Will a set based on an Existing License ever pass Review on LEGO Ideas

[Sir Gareth]

Are sets based on an existing LEGO license a waste of time? Will a Star Wars or Super Heroes set ever pass review?

[LegoFjotten]

In my opinion, no, a SW or SH set will never pass review on LEGO Ideas.

[Deathleech]

Nor will a Zelda one. I'm anxious to see how the next review phase goes that has yet another Legend of Zelda Ideas set. You would think Lego would be all about getting that license, if at all possible, considering how many sets have made it to review. We are at what, 4 or so now?

[HawkLord]

If Lego already has the license or if some other company has the license, the project will never be approved. Star Wars and Marvel/DC already have licenses with Lego and approve their own sets; they wouldn't need Ideas to come up with concepts for them.

The problem with Zelda is that Nintendo already has a building toy license with Knex for Mario, so I'm doubtful that Lego can get a license from Nintendo for Zelda.

[Lyichir]

I think there's a possibility that a set based on an existing license could pass review—but only if it's substantially different from any previous set in that license (to the point of representing a new product category). For example, a Star Wars project that's just a new ship (regardless of scale or price point) would probably fail—after all, Lego has already produced sets of plenty of Star Wars vehicles, and they already try to keep as many such sets as the market can bear in production at any given point. But a project of, say, life-size lightsaber replicas would be the kind of project that might stand a chance—it'd be completely different from other Star Wars sets on the market, and may be something neither Lego nor Lucasfilm has considered as a Lego Star Wars product in the past. If a project like that were to get 10,000 supporters, I think it would have a much better chance of passing review.

[tafkatb]

For an Ideas proposal based on an existing license to even stand a chance of passing review, it would have to be something so original that TLG never would have considered it otherwise. If someone submits a Star Wars or Super Heroes set (or Disney Princess or Jurassic Park or any number of others for that matter), odds are frankly pretty high that the same idea has already been proposed internally at some point. And if it's already been proposed internally, then either A. they decided against it for some reason, meaning that unless the Ideas proposal brings a radically different twist on it, it will probably be rejected for the same reason, or B. they decided to put it in production, meaning the Ideas proposal will be rejected because it conflicts with something already in the pipeline.

[Naijel]

The Avengers helicarrier made it to review but LEGO were already making a very similar product. The product was not known about when it was submitted to Cuusoo/Ideas. Did TLG see the submission and start to build their own? Was it just a co-incidence? If I had submitted that design I would have felt let down. It may have just been co-incidence but I was really surprised to see LEGO release a product that large that was not from Star Wars. But, these kinds of products are usually in development for more than 1.5 years before they come to market. I think we have to give LEGO the benefit of the doubt.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Naijel

[Robert8]

The Avengers helicarrier made it to review but LEGO were already making a very similar product. The product was not known about when it was submitted to Cuusoo/Ideas. Did TLG see the submission and start to build their own? Was it just a co-incidence? If I had submitted that design I would have felt let down. It may have just been co-incidence but I was really surprised to see LEGO release a product that large that was not from Star Wars. But, these kinds of products are usually in development for more than 1.5 years before they come to market. I think we have to give LEGO the benefit of the doubt.

It has to be a coincidence because the LEGO Ideas project was submitted on May 2014. The LEGO Avengers Helicarrier was released on March 15 but we know it was already finished on November 14:

http://www.thebrickf...rier-confirmed/

There is no way they could design and produce a D2C set between may and november.

----

This, on the other hand....

https://ideas.lego.com/projects/97530

Edited July 29, 2015 by Robert8

[Deathleech]

It has to be a coincidence because the LEGO Ideas project was submitted on May 2014. The LEGO Avengers Helicarrier was released on March 15 but we know it was already finished on November 14:

http://www.thebrickf...rier-confirmed/

There is no way they could design and produce a D2C set between may and november.

----

This, on the other hand....

I'm not even sure why Lego lets Ideas projects based on existing licenses go through. It just seems like it's opening a can of worms. Both of those are excellent examples. I am sure Lego had these sets in production before the Ideas were ever submitted, but to your casual fan who doesn't know the lengthy Lego creation process it could look bad like they are stealing ideas. And for what? In case they get a really good Idea submitted they never thought of? It hasn't happened yet. They should just make a new rule that no Ideas can be made of existing Lego licenses.

[Robert8]

I'm not even sure why Lego lets Ideas projects based on existing licenses go through. It just seems like it's opening a can of worms. Both of those are excellent examples. I am sure Lego had these sets in production before the Ideas were ever submitted, but to your casual fan who doesn't know the lengthy Lego creation process it could look bad like they are stealing ideas. And for what? In case they get a really good Idea submitted they never thought of? It hasn't happened yet. They should just make a new rule that no Ideas can be made of existing Lego licenses.

I don't think they stole the Avengers Helicarrier set. As I said, it's not possible in just 6 months to design that

About the Action Comics #1 set, that's a very particular idea so it's kinda.... weird.

And I agree with you, existing licenses should be banned from LEGO Ideas

[Tariq j]

As Shayd de grai on a very similar thread, they allow this for site trafficking reasons, SW and SH are obviously very popular themes so if someone posts a popular model like the helicarrier or Death Star etc. It generates more viewers as more want to see it. But I agree they should ban having existing licence set ideas that TLG could already do.

I think the big problem with Ideas now is its turning into a "This is what I want" as oppose to "This is what I think is realistic"

[tafkatb]

I don't think they stole the Avengers Helicarrier set. As I said, it's not possible in just 6 months to design that

About the Action Comics #1 set, that's a very particular idea so it's kinda.... weird.

And I agree with you, existing licenses should be banned from LEGO Ideas

It's not exactly a stretch to assume a set based on the first appearance of the most popular superhero of all time had already been considered, especially since that proposal went up on Ideas in March of this year, by which point the SDCC set was already designed and in production.

[Blondie-Wan]

But a project of, say, life-size lightsaber replicas would be the kind of project that might stand a chance—it'd be completely different from other Star Wars sets on the market, and may be something neither Lego nor Lucasfilm has considered as a Lego Star Wars product in the past. If a project like that were to get 10,000 supporters, I think it would have a much better chance of passing review.

As it happens, that very concept did indeed get a CUUSOO / Ideas project, and even got the 10,000 votes and made it to review. I believed it was one of the likelier Star Wars projects, for the same reasons you do, though it was declined.

But again, it may always have been declined for any number of reasons, and while its rejection is further evidence projects based on existing active licenses have a harder time in review, I still don't think it "proves" they absolutely can't happen, no matter what. The fact LEGO does decline many submissions right out of the gate (whether for content / brand fit, license conflicts, whatever) while still allowing projects based on current themes is stronger evidence that they are at least theoretically possible; they're just less likely.

It should also be noted many / most of the Star Wars, Middle-Earth, Marvel, DC, etc. projects that have made it to review and been declined have had other clear strikes against them that were unrelated to being from existing licenses. For one thing, most of them have been clearly far too large and expensive; several of them were for projects that would dwarf even the D2C Helicarrier and Millennium Falcon sets they have released, while others would be right in that $150-$300 range. Projects that size have an uphill battle whether they're based on any licensed property at all, never mind one LEGO already has.

I am fully aware Star Wars projects are not likely to pass, but I am planning on submitting a few anyway, as I sincerely believe there's still a possibility of one getting through, and I have some ideas people haven't tried before for things that are beyond what LEGO and LFL normally release, yet which are still feasible (e.g., not 10,000-piece Sandcrawlers or buckets of a hundred minifigures).

And if it's already been proposed internally, then either A. they decided against it for some reason, meaning that unless the Ideas proposal brings a radically different twist on it, it will probably be rejected for the same reason, or B. they decided to put it in production, meaning the Ideas proposal will be rejected because it conflicts with something already in the pipeline.

Or C., there's simply a timing issue. As has often been noted, LEGO's production capabilities are impressive but not infinite, and they have to make decisions about how to best allocate their resources. Sometimes that might mean declining a perfectly good Idea simply because there are a couple of even better ones, and they can't do all of them and still make all their regular stuff on top of that. I think something like the Star Wars lightsabers project might have had a better shot if it hadn't been in a batch that also had WALL*E and was also between other batches with other strong contenders.

But I agree they should ban having existing licence set ideas that TLG could already do.

Why?

Edited July 29, 2015 by Blondie-Wan

[Tariq j]

As it happens, that very concept did indeed get a CUUSOO / Ideas project, and even got the 10,000 votes and made it to review. I believed it was one of the likelier Star Wars projects, for the same reasons you do, though it was declined.

But again, it may always have been declined for any number of reasons, and while its rejection is further evidence projects based on existing active licenses have a harder time in review, I still don't think it "proves" they absolutely can't happen, no matter what. The fact LEGO does decline many submissions right out of the gate (whether for content / brand fit, license conflicts, whatever) while still allowing projects based on current themes is stronger evidence that they are at least theoretically possible; they're just less likely.

It should also be noted many / most of the Star Wars, Middle-Earth, Marvel, DC, etc. projects that have made it to review and been declined have had other clear strikes against them that were unrelated to being from existing licenses. For one thing, most of them have been clearly far too large and expensive; several of them were for projects that would dwarf even the D2C Helicarrier and Millennium Falcon sets they have released, while others would be right in that $150-$300 range. Projects that size have an uphill battle whether they're based on any licensed property at all, never mind one LEGO already has.

I am fully aware Star Wars projects are not likely to pass, but I am planning on submitting a few anyway, as I sincerely believe there's still a possibility of one getting through, and I have some ideas people haven't tried before for things that are beyond what LEGO and LFL normally release, yet which are still feasible (e.g., not 10,000-piece Sandcrawlers or buckets of a hundred minifigures).

Or C., there's simply a timing issue. As has often been noted, LEGO's production capabilities are impressive but not infinite, and they have to make decisions about how to best allocate their resources. Sometimes that might mean declining a perfectly good Idea simply because there are a couple of even better ones, and they can't do all of them and still make all their regular stuff on top of that. I think something like the Star Wars lightsabers project might have had a better shot if it hadn't been in a batch that also had WALL*E and was also between other batches with other strong contenders.

Why?

Well I'm sorry if I offended you but I've always questioned as to whether a set based on an existing licence can become an actual set from Ideas, Lego have the capability to do almost any set they want from an existing line, and whilst a set idea may inspire them, will they approve it? Don't get me wrong, there are some fantastic ideas on there however all of this set ideas could be done by Lego themselves as part of the regular wave.

[Deathleech]

I don't think they stole the Avengers Helicarrier set. As I said, it's not possible in just 6 months to design that

I know, I was agreeing with you. The Lego production process takes a few years from concept idea to finished project hitting shelves so there is no way they stole the Helicarrier idea and got a massive, $350 dollar set out all in six months. Heck, in six months they probably already had their own Helicarrier in production at their factories, or pretty close to it.

As Shayd de grai on a very similar thread, they allow this for site trafficking reasons, SW and SH are obviously very popular themes so if someone posts a popular model like the helicarrier or Death Star etc. It generates more viewers as more want to see it.

I suppose, but then how disappointed are those fans going to be when the same licensed projects make it to review only to fail time and time again?

Why?

I am interested to see if Lego will ever release an Ideas set that is based on an existing license they have OR if they will release a set that is over $100. So far we have had Cussoo and now Ideas for a few years and neither have ever passed review despite dozens upon dozens of projects making it. If Lego has no intention of ever making these kinds of sets, or the chance is so slim they probably never will get made, why let fans get their hopes up when a project reaches 10,000 supporters?

Edited July 29, 2015 by Deathleech

[Blondie-Wan]

Well I'm sorry if I offended you but I've always questioned as to whether a set based on an existing licence can become an actual set from Ideas, Lego have the capability to do almost any set they want from an existing line, and whilst a set idea may inspire them, will they approve it? Don't get me wrong, there are some fantastic ideas on there however all of this set ideas could be done by Lego themselves as part of the regular wave.

But by that logic, they should ban all submissions and not have the Ideas program at all, since they can already do any set they can already do.

They do already automatically decline certain submissions, like ones based on R-rated movies, toy lines from other companies, and so on. That gives us a baseline of stuff they won't do, which establishes that all the other stuff is stuff they don't necessarily know they can't do. In some cases, they accepted at least one submission based around something they now no longer accept, showing how once they decide a whole area is out of bounds for them, they can stop accepting something they know up front they won't do even if they've accepted it before. Combined, these two facts tell us that they most likely will start automatically declining something once they know for sure they won't do it. As they've already had several Star Wars, Middle-Earth, DC, etc. projects enter review, if there's absolutely no way they'll do one they should have clearly established it by now. The fact that they do continue to accept submissions therefore suggests that it is possible to get an Ideas set based on an existing licensed theme. Just because this project or that project was declined doesn't necessarily mean none will ever pass. It just means nobody has gotten one through yet.

[ShaydDeGrai]

(snip) I've always questioned as to whether a set based on an existing licence can become an actual set from Ideas, Lego have the capability to do almost any set they want from an existing line, and whilst a set idea may inspire them, will they approve it? Don't get me wrong, there are some fantastic ideas on there however all of this set ideas could be done by Lego themselves as part of the regular wave.

US Criminal Law has the concept of "Inevitable Discovery" and, I suspect, the feudal nature of TLG's design teams may work on a similar basis.

ASIDE FOR THOSE WHO WONDER:

The constitution of the US has laws preventing illegal search and seizure and protecting the "right to remain silent" if, through police misconduct or even simple human error, a defendant's rights were violated (say, they were interrogate before being told that they had the right to a lawyer or someone searched their apartment without a warrant) any evidence discovered becomes inadmissible in court as "fruit of the poisonous tree." Inevitable Discovery, however, creates an exemption for this if the evidence found is something that _clearly_ would have been found anyway because the circumstances were already in place to discover it at the time the infraction occurred. For example, if the police pull-over someone wanted for murder; they arrest him and impound his car, but then an overzealous cop takes the man aside and scares him into confessing that that he did it and the body in in the trunk of the car - the fact that he confessed and that he told them where to find the body is inadmissible, but the body itself and autopsy findings could still be valid because the cops already had the car and once it started to smell bad they'd have probable cause to open the trunk even if they didn't get a search warrant.

END ASIDE

What does any of this have to do with Lego Ideas and licensed themes?

Well, from a legal perspective, TLG can safely say that by having a dedicated Star Wars (or Heroes, or whatever) design team in place and having a licensed IP of prior art to draw upon, ANY Ideas project related to this material is something that TLG _could have_ eventually come up with on their own - it's discovery was inevitable and therefore it should fall to the theme team to produce a set of their own design under the umbrella of existing contracts with the IP holders. Whether the concept for a set came from an Ideas proposal, a MOC posting on Flickr or a random Tweet somewhere in cyberspace, since the concept was inspired by a (finite) IP TLG was already mining for kit ideas, the Star Wars Line design team can claim inevitable discovery for just about anything that is recognizably Star Wars related. If the Ideas team needs to get the Star Wars team to sign off on letting a third party get paid to make them look bad (after all, these people are on salary to think this stuff up, so why didn't they think of it first), I just don't see that happening very often, if at all.

Obviously licensed sets can get (and have successfully gotten) made, but we've never seen one for an existing IP where TLG already had a standing design group. And let's face it, Ideas is a novelty gimmick, a small sideline business unit compared to the juggernaut of Lego Star Wars. I find it really hard to envision the day when a fan proposed, 10,000 unit production run of a Star Wars property is going to ship under an Ideas banner - and I find it very easy to imagine a similar model shipping under the licensed theme banner sooner or later with no acknowledgement that there had ever been a prior Ideas project - the argument for inevitable discovery is too easy to make.

It would be different if TLG were actually licensing fan MOCs directly (brick for brick), but Ideas projects are just considered prototypes to show a concept (not the execution of that concept). TLG redesigns the actual models, owns the execution, and rewards Ideas submitters a small commission for their "suggestions". Outside of an advertising or PR stunt, paying someone to suggest something you were considering doing anyway doesn't make a lot of sense.

Claiming "originality of concept" against an existing body of prior art while remaining within the canon of that IP is a tough sell. Whether TLG disallows designs based on existing licensed IP or not, I think our energy would be better spent coming up with truly unique and original proposals - rejecting the next Jedi Temple or life-sized lightsaber is just to easy compared to the amount of work _we_ have to do to get the project to 10K support in the first place.

Edited July 30, 2015 by ShaydDeGrai

[Blondie-Wan]

If Lego has no intention of ever making these kinds of sets, or the chance is so slim they probably never will get made, why let fans get their hopes up when a project reaches 10,000 supporters?

Because there may possibly come a day when conditions are perfect and they can release such a set, and there's no reason for them to deny themselves that opportunity should it ever arise.

[HawkLord]

A lot of it could also be Lego building ammo to get certain licenses. At the moment, Lego doesn't have Nintendo and can't make Zelda. But if they can prove to Nintendo that they have a reasonable enough consumer base that's interest they might be able to convince Lego that when the Knex license is up Nintendo should shift it to Lego.

Ideas is low cost market research.

[Deathleech]

Because there may possibly come a day when conditions are perfect and they can release such a set, and there's no reason for them to deny themselves that opportunity should it ever arise.

I know the possibility is there, but it doesn't seem like the pay off is. So they get thousands upon thousands of people excited for a set that reached 10,000 supporters only to have it never pass review because Lego already has the license and is making sets for it? Plus, as ShaydDeGrai points out, Lego really has no reason to ever produce an Ideas set from a pre-existing license theme they already have. It would just cut into their profits having to pay the Ideas creator a small portion of the revenue and they have the license regardless of the Ideas project. I'm sure most of the Ideas have been pitched in Lego meetings anyways. They have employees who's full time job is to work with one theme and sit around and create new sets and ideas for it all day.

[anothergol]

Question is, is Lego Ideas really about the ideas, or the models?

I see people voting more for ideas, which is sad because it lead to ugly things like the BTTF DeLorean. I'm all for the IDEA of a BTTF DeLorean, but I didn't buy it because there are much (much!) better other MOCS out there. Worse, after it passed on Lego Ideas, Lego didn't improve it, it made it even worse.

What's SW-based that hasn't passed on Lego Ideas btw? Sure, the AT-AT, but I can think of many other reasons for Lego not to produce it. It would have been Lego's largest release (I think?), that alone makes you think twice. Could also be a matter of children safety issues (a 8kg toy on legs). I'd have bought it, though.

People now seem to be voting for things that are hardly more than minifig packs (why not..). But I wish there were more like the exo-suit. That was NOT an idea. Had it been a crap robot made by a child, no one would have voted, no one would have bought. The model alone sold itself. (and yes, Lego messed with it a lot, but this time they improved it, and it's also understandable that a model full of retired pieces and illegal techniques can't pass untouched)

I find it interesting how it's licenses that Lego didn't have, that pass. At first, I thought the total opposite would happen. Not only I was surprised that Lego wasn't scared by copyright infrigement when "ideas" based on licenses kept stacking, I was assuming that Lego would never bother acquiring licenses for them (I mean, that's heavy work too), and that things based on what Lego already owned, would have more chances.

Edited August 2, 2015 by anothergol

[Deathleech]

What's SW-based that hasn't passed on Lego Ideas btw?

There haven't been a ton lately, but there was the AT-At you spoke of, the lightsaber hilts, the Invisible Hand ship, the Sandcrawler, and the bucket of 100 minifigures (99 Stormtroopers and 1 Darth Vader). I am sure I am missing some but those are all the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

[anothergol]

There haven't been a ton lately, but there was the AT-At you spoke of, the lightsaber hilts, the Invisible Hand ship, the Sandcrawler, and the bucket of 100 minifigures (99 Stormtroopers and 1 Darth Vader). I am sure I am missing some but those are all the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

Well, the Sandcrawler (which was certainly nice) & Invisible hand suffered from the same oversize problem as the AT-AT, and I can understand why Lego wouldn't bother trying to sell packs of the 100 same minifigures (& that's not even an "idea", nor a concept IMHO).

Yeah the hilts, they could have done that, I imagine.

There isn't much that's worth it, SW-related.

The UCS Landspeeder is great & on its way to gather 10k. I can imagine it passing, but it seems to be high in the piece count again.

The probe droid probably won't be voted, but it's nice, and something Lego never did (I think?)

The Venator thing, looks great, but too gigantic again, and maybe not iconic enough.

The posable AT-ST, would be a shame if it didn't happen, because Lego never made a good version of it. And I plan to put my own on Lego ideas as well, when it's finished.

(damn, I just saw that the good-looking DeLorean had gathered 10k as well)

Edited August 4, 2015 by anothergol

[Dennan]

Isn't the Wall-E the example that submitted projects, where LEGO already have a license for, can get thru the selecting process?

The Disney license is not only related to princess, see Cars, Toy Story, Pirates of the Caribbean and some others.

Or could this be because the designer is Disney related?

[wesker]

I don't think its a waste of time. Even if an idea has no chance of passing review, its still a good way to show Lego what consumers would like to see from an existing licensed line.

Although I do think people should stop putting up projects that are ridiculously oversized and aim for something a little more realistic as a Lego product.