9v motors (should lego make them again?)

[Boxerlego]

Warning this is going to be vague, but the PF system can easily work with voltages above 9 volts, I've already proven this in several ways already. I dont recommend connecting voltage exceeding more the 9 volts to the PF receiver that will certainly destroy but there are methods to work around this and work with any amount of voltage you desire. The PF system is ripe for improvements. Nothing wrong with IR communication, in fact LEGO is doing them the best longterm favor for by using the IR tech with their PF system for future use if you want to build bigger and larger. I'm just going to say that Sbrick is a great right now option if you want a good experience with your RC models but the PF system will be a the main stay for a long time to come. Sorry 9v system those days are over, Welcome to 2014 about to be 2015 in 37-38 days depending on what time zone your in.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Boxerlego

[bonox]

I was unbelievably disappointed at how slow and weak my 8043 excavator was, and I'm tired of that.

I'm curious about people's attitude to lego RC stuff - in my mind, plastic friction locking modular parts, plastic in plastic bearings, and low modulus plastic shafts do not make for high performance. There is special single purpose RC equipment for that kind of thing - things that because of their specialised nature mean you can pretty much do only one thing with it. This is in contrast to a lego system that can be an excavator one day, a GBC the next and a house with motorised skylight the one after that.

Am I weird for acknowledging and working within the limitations of the gear? Or is because i'm a mechanical engineer that I have more sympathy for the gear than most?

I'm sure TLG will shout me down if i'm wrong about this, but the concept of the 8043 was to demonstrate a principle that may have also been fun to play with. It would also teach you about the importance of testing during assembly or things would bind and run slowly. What i'm sure it was never intended to do was dig rocks out of the back yard. It's one of the better examples why brute force is not a good solution to complex poorly assembled geartrains.

There are improvements you can make to the design to overcome limitations like this - see any number of MOC's performing admirably (eg http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=101526), however it's not a tool for making structural and mechanical equipment.

The buggy motors are also a bit different in the lineup by having a tendancy to be direct drive to a wheel, but even they don't come with long life, high load bearings in them!

[9v system]

so back on the main topic do you think sbricks should make some of the old 9v motors?

[andythenorth]

so back on the main topic do you think sbricks should make some of the old 9v motors?

Is there a good reason to? I am confused about the benefit of this.

Micro-motor, I can see the benefit, but that's about form factor, not the electrical system.

Edited November 25, 2014 by andythenorth

[9v system]

Is there a good reason to? I am confused about the benefit of this.

Micro-motor, I can see the benefit, but that's about form factor, not the electrical system.

I think we should have another micromotor

[Heppeng]

but the PF system can easily work with voltages above 9 volts

Well the XL motor does not seem to like higher voltages much at all. My Emerald Night was converted to pick up from 12V rails, and used to haul four fairly heavy coaches. Of course I did not use full voltage, but it runs somewhat slowly on 9V so it is extremely difficult to resist the temptation to give it a bit more. After the second motor failed due to commutator problems, (lots of nice blue flashes inside once it could be persuaded to turn) I decided to give the old black 12V technic motor a go, which I had not tried previously because I did not think it would be powerful enough. When geared down sufficiently it just about did, but it was running flat out at about the same speed as the XL on 9V. I suspect that whilst it is old and running at its limit it will still last longer than the PF motor did!

[1974]

Seriously what do you use them for? I can't think of any technic model where they would have been critical.

Well, both the 8868 and the 8480 used them

The last time I used one in a Technic MOC was in my motorised (I put in a pneumatic compressor amongst other things) version of the 8851 to get the cables to sit just right for the motor and the blinking light on top of the cabin. So yes, they're highly usefull for me

TLG are incredibly conservative when they innovate

So true

[1974]

I'm curious about people's attitude to lego RC stuff - in my mind, plastic friction locking modular parts, plastic in plastic bearings, and low modulus plastic shafts do not make for high performance. There is special single purpose RC equipment for that kind of thing - things that because of their specialised nature mean you can pretty much do only one thing with it. This is in contrast to a lego system that can be an excavator one day, a GBC the next and a house with motorised skylight the one after that.

Am I weird for acknowledging and working within the limitations of the gear? Or is because i'm a mechanical engineer that I have more sympathy for the gear than most?

I'm sure TLG will shout me down if i'm wrong about this, but the concept of the 8043 was to demonstrate a principle that may have also been fun to play with. It would also teach you about the importance of testing during assembly or things would bind and run slowly. What i'm sure it was never intended to do was dig rocks out of the back yard. It's one of the better examples why brute force is not a good solution to complex poorly assembled geartrains.

There are improvements you can make to the design to overcome limitations like this - see any number of MOC's performing admirably (eg http://www.eurobrick...howtopic=101526), however it's not a tool for making structural and mechanical equipment.

The buggy motors are also a bit different in the lineup by having a tendancy to be direct drive to a wheel, but even they don't come with long life, high load bearings in them!

I agree about all that. I really don't understand why some MOC'ers are so hung up upon hotrodding LEGO with high performance motors/batteries. I mean, putting in a big block V8 in a Fiat 500 is ridiculous, no?

Atempting to make LEGO fly even more so

Proper RC is in fact just as buildable as LEGO, you can get hundreds of different shock absorbers, tires, chassis and very powerfull motors all for the price of a Technic flagship

I do understand that why people would like something else than IR, it's a very crappy system .. limited range and prone to get disturbed under a lot of (outdoo) light. But I guess it's TLG's way to tell us not to use LEGO outdoors

[aol000xw]

Between Lego RC performance range and proper RC performance range there is an incredibly wide gap, and certainly it may not make much sense to use proper RC stuff with Lego parts although that is some people's choice and personally I like to learn form their experiences.

However for everyone else even if there is no need to go all the way to the proper RC side, 5292 is evidence enough that we could make good use of something a bit beefier than M/L/XL motors.

[Boxerlego]

Well the XL motor does not seem to like higher voltages much at all. My Emerald Night was converted to pick up from 12V rails, and used to haul four fairly heavy coaches. Of course I did not use full voltage, but it runs somewhat slowly on 9V so it is extremely difficult to resist the temptation to give it a bit more. After the second motor failed due to commutator problems, (lots of nice blue flashes inside once it could be persuaded to turn) I decided to give the old black 12V technic motor a go, which I had not tried previously because I did not think it would be powerful enough. When geared down sufficiently it just about did, but it was running flat out at about the same speed as the XL on 9V. I suspect that whilst it is old and running at its limit it will still last longer than the PF motor did!

Yea, what Im trying to convey in that quote is that If you can work in the 9v PF system limitation you still can work with any voltage you desire regarding the receiver specifically. Motors on the other hand is a different matter and where you need the proper motor for the desired application and you said it when you mention that the proper 12v train motor was able to last longer the the PF did. I suspect that the 12v train motor has carbon brush to enable the train handle the constan I know the commutator on the XL motor is of a cat whisker style and I see reason here why it didn't last as long as a carbon brush would as the train motors. I have a maintenance manual for Diesel electric train motor and generator that is from 1948 and goes in depth on the maintenance of carbon brush designed motors.

Between Lego RC performance range and proper RC performance range there is an incredibly wide gap, and certainly it may not make much sense to use proper RC stuff with Lego parts although that is some people's choice and personally I like to learn form their experiences.

However for everyone else even if there is no need to go all the way to the proper RC side, 5292 is evidence enough that we could make good use of something a bit beefier than M/L/XL motors.

I like this post. I've owned a RC buggy the legendary 1984 grasshopper. Sadly I don't have it anymore but the performance in that was awesome. From my experience in using 18v motors in driving lego the wear and tear on can be ridiculous in areas, I've actually friction welded a lego axle to another lego part (think god both parts was black) because the torque and friction was huge. I had to literately break the axle out of the friction weld and it did leave it marks, there is no picture of the part the axle was stuck in but I have one of the axle it happen to.

Click to enlarge image. can you spot the axle in the picture.

I really don't understand why some MOC'ers are so hung up upon hotrodding LEGO with high performance motors/batteries. I mean, putting in a big block V8 in a Fiat 500 is ridiculous, no?

Its an americano thing. A V8 engines is like a blank canvas and some of the most incredible vehicles ever to be made around this engine and also be able to demonstrate the raw power of this engine are called monster trucks. Monster trucks are heavily modified truck so it only far to say that a true LEGO monster truck must be of the same modified nature. Can you understand this 1974. My reasons to improve the performance of the was to drive to those power puller tires. But in reality my intentions is to learn and how to drive large size motors because I need to know how this works because its going to impact the we drive when hybrid transmission are a common component and motor drive systems are able to kick in and run the vehicle with the engine. I hope this helps.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Boxerlego

[1974]

I have a Grasshopper (and many other Tamiya RCs) and it does most definitely not have awesome performance, in fact it's probably one of the worst Tamiyas. Sure is a lot of fun to drive though

I do understand what a V8 is, do you know what a Fiat 500 is? What this has to with Monster Trucks, beats me

If you want to learn about 'large size' motors you should have picked another medium than LEGO, proper RC would be my choice

[andythenorth]

Way off topic, but the (real-life) monster trucks I've seen use heavy-duty axles, diffs, props, hubs, swingarms, shocks, clutches etc, either custom-made, or from severe-duty trucks and heavy equipment. They don't just stick a V8 into a mass-production vehicle.

The point being that hopping up Lego with excessive power just reveals problems,

- high-torque reveals the weaknesses of ABS parts (even a single XL motor will split gears and twist axles easily)

- high-speed reveals the problems of a using low-melting point parts in a high-friction, unlubricated, no-bearings environment

- high torque and high shock loadings show the limits of pins, axles and studs to keep parts together

- high torque shows how poorly beams and liftarms resist bending moments, causing gear trains etc to come unmeshed

Anyway, just my 2p

Edited November 25, 2014 by andythenorth

[9v system]

This is also why I stick to old 9v

[bonox]

This is also why I stick to old 9v

really? You've still not addressed the first question I put to you on post #4 - what is it that you think is so bad about the new gear that the old stuff should be brought back? The best you've come up with is longer wires (which is something you can do with PF either by chaining cables or making your own and some different form factors. The form factors have nothing to do with being "the old 9V system"; it's merely a desire to see a 2x2xsomething brick sized PF motor.

Your desire to stick with the old 9V stuff because it's more reliable doesn't really hold much weight when you consider all the old 9V failures the rest of us have had, and how hard people are driving the newer PF stuff. Sure, the stuff fails, but by golly, it's a toy with movement, not a toy defined solely by its movement, or a 'run-it-around-the-clock- GBC demonstrator.

Also, saying that you stick to old 9V stuff to address all the issues I and andythenorth listed above about the sillyness of expecting high performance from plastic on plastic parts gives me the impression that you really haven't nailed down how these things work and what you actually want to achieve. An axle or gear doesn't actually know whether it's being driven by an old motor or a new one. Most of us treated the old stuff the same as the new anyway in terms of final operating speeds - the PF motors just do some of the gearing down inside the motor casing so we don't have to do endless belt drive reductions like at the head of the 8480.

Perhaps a bit like the old guys saying that points ignition on their bike/car was much better than the new electronic stuff and arguing all sorts of stuff about it, when what they actually wanted was the enjoyment of spending time fiddling and adjusting the old stuff rather than acknowleding that the improvement in performance, cost and reliability of the new meant they no longer had to spend time in the shed tinkering with it on wet days. At the end of the day, the points ignition achieved the same results as the CDI (at least for purposes of this discussion!).

Edited November 25, 2014 by bonox

[9v system]

what I say is my opinion why do u always criticise what I say this is my topic and I was just asking on peoples thoughts on weather lego should make some of the 9v motors again or fix ones like the red micro motor which is prone to dying a lot.

[andythenorth]

What we all say is our opinion If you're not prepared to have an opinion challenged then the internet is the wrong place for you.

I don't think the 'criticism' from Bonox is intended as criticism, it's curiosity about why you want 9V back.

Also lots of people here don't have English as first language, and lots of people are technically-minded and just want to understand the reasons for something. That can sometimes cause discussions which seem abrupt or rude or confusing.

So anyway what are the reasons why you want 9V back?

Edited November 26, 2014 by andythenorth

[9v system]

Well I want the 9v system back because there was more things to choose from and they were all compatible with the same system, the motors are very reliable in terms of the ones that I have even if Lego made the mini motor again I would be happy because it is the best motor for any task

I hope you all understand now why I want to go back

[andythenorth]

Did you know that PF and 9V are (mostly) compatible?

One end of the PF extension cable has 9V studs under the connector plate. This means PF battery boxes and IR receivers can power 9V components.

When I tried, I couldn't get a 9V battery box to power a PF receiver though.

[Jim]

what I say is my opinion why do u always criticise what I say this is my topic and I was just asking on peoples thoughts on weather lego should make some of the 9v motors again or fix ones like the red micro motor which is prone to dying a lot.

You ask for people's opinions, so you get....people's opinions. That's what this forum is all about. Please remember that.

[Sariel]

I want the 9v system back because there was more things to choose from and they were all compatible with the same system, the motors are very reliable

You must be talking of some other 9V system, then. I grew up in the 90's, Lego 9V system was all I could play with as a kid, and I remember it a bit differently:

- motors were hard to come by at all, there were basically like 3 kinds of them and they didn't differ much from one another. None of them seemed designed specifically for some clear purpose.

- the performance of most motors was very bad, some had no internal gearing at all

- there was no reliable way to connect the motors to a Technic structure (studs only) and most motors had 1L axle as output

- the famous Micromotor was so prone to failures that it's a miracle to get one in good working condition today

- absolutely no remote control. Running after your MOCs at all times, hoping the wire won't get damaged.

- the wires were quite easily damaged. I have a ton of 9V stuff and PF stuff. I have never damaged any PF wire, while roughly half of my 9V wires have serious problems.

Today's PF system is far from perfect, but honestly, I would sell my kidney if it could get me one when I was a kid.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Sariel

[andythenorth]

- the performance of most motors was very bad, some had no internal gearing at all

And you can stall them trivially, and afaict, there is no overload protection. Bye bye motor.

there was no reliable way to connect the motors to a Technic structure (studs only) and most motors had 1L axle as output

Which means spur gears can drift under load (the axle deforms or the motor rocks), with no way to add beams or liftarms as bracing.

Also, it was pretty common to use the motor to try...non Lego stuff, like drilling into wood. So it was pretty common to own a motor with the axle cross worn down.

the wires were quite easily damaged. I have a ton of 9V stuff and PF stuff. I have never damaged any PF wire, while roughly half of my 9V wires have serious problems.

+1. Better or worse than the 4.5v system with the metal pins and the screw-down connectors for the wire?

[aol000xw]

4.5v system was very bad, I still have a motor, but no cables and probably not battery box, but I am pretty sure the motor still works, alternatively it can be used as blunt weapon.

9v wires are rubbish.

[Blakbird]

In my opinion, the PF system is an improvement over the old 9V in virtually every measurable way. There is a wider variety of motors available, the motors are more powerful, more reliable, and even cheaper. The only things I miss about the old system are the mini motor and the smaller form factor for the wires. Those 4 conductor wires are unnecessary for the motors anyway, and take up a lot of space. I wish they used a 2 conductor version (with the same connector) for motors. I also really liked the old ungeared 9V motor because it ran so fast which allowed some special uses and also made you think more about how to gear it down for other uses (like 8480).

And you can stall them trivially, and afaict, there is no overload protection. Bye bye motor.

I've never noticed any problem with stalling that motor. I think you could stall it indefinitely without damaging anything.

[andythenorth]

I've never noticed any problem with stalling that motor. I think you could stall it indefinitely without damaging anything.

Never noticed them weakening? I think sufficient excessive heating damages the coils in the armature windings, causing weakened fields. Definitely did this to at least one motor when I was a kid. Will say btw that they were often plugged into (6v-12v output) mains power supplies (either a lab supply, or computer interface board).

I had a quick google to see if I was smoking crack: http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/104719/will-running-a-dc-motor-below-stall-current-damage-it

Haven't noticed this with PF, I assume because stalling the motor draws excess current from the battery box and the overload protection kicks in. Dunno if the motor itself has current protection though.

[Blakbird]

Never noticed them weakening? I think sufficient excessive heating damages the coils in the armature windings, causing weakened fields. Definitely did this to at least one motor when I was a kid. Will say btw that they were often plugged into (6v-12v output) mains power supplies (either a lab supply, or computer interface board).

Oh, I absolutely agree that stalling DC motors in general causing heating and reduced life. I've smoked plenty of R/C motors this way. However with the 9V LEGO motors there doesn't ever seem to be enough current or heat to be noticeable.