, and orcs, and undead, and all manner of fantasy creatures get involved in the story as well.  LEGO did BIONICLE and created a massive interconnected universe with tons and tons of characters with detailed backstories.  If they could do that, I don't see why they couldn't do it with a Castle theme.  As you mentioned, they have done something similar with Ninjago.  I followed along with that a little bit in the beginning but lost track.  There's no reason LEGO can't create a sprawling fantasy epic along the lines of LotR or GoT, but for kids.  I think kids would get interested.

 

Either way, I am just dying for a new Castle theme.  I want it to include fantasy elements, basically Fantasy Era 2.0, or perhaps Fantasy Era combined with Kingdoms.

15 minutes ago, zoth33 said:

@Lego David To answer your question as it seems some people have missed the point of your question.  I think if they did a story driven theme along the lines of something like Legend of Zelda would definitely fit in with kids.  To that point stories like the Hobbit which are aimed at kids.  If they were to do something like that I think kids would enjoy the adventure side of those stories and really gravitate to the main characters.  And with stories akin to those you could definitely do several years worth of content.  My 10 year old is reading Wings of Fire and really enjoying it.  You really need something fantastical with kids these days to keep them interested, it can't just be knights against bad knights.  I think you would need dragons, kids love dragons.  You could throw in different races like elves, dwarves, humans, fawns, centaurs, orcs, trolls, goblins, etc. to make things different for kids than just your normal bad guys versus good guys.  You could even try things like vampires, gargoyles, and werewolves for a wave to mix things up.  Even do different demon like baddies like tree demons, Ice demons, fire demons.  The story could evolve each year with a core group of heroes that adds heroes each season and maybe have certain characters arcs develop a story for each season and then after and have it culminate with a couple or more seasons to tie all the stories together.  

^This.  If you think kids would be interested in a theme like this, then it needs to happen lol.  This is exactly the kind of theme that I would love to have.  I would have loved it as a teen, and I would love it now.  This is basically what I was getting at in my post above, but you got to the point much faster lol, and with more detail.  Everything you suggested would be fantastic to see happen.

EDIT: And I definitely want to see the horror stuff incorporated.  Monster Fighters ended too soon and was the last full theme that I really collected, and those sets fit in well with the rest of my Castle stuff (except for the vehicles, which I just display elsewhere).  My main collection is a combination of Castle and horror; the actual start of what became my main LEGO "village" (really now a country full of different kingdoms) was the Studios monster sets from the early 2000s.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Phyre

[MAB]

3 hours ago, zoth33 said:

@Lego David To answer your question as it seems some people have missed the point of your question.  I think if they did a story driven theme along the lines of something like Legend of Zelda would definitely fit in with kids.  To that point stories like the Hobbit which are aimed at kids.  If they were to do something like that I think kids would enjoy the adventure side of those stories and really gravitate to the main characters.  And with stories akin to those you could definitely do several years worth of content.  My 10 year old is reading Wings of Fire and really enjoying it.  You really need something fantastical with kids these days to keep them interested, it can't just be knights against bad knights.  I think you would need dragons, kids love dragons.  You could throw in different races like elves, dwarves, humans, fawns, centaurs, orcs, trolls, goblins, etc. to make things different for kids than just your normal bad guys versus good guys.  You could even try things like vampires, gargoyles, and werewolves for a wave to mix things up.  Even do different demon like baddies like tree demons, Ice demons, fire demons.  The story could evolve each year with a core group of heroes that adds heroes each season and maybe have certain characters arcs develop a story for each season and then after and have it culminate with a couple or more seasons to tie all the stories together.  

In other words, repeat Ninjago with knights instead of ninjas vs every faction that can be thought up. However, it misses out the builds, and builds are important. Ninjago had a lot of vehicles, how would they fit in?

[Alexandrina]

4 hours ago, MAB said:

Ninjago had a lot of vehicles, how would they fit in?

It would be easy to just not do loads of vehicles. A merchant's cart, a King's litter, wagons and the like, plenty of boats (which might even draw in some of the Pirates crowd!) 

Have the story take place at locations, and turn those locations into sets. Travel is going to be devoted to either exposition/character development (boring for sets) or ambushes/conflict (exciting for sets - but the conflict would be the set, so no vehicles necessary). 

[valon]

5 hours ago, MAB said:

In other words, repeat Ninjago with knights instead of ninjas vs every faction that can be thought up. However, it misses out the builds, and builds are important. Ninjago had a lot of vehicles, how would they fit in?

you could have peasant house and small fort with battle between the main character and evil guys instead of a mech and a car, also enlighten did a similair theme with mythical creatures ( as well as stupid cars ) were ninjago would have a mech

[Lego David]

6 hours ago, MAB said:

In other words, repeat Ninjago with knights instead of ninjas vs every faction that can be thought up. However, it misses out the builds, and builds are important. Ninjago had a lot of vehicles, how would they fit in?

Each faction could have various siege engines and war equipment of their own. So instead of vehicles, you get stuff like War Ships, Siege Machines, Carriages, or you could even go as far as having some of the factions ride on elephants or other large "Tank" creatures. There is a tone of potential.