Dr. Bloodbrick's Asylum - The Conclusion

[Hinckley]

5 independents? + 5 Sinister?

I'm sorry, we were up against way too much. I'm aware this is sour grapes and it's coming from somebody who just lost...hard. But I'll continue anyway : It was basically 10 (later 11) vs. 20. We didn't stand a chance. There are 5 people with an advantage over us and 5 Independents who could choose to side with the Sinister, two of which have night actions and two that can kill. Add that to the Sinister killer and they can just pick us off and confuse us. Randomness is dangerous for town because we need solid leads to work off of. It's all we get. I mean, Scouts got a clue on how to recruit better? Too much randomness and the town gets nothing. How many days does it take for us to test why or how our actions are working? And the Sinister had a lot of night activity. We're testing Petey and he dies before we can get anything conclusive. I didn't use my night action until the very end. 5 independents were skewing our results. Not Insane? Not Sinister? Independent? Made no sense at all. That's what was so frustrating is we never had a solid lead until I lied about my night action. We got the clues from Henry and could finally start putting things together, but it was while we were being murdered in our sleep on the last night. 5 independents could do whatever they want, they're not exactly going to join us in looking for Sinister. You gave a very complicated role of Usurper to someone who had never played before and sent us chasing our tails. The town had a very very slim chance of winning this. While something random would've been fun in an insane asylum, there was so much randomness, we would've needed three more days and two more night actions to even begin to compete with what we were up against. The advantage scum have in a basic game is huge. They know everything. Give them a framer, a recruiting power and throw in a bunch of random independents and the town will never wrap their mind around it in time.

I know I need my diaper changed in ranting this way, but there you have it. That's my opinion.

[Zepher]

I have to say, I really enjoyed the game a lot. When I have less school work, tomorrow, I'll go more in depth, but it was a ton oif fun and I at least knew to suspect Sal from a very early point!

[def]

5 independents? + 5 Sinister?

I'm sorry, we were up against way too much. I'm aware this is sour grapes and it's coming from somebody who just lost...hard. But I'll continue anyway : It was basically 10 (later 11) vs. 20. We didn't stand a chance. There are 5 people with an advantage over us and 5 Independents who could choose to side with the Sinister, two of which have night actions and two that can kill. Add that to the Sinister killer and they can just pick us off and confuse us. Randomness is dangerous for town because we need solid leads to work off of. It's all we get. I mean, Scouts got a clue on how to recruit better? Too much randomness and the town gets nothing. How many days does it take for us to test why or how our actions are working? And the Sinister had a lot of night activity. We're testing Petey and he dies before we can get anything conclusive. I didn't use my night action until the very end. 5 independents were skewing our results. Not Insane? Not Sinister? Independent? Made no sense at all. That's what was so frustrating is we never had a solid lead until I lied about my night action. We got the clues from Henry and could finally start putting things together, but it was while we were being murdered in our sleep on the last night. 5 independents could do whatever they want, they're not exactly going to join us in looking for Sinister. You gave a very complicated role of Usurper to someone who had never played before and sent us chasing our tails. The town had a very very slim chance of winning this. While something random would've been fun in an insane asylum, there was so much randomness, we would've needed three more days and two more night actions to even begin to compete with what we were up against. The advantage scum have in a basic game is huge. They know everything. Give them a framer, a recruiting power and throw in a bunch of random independents and the town will never wrap their mind around it in time.

I know I need my diaper changed in ranting this way, but there you have it. That's my opinion.

Technically, four independents. The ursurper was going to simply replace a player, for either side, and didn't affect numbers at all. Only Sandy could kill, and she wasn't required to kill each night, as in many games. Of those four, half were dead by the third day and really didn't play into the game at all, so I don't see things being unbalanced.

All roles were handed out randomly, except Shadows', since he was aware there was a whisperer role and would know not to listen to it. All other roles were given by luck of the draw.

I really see the game boil down to a few mistakes, which I think I wrote about. Not catching Stash as the insane cop is the biggest, and led to Dragonator being trusted until the the end.

Think about some of the roles and how they were played. Whitefang had a poor game due to real life issues, but if he had been in your inner circle, he would have been invaluable. The Penguin played somewhat of a suicidal game, but if he had been in your inner circle, he could have taken out scum during a night kill. There was a lot of luck, and town had some good abilities. Town was simply unlucky from the start.

I'd really like to hear from the scum team as to whether they felt they had an 'easy' game, since a few town thought they were up against too much.

[def]

Also, Scouts hint didn't give much away. He asked,

"Can those who walk the halls at night be turned? "

And his answer was,

"Well, let me put it this way: your odds are a lot better with the folks that never leave their bed."

So, he asked a question in a way that it seemed he knew the answer, and the answer somewhat confirmed his thought. No better or worse than "in the hairless room," which narrowed down the players (and you knew Arjay was guilty).

A better question is why Scouts and Rufus were given an opportunity to ask questions in the late game

About the investigator results, such as Sinister or not Sinister, and Insane or not Insane:

from the mafia wiki page:

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Cop

The wording of the Cop's PM figured strongly when balancing a game. If a Cop only learns if their target is MAFIA or NOT MAFIA, then third party groups like cults, survivors, and serial killers will effectively by investigation immune. But if a cop learns if their target is TOWN or NOT TOWN, then third party groups are more vulnerable.

That was a balance in favor of the independents, where they skewed toward the town. I thought that was very fair to them, otherwise, their roles would have been impossible.

[Scouty]

I mean, Scouts got a clue on how to recruit better?

Hey, I was just being clever . No, actually, our descriptions said about roughly half could be converted and by that point (Day 5), we had to start of thinking of converting. I got the question right (much to my glee and self-esteem), so I figured it was the right thing to ask. But def's right, it was mainly just a confirmation thing.

A better question is why Scouts and Rufus were given an opportunity to ask questions in the late game

By then, Henry still asked everybody who voted correctly, so it was before Rick figured out he could limit Henry's reach. Rufus was just in the gang.

I was a little sad to miss out on the last ones, though. Henry's such the fun one.

So, is Henry just in our heads? Who was he really?

I'd really like to hear from the scum team as to whether they felt they had an 'easy' game, since a few town thought they were up against too much.

For me, it was a pretty easy game. All I had was a few brush ins with death and to make sure I was consistent in my alibi. But I relatively had not much to do. I didn't do as much behind the scenes as Draggy or the others; it was just the Sinisters, Petey (which ended after that affair), and Hinckley (And the short lived Scooby Gang ).

But even though I was sinister, I was just as confused with all these roles. We had the benefit of not really caring of killing independent/insane, but roles like Yumi's or ThePenguin's could have caused us trouble. As interesting as they are, I have to agree that they should have just been townies. We completely wiped them out.

[Ricecracker]

briefcasemacheteRicecracker

I had a lot of fun this game! Not just because I won, but because we really had to stay ahead of the Insanes, and keep on our feet. I'm honestly surprised that our whole team made it, especially since we were all suspected. I believe that the whole reason we won because we tried to plan ahead and work out the flaws in our plans, and because of the few mis-steps and oversights on behalf of the Insanes.

Right from day one we started considering different possibilities regarding our night kills (room/who carries it out/etc.), depending on the circumstances, and the choices we had regarding the PR. Once we had gotten ourselves inside the Garden Club, things became much easier. We knew a number of Insane roles, so we had more information to work with. Near the end, we had to be very careful, since different people were on to all of us. We weighed our different options carefully, pointing our and fixing the flaws in each others' plans. Though I was the leader, I really feel that we worked together and built upon each other. I decided to try this because I'm not the greatest Mafia player, while we had some great experience and skill with Draggy and Scouts. Rufus, Lord Arjay and CM, you guys all played a great game too. So, planning, planning, planning!

I don't feel the game was unfair, I think we just got lucky from the beginning. I may just feel this way because I won, but it's what I think.

I still can't believe I got you to trust me, Hinck.

Sorry

[Hinckley]

I really see the game boil down to a few mistakes, which I think I wrote about. Not catching Stash as the insane cop is the biggest, and led to Dragonator being trusted until the the end.

What I don't think you're seeing is that if Shadows was clearly insane, we would've had a solid lead about Stash being an insane cop. Since he was "independent" along with three others...and a usurper, we had no possibility of knowing the nature of Stash's role. Too random. Insane cop gets good results for bad people, bad results for good people. We got a bad result for someone who had black puss in his brain according to the game host. What chance did we stand from the land of unlimited independents to ever have a clue that Stash was an insane cop? Thanks to the black puss autopsy of his brain, we were thoroughly convinced he was a normal investigator. Couple that with the fact that my night action wouldn't work on him and we've got verification that Stash's night action works perfectly fine. Goofy, plain goofy and muddled up with too much randomness. We didn't stand a chance.

Too random.

Sorry, I'm not yelling. I'm just very passionate and I hate losing. I think this is a good debate to have and I totally respect you as a great host. This is a good de-briefing and discussion I think...I hope. It'll make us all better players and hosts in the future. Or, it'll make me a serial killer.

I love you.

But even though I was sinister, I was just as confused with all these roles. We had the benefit of not really caring of killing independent/insane, but roles like Yumi's or ThePenguin's could have caused us trouble. As interesting as they are, I have to agree that they should have just been townies. We completely wiped them out.

Geez, even the Sinister were confused. How did we stand a chance?

How?

I'm really turning into a crybaby here. Sorry.

[JimBee]

Could you explain the Whisperer role a little more? Why would Shadows not listen to it?

[def]

Sorry, but people read into Shadows death what they wanted to. He was listed as Insane. He had separate win conditions. That was all that was important. The pus on his brain was beside the point.

Think of the four totally wrong answers you gave to the restaurant riddle. You focused on the wrong points and made wrong suppositions. I understand why you did it, but that was part of the game. Likewise, you ignored the relevant stuff about Shadows. Zephyr figured it out, and you brushed him off, and got a little annoyed at him, it seems. But, the data was there.

Could you explain the Whisperer role a little more? Why would Shadows not listen to it?

Because he knew it was a role. All the other players would think it was a voice from God, but he would see through it. That was the sad thing for me, since it was such a screwy role, I wish it could have been used.

[Zepher]

Thanks for letting me play def. It sure was interesting to play something different than a townie. Normally I just had to stay alive and kill the bad guys. Now I had to stay alive for long enough, avoid getting murdered at night and get everyone to vote you off without making everything too obvious cause I would get mod killed. I found it very hard to get convicted Plus I am very happy to have WON a game for once!

...shockingly enough, this WAS your role in Eurodoina until I changed it last minute because I thought it was too bothersome of a role to give to someone, and that there were too many independents already.

[Scouty]

I decided to try this because I'm not the greatest Mafia player, while we had some great experience and skill with Draggy and Scouts.

Draggy I definitely agree with, but me? Thanks But in all honesty, I probably would have killed myself if it weren't for our back-to-back protection. I hadn't played a mafia since Witch Hunt and the games I was in I only joined half way through. Sure I won them all, but this was my first full Mafia game to play in. But I'd have to give a big hand to Arjay. My jaw is still on the ground of how you pulled out of that one !

I don't feel the game was unfair, I think we just got lucky from the beginning. I may just feel this way because I won, but it's what I think.

We were really just lucky, but I think that stems from the confusion of the insanes from all of these roles. Either way, things could have gone a completely different way and we'd still be whining about it. Anything goes. It's just that what happened happened. As I mentioned to Hinck in a PM, if we brought the Scooby gang in here (to get Blutziegel to yell out that famous line), we'd probably just end up killing them all.

[Shadows]

That was a balance in favor of the independents, where they skewed toward the town. I thought that was very fair to them, otherwise, their roles would have been impossible.

That's one of the screwed up parts. The wording didn't help the independents at all, and they didn't need help, we just had to survive. That's where attempting to supposedly balance a game actually causes the opposite result. Plus calling us independents screwed it up further since you had claimed there would be no neutrals. That left those who knew that to believe we had to all be bad accordingly, and they did believe it, even more than with normal neutrals.

[KotZ]

I'm surprised I actually didn't go insane from this! Thanks for letting me take part, def! I had so much fun. But who was this "Henry"? I stopped following about 2/3 after my lynching due to classes.

[Hinckley]

Sorry, but people read into Shadows death what they wanted to. He was listed as Insane. He had separate win conditions. That was all that was important. The pus on his brain was beside the point.

Really? Then why didn't my night action work on him?

Think of the four totally wrong answers you gave to the restaurant riddle. You focused on the wrong points and made wrong suppositions. I understand why you did it, but that was part of the game. Likewise, you ignored the relevant stuff about Shadows. Zephyr figured it out, and you brushed him off, and got a little annoyed at him, it seems. But, the data was there.

As I told you I was posting from work and the game was grinding me into a spot of low self-esteem and feeling incredibly stupid, I consider your analogy here: Not cool.

[def]

Really? Then why didn't my night action work on him?

As I told you I was posting from work and the game was grinding me into a spot of low self-esteem and feeling incredibly stupid, I consider your analogy here: Not cool.

Your ability only worked on town (except Whitefang) since changing their ability would ruin their win condition. Possibly badboy could have been made town. But, he couldn't win with town, so he was independent.

As for the analogy, it's fair. You focused on the wrong stuff. I'm not trying to pick on you, it could have happened to anyone, but the answers were there. It was consistent.

As for 'No neutrals' someone said something about neutrals a month before the game, and I said, "yeah, no neutrals". I really didn't pay much attention or care. I wasn't going to get into the roles then and there. Shadows, if you had such a big problem with your role, you should have voiced your disproval before the game started or simply dropped out and let the next player step up.

Hinck couldn't change their abilities, the investigators saw them as town. Those were the rules. I'm honestly sorry if you two feel burned by that.

[Hinckley]

Hinck couldn't change their abilities, the investigators saw them as town. Those were the rules. I'm honestly sorry if you two feel burned by that.

No worries. I don't feel burned. I feel frustrated with myself. I hate losing. You're over-simplifying in hindsight, though. "Zepher said it and you ignored it." You know how many people said things? How do I know what to listen to? That's the disadvantage of being town. You admit my night action would only work on town, therefore Shadows isn't town, you even PMed me to re-read my night action description to make sure I understood that Shadows wasn't town, therefore of course I wouldn't doubt Stash's findings. In these games, if you're town, you have to move forward on what you believe the host is trying to tell you. That's what I did, it was incorrect and it caused the game to be impossible for me to win. I thought Stash's findings were verified by mine and then by the host's clarification of my night action and the host-written autopsy of Shadows's brain. No reason to ever question Stash's findings because I didn't realize that the info and affiliations were too random and inconsistent.

Random and inconsistent.

I hope you know I love you and that my frustration is more with myself. That's not true. I'm frustrated with you and I threw Dragonator in the chamber. But, it's all in good fun. This is sportsmanlike debate. Even though I'm being a little less than a good sport. I do hope you can see where what you are saying is inconsistent. I can diagram it if you need further clarification of my point.

[Shadows]

As for 'No neutrals' someone said something about neutrals a month before the game, and I said, "yeah, no neutrals".

No, you actually said it after the game was running as well and I made a joke like "oh yeah, no neutrals at all or I'll kill the host". I do keep logs, so I can guarantee this. I also complained about it to you when I found out.

[def]

Okay, you guys win. You were saddled with an impossible hurdles. There was no consistency in the game.

And, for the record, all the PM I sent Hinck said was "reread your profile" and the reason was because what you were claiming in thread wasn't what I'd written, and wanted to make sure you understood it, since it was a homemade role. That was all.

[Hinckley]

Okay, you guys win. You were saddled with an impossible hurdles. There was no consistency in the game.

Yay! It's like winning!

And, for the record, all the PM I sent Hinck said was "reread your profile" and the reason was because what you were claiming in thread wasn't what I'd written, and wanted to make sure you understood it, since it was a homemade role. That was all.

This is true. I didn't mean to make it sound like he gave me any info about Shadows. I inferred by his clarification and then told him to let me make assumptions and butt out.

I did.

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my Shadows-style-fit. I feel dirty now.

I suppose I'll let Dragonator out of the chamber by the time Asylum 2 starts.

[Scouty]

Okay, you guys win.

It's impossible to argue with them. I know. You will never win

I suppose I'll let Dragonator out of the chamber by the time Asylum 2 starts.

:laugh:

[Hinckley]

Did anybody catch me misquoting the Bible at the beginning of the game? They were Star Wars quotes...

[Shadows]

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my Shadows-style-fit. I feel dirty now.

It's cool to watch you grow and mature like that. It's a lot nicer than your Witch Hunt fit.

[Dragonator]

I feel so filthy!!

What an awesome, roller-coaster-ride of a game. I have a few things to say...

And Draggy, you need to give Arjay his new title now.

Oh yes, so I do!

I'd really like to hear from the scum team as to whether they felt they had an 'easy' game, since a few town thought they were up against too much.

Hell no I didn't! This was one of the craziest games I have played, I was freaking out almost through the whole thing. Trying to maintain my cover across all the thousands of PMs was definitely the hardest part. It was a great bonus for our team, but it was also a huge risk; one false move or slip, and I could have been done for. I pushed far too hard for Kovacs conviction at the end there, but we were close, and I figured it was now or never. I had a great deal of trouble keeping track of what was public knowledge and what wasn't as well.I was particularly freaked when we proved Peanuts was a standard investigator, I was certain that would ring some alarm bells for people about Stash. There were a lot of moments when I was freaked in this.

What made this game a bit easier for us as the scum was being able to avoid the town night actions and thus pull off a kill every night, we wanted to. If we hadn't had that extra information, then we could easily have stumbled into a trap. Sorry Hinck, but you helped us a bit there by forming the garden club.

Overall I found this game a great challenge, and a heck of a lot of fun. Thanks everyone for playing, I really enjoyed it, one of the best all-round games we've had I think. def, your presentation was fantastic, and your hosting spot on. This was a very complex game, and I think you did an exceptional job keeping track of everything and making it as enjoyable and insane as you could. I would have loved to play on the town side, just to get more of that experience. Yes there were one or two things that were unclear perhaps, but we all make mistakes on occasion, and I'm really glad I let you host this.

My fellow sinisters, thanks for working so hard at this game. You all put in a huge amount of effort, and we really couldn't have done it without you all committing so much time and trust in each other. I really liked how we worked together and bounced ideas, communication really is a key component to a winning scum side. You are all fantastic players, it was a pleasure to work with you.

Hinck, I think you deserve a special mention. You may not have won, but you really gave this game your all, and I admire that. Your dedication to the town and your attempts to take down the sinister were really well thought out, it's just unfortunate for you that we were able to prevent most of them. Thanks for keeping me on my toes, you made this a really exciting experience for me, I had to watch what I said so carefully, and what I passed on to. I am thankful that all my fellow scum were able to keep the info I passed on between us mostly! On a completely unrelated note, I really do love that chamber skin.

To the rest of the town, you really did try your best, so really well done guys. This was an advanced game and due to a few mistakes and misinterpretations it didn't really help you much. But, the Sinister were victorious in the end, suckers.

I need to go have a shower.

[Bob]

Okay, you guys win. You were saddled with an impossible hurdles. There was no consistency in the game.

I don't know about you guys, but my character is clearly alive at the end of this game. So are all the other insanes. We really do win.

[def]

Here's my rundown, roughly of how people played, in my opinion. Some people obviously made more of an impression on me through PMs to me, and their behavior in thread. I don't know what went on in the PMs between each other.

Scum (Ricecracker, Rufus, Lord Arjay, Scouts, Dragonator)

They had no contact with me except night moves, but their moves were incredibly sharp. The frames took out two player (the King and Sok117) and caused a lot of distention among town. In other games I've played where a framer was used, it was never successful even once, so I didn't consider it a huge role, just something potentially interesting. And they parlayed it into huge distrust of Peanuts investigator.

Their killing of Stash was perfectly timed. He'd cleared Dragonator, and they took him out that night, in order to not let town know that he was an insane investigator.

I was very impressed that Lord Arjay got off so much.

Admiral Ron - I really wouldn't have shown the photo. I can't speak for anybody else, but it seemed really clear that he was the photographer. It would have worked better in PM.

Zepher - Played a decent game from where he was, and was a great example of what a town player with no ability can do in a game. Lots of rational thinking.

BobTCM - Played very well, but was always just off the mark with his protection. If you see the list of night moves, he was always taking a safe gamble.

Yumiyoshi - A first time player, but unfortunately didn't have the fundamentals of the game down, and wasn't sure how to approach her role.

TinyPies - Died too soon!

ADHO15 - Decent game, but a little quiet.

Big Cam - Died too soon!

iamded - Should have been honorary mafia, killing townies.

Rick - Did very well, considering he had one of the worst roles, the miller. I'm impressed he was able to build up trust so strongly. Also, I don't know who cracked it, but realizing that the PR controlled who got a chance for hints could have been a game changer, if they weren't infiltrated so deeply already.

Whitefang - A very unfortunate situation. He was one of the most useful town abilities, but couldn't play because of the real world.

Sandy - Mostly played smart, not killing every night, but probably shouldn't have lied to say she was the vigilante.

The Penguin - Another first timer, and I wonder if he misunderstood his role. He seemed to want to get killed, in order to use his grenade. It's not the best role, suicide bomber, but it is satisfying when town can take a killer out that way, and I like the role.

The King/Jim B - Decent play, but I think they made a big mistake placing their confidence in each other in the open. It made them ideal targets.

Hinckley - Both one of the best and worst players in the game. He was really able to rally and play a strong pro-town game, which EB games often lack, but when he was on the wrong track, he couldn't be swayed. Seeing his town game, I can imagine he's easy to spot as a scum.

Peanuts - I think Peanuts played pretty smart at the start. I was impressed that he didn't blurt out his Jim B guilty reading as soon as he got it, because there was no way to safely reveal it. Unfortunately, he had bad luck in using Scouts as a link to Hinck.

Quarryman - Died too soon, for no good reason.

Kovacs - Pretty good game, and selected scum to block a few nights. Unfortunately, the timing was off. A shame he couldn't have blocked Draggie sooner. (btw, having the scum have three members to share actions with is quite common in games, and makes the town blocker only so-so useful)

Shadows - Died to soon for bad reasons (meta-gaming)

badboytje88 - An up and down game. I thought iamded would shoot him at night. I was a little disappointed that he didn't 'purely' get lynched, and instead was a side-effect of Scouts being saved by his team.

Stash - Died too soon, but his role is terrible if you don't get that it's a reverse reading. The second/day time role was a hint, as was the description 'amateur psychologist', but I probably would have fallen for it.

Cornelius Murdock - First or second game? I thought he did pretty good, and managed to become trusted.

Mrlegoninja - A decent first game, and seemed active.

Roncanator - A decent game.

Sok117 - made very good arguments in his defense, but was a victim of a runaway vote.

I thank you all for your commitment to the game, and your generally good spirits about it. As 'town', I think Zepher, Rick and Hinckley were the best role models of how to attack the game. There were other good players, but they didn't survive and lead the way they did. And I was glad to see all the new players last as long as they did.

Now to start dismantling my sets. I have a lot of bricks to sort.