Rank the castle themes/factions

[SirBlake]

Since we’re often talking about the past themes and the associated factions, I thought there would be some fun to be had talking about our favorites and least favorites. There are a lot of ways to organize this, but it seems fair to lean on the Bricklink organization system with some tweaks. Some of them are listed as themes, others split out into factions. I can’t explain it, but it does help keep things more manageable. Here’s how I see the list, roughly in order of release:

Classic Castle

Original Lions/Crusaders

Original Black Falcons

Forestmen

Black Knights

Wolfpack

Dragon Knights

Royal Knights

Dark Forest

Fright Knights

KKI

KKII

Fantasy Era

Kingdoms

2013 Castle

New Black Falcons (Ideas Blacksmith/3-in-1)

New Lions (90th Anniversary)

And here’s my personal ranking:

1. Lions/Crusaders

2. New Lions

3. Kingdoms

4. New Black Falcons

5. Black Falcons

6. Forestmen

7. Black Knights

8. Wolfpack

9. Fantasy Era

10. Fright Knights

11. 2013 Castle

12. KKI

13. Dark Forest

14. Royal Knights

15. KKII

Now for the fun part: Why?

1. 6080 was my first castle, and there were so many sets for the theme, this one was always my home base. Love those lions. 2. Though I don’t have it in hand yet, the parts, techniques, size, asymmetry, minifig selection puts the 90th set way up there. 3. Kingdoms was just really well done. Great heraldry, basic concept sets that were well executed. A solid civilian set and the joust is just wonderful. 4. Love both the blacksmith and 3-in-1. These two sets seem to have ushered in a new golden age when it comes to referencing the good old days, and providing fun builds. 5. Original falcons are just good. Not nearly as many sets as the lions, but solid offerings. 6. The three large forestmen sets are all excellent. Wish there were more. 7. It could easily be argued that the Black Knights should be higher. Two amazing castles and fun supporting sets. I think I have to remove a few points for the basic nature of the red/blue scale armor. It’s fine. 8. Wolfpack is a fun concept, but there’s not enough of them. 9. Fantasy Era is special, especially when it comes to the minifigs. I would like to rank them higher, but aside from the MMV, it’s a bunch of sets I just don’t want that badly. Couple of cool boats though. 10. Classic Castle. Nostalgia goes a long way, and as much as I like the old visor helmets, the "armor" pieces and the pink of the yellow castle knights are a tough one. 11-15. Everything else is just lackluster. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by SirBlake
clarification

[danth]

1. Black Falcons. These guys were one of the main factions when I was a kid, and they seemed like upstarts or underdogs compared to the Lion Knights. That made them cooler. They were darker and seemed a litter more badass then the Lions.

2. Forestmen. These were the new cool thing when I was in my prime kid years, and were completely different, and lived in trees like Robin Hood! 

3. Tie between Black Knights, Wolfpack, and the original Classic Castle knights. Black Knights had new helmets and shields, Wolf Pack were badass rogues, and the original Classic Castle dudes had "old" helmets and shields which made them interesting.

4. Lion Knights. They were fine, but boring. The status quo.

5. Tie between everything else. Don't care enough to rank them.

I don't consider the "new" Black Falcons/Lions as different factions, just continuations of their original factions.

[woodford86]

I'm not sure what counts as 2013 Castle, but I also think The Hobbit/LOTR should be included. My ranking is some weird mix of nostalgia and genuine interest

1. New Black Falcons
2. Black Falcons
3. Wolfpack
4. Forestmen
5. New Lions
6. Black Knights
7. Dark Forest
8. Kingdoms
9. Lions/Crusaders
10. LOTR/Hobbit
11. Royal Knights
12. Fantasy Era
13. Knights Kingdom I
14. Fright Knights
(long gap here)
15. Knights Kingdom II

I just really didn't like the Fright Knights. In fact I'd suggest their release is what kickstarted my dark ages which also means I'm not super familiar with all the KK's, Fantasy, LOTR etc. The Ideas Blacksmith is what really brought me back into it.

Favorite Set: 6086 Black Knights Castle
Favorite Mini: CMF 15 Frightening Knight
Favorite Theme: Modern Black Falcons, because I love the updated minifigs.

[RichardGoring]

I only ever had forestmen and a few lion knights as a child, so those are top 2 for me. The new Black Falcons are nice in the current sets, but I don't have any strong feelings or nostalgia for any of the others.

Forestmen are clearly the best!

[MAB]

1. Kingdoms.

2. Black Falcons and new BF (but with plain black legs and black arms).

3. Crusaders and new Crusaders.

4. Wolfpak.

5. New Forestmen.

6. Fantasy Era.

7=. Black Knights and

7=. Dark Forest

8. Forestmen.

All the rest.

 

2013 Crown Knights are way down but Dragon Knights higher up.

If LOTR and Hobbit, they take slots 1 and 2. And I'd also slot in CMF elf, actor and Shakespeare (with weapons and helmets), Evil and Heroic Knight, etc in about the same level as Black Falcons to Crusaders. 

[SirBlake]

Great responses!

It makes sense not to separate new/vs old Black Falcons/lions. I separated them on my list because they are so far removed from each other in time, and the builds/minifigs are quite different in sophistication. 
 

I didn’t have either Black Falcon castle when I was a kid and didn’t feel like I was missing too much. The falcons always felt like somebody my Lions could fight with. I’ve since acquired both of them in adulthood, and I’m glad I got them. Though neither hold a candle to 6080 or King’s Mountain Fortress. In my heart, anyways. 
 

I debated on including LotR, simply because I love Helms Deep and the Moria set so much. I figured it’d be best to leave licensed out of it, but it’s fun to see it added in someone’s list. 

[woodford86]

Speaking of LOTR, I completely forgot that Amazon's coming out with that show. What are the chances Lego might revisit that theme?

[SirBlake]

2 minutes ago, woodford86 said:

Speaking of LOTR, I completely forgot that Amazon's coming out with that show. What are the chances Lego might revisit that theme?

I would guess those chances would be slim. 

[icm]

I was never much into Castle, but I'd rank them as

1. Original Lion Knights.  They had the first castle built in light grey with panels and molded horses, so it was the first "real" castle IMO.  Lots of classic charm there.
2. Original Black Falcons.  The contemporary opposing faction to the Lion Knights, their castles were smaller but just as good.
3. Forestmen. A small, short-lived, subtheme, but with a strong identity that's distinct from "another square gray castle" yet fits in perfectly with the Lion Knights and Black Falcons as a Robin Hood-esque third party.
4. Fright Knights.  This was the Castle theme when I got into Lego, so its high ranking is mainly nostalgia talking.  It's got a very strong identity with a completely different style of castle to the others.  But the builds are very sparse and rely on huge base bricks and BURPs.
5. Castle 2013. It's the only large quadrangle castle with both a drawbridge and a portcullis, and the dragon mountain has a nice St George-and-the-Dragon fairy-tale feel.
6. Kingdoms. A very classic return to form for Castle, with lots of charming civilian sets, and a colorful quadrangle castle. Ranked lower than Castle 2013 just because the gatehouse of the castle is simpler.
7. New Black Falcons/New Lions. The 31120 and 10305 castles are both very nice, wholesome Lego builds with neat minifigures (though far too few in 31120), but two one-off sets do not a Castle theme make.  The 31120 is the only castle I actually own.
8. Royal Knights. The best big castle built on a raised baseplate.
9. Black Knights. The second best big castle built on a raised baseplate.
10. Knights Kingdom II.  A boldly experimental theme with a huge bad-guy castle for Vladek, but severely hampered by the mid-2000s use of Bionicle parts and other huge specialized action-figure parts in minifig-scale builds where they don't work well and don't belong.
11. Fantasy Era. A boldly experimental theme pushing Castle in a new direction, but again hamstrung by all those Bionicle parts.  I wasn't a big fan of the concept anyway, I don't want orcs and goblins and undead skeletons in my Lego world.
12. Dragon Knights. Kudos to them for introducing the classic Lego dragon.
13. Knights Kingdom I. The siege engines were ugly and the castle build was crappy, but it did experiment with a new castle shape, ie the pyramidal fairy-tale castle on a hill with banners and stained glass, rather than the quadrangular fortress on the plain.
14. Classic Castle., ie the Yellow Castle.  Very primitive, it doesn't read as a "real castle" anymore, unlike the Lion Knights and Black Falcon castles. But it started the whole thing off, so I don't feel like placing it at the bottom.
15. Dark Forest. This subtheme didn't have a strong identity, but I did have a small set from it when I was a kid.
16. Wolfpack.  This subtheme didn't have a strong identity either.

Edited July 6, 2022 by icm

[Triceron]

Hard to categorize since my preferences and tastes change over time, but here goes:

S Tier :  Forestmen.  I only ever had the minifigures and a couple wagons from the 80's, but I loved em as a kid.  I later had a couple Dark Forest sets that I worked them all into.  Forestmen were just awesome, having a wide variety of torsos instead of the same basic emblem-on-chest we had with Crusaders and Black Falcons.  For whatever reason, I had more forestmen figures than most of my other factions.

A Tier :  Black Knights, Black Falcons.  Knights Stronghold was the biggest 'Castle' set I had as a kid early on, while I had plenty of other smaller Black Knight and Black Falcon sets to build up a mini army to accompany it.  I love the design of the Black Knight wyvern shields, and to me they are what I still see as the epitome of Castle themes.  It's just a shame I never had a chance to get Black Monarch's Castle (my white whale) or Black Knight's Castle.

B Tier :  Dragon Masters, Wolfpack.  These themes were very memorable to me, but they always filled a gap more than ever had a place as a 'mainstay' Castle theme.  My cousin had Wolfpack Tower (which I eventually traded my Pirate sets to him for) and I had the Dragon Wagon and Majisto's Magic Workshop, and these are some of the more iconic sets in the series.  I'd say they're only in B-tier only because I never had a large amount of these guys to really make use of a 'faction war' the way I had Forestmen, Black Knights and Black Falcons.

C Tier :  Royal Knights, Fright Knights, Crusaders.  It's kinda tough putting these all in C-Tier when I actually have a very strong appreciation for these themes, but they came when I was getting into High School and beginning my Dark Ages.  Crusaders came a bit too early in my collection, so I only have like 3 soldier dudes that I never really knew what to do with.  Royal Knights I bought the King and the Skeleton ambush, otherwise I wasn't big on the other sets.  I loved the crown and shiny sword they introduced, and the skeletons are a staple to the series now.  Fright Knights are in the same boat; they introduced lots of new parts and pieces but overall the theme came a little too late.  Oddly enough, when I got back into Lego in the last couple years Royal Knights and Fright Knights were the armies I revisited most in my collection.  Mostly because vintage Black Knight and Forestmen collecting is crazy pricy though.

Everything else is kind of supplementary to me.  I have bits and pieces from many other Castle themes, but mostly to supplement the core 80's-90's Castle sets I have.  All of my Fantasy era skeletons and dark wizards support my Fright Knights, all the Crown Knights support the Royal Knights, all the Dwarves are present in mines underneath my Castle mocs.  I don't really collect those sets for their own themes, so hard for me to place them anywhere in a ranking system.  Same goes with LOTR, Harry Potter, Nexo Knights or anything else that fits the broader 'Fantasy' category.

I will say that I have a much stronger appreciation for Crusaders now that I'm able to fill in some gaps in my collection.  I don't know how I came across it, but I have one of the Crusader bardings, and it's probably one of my favourite pieces in my entire Castle collection.  Honestly looking forward to the Lion Knight's Castle to build up a Lion Knights army that I never had before.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Triceron

[MAB]

19 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

It makes sense not to separate new/vs old Black Falcons/lions. I separated them on my list because they are so far removed from each other in time, and the builds/minifigs are quite different in sophistication. 
 

I think the old BF and Crusaders are not so different to the new. Although I don't like the new legs, I prefer plain. I also switch the arms, as black look arms look more traditional for BF. Whereas the new forestman torso looks so much better than the old.

[SirBlake]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

I think the old BF and Crusaders are not so different to the new. Although I don't like the new legs, I prefer plain. I also switch the arms, as black look arms look more traditional for BF. Whereas the new forestman torso looks so much better than the old.

Yeah, the main reason I separated them was due to the nature of the builds. Original Lions and Black Falcons were all "system" style, and therefore roughly comparable in parts and complexity. The newer versions are definitely more sophisticated. For example, no big wall panels on any of it.

 

1 hour ago, Triceron said:

Hard to categorize since my preferences and tastes change over time, but here goes:

I really like your tier system. That's a nice way to look at it.

[Rattlebricks]

My personal favs :

1. Dragon knights

2. Forestmen/Dark forest

3. Royal knights

4. Black knights

5. Lion/Axe Crusaders

6. Wolfpack

7. Fright knights

8. Crown knights

9. Anything else that isnt listed above

[mrcp6d]

My thoughts on factions run like this:

1. Black Knights / Crown Knights / Crusaders / Kingdoms
   • These are the top dogs and they're all pretty equivalent in my mind.  Design and execution of these factions was on point.  Great variety within the minifigs, plus a ton of sets that enabled Lego to show the factions off to their potential.  I don't think this last fact can be understated in our perception of the factions, and it's huge in my opinion especially with respect to sub-themes/eras.
2. Black Falcons / Dragon Knights / Royal Knights / 2013 Lions
   • Starting with Black Falcons, they were just too similar to each other and this lack of variation pulls them out of the top echelon for me.  Dragon Knights are really cool, and are in fact my absolute favorite theme; but the factions in the group above are more complete--even if they don't have Majisto!  Royal Knights were a good expansion of Castle, and they gave us the crown piece, but other than that, I can't say there was anything special about this faction.  The 2013 Lions were pretty good and certainly the spiritual successors to a couple early '90s factions.  Despite some pretty good minifigures and variety the 2013 factions just feel a little too crisp and polished, if that makes any sense at all.
3. Vikings
   • Fantastic minifigures came out of this sub-theme!
4. Dwarves / Trolls
   • These I think were really cool innovations within an already really cool and innovative sub-theme/era of Castle.  Great new pieces here and these factions expanded the art of the possible within a Castle sub-theme.
5. Fright Knights / KK Bulls / 2013 Dragons
   • I really don't think there was anything wrong with the Fright Knights save for the overly comical Willa, this faction just didn't get to be fleshed out as much as those above.  KK Bulls had some really nice torso and leg printing--versatile too.  Ultimately though, they were kind of a strange faction with the Dragon Knights helms used to hold horns and the attempt at "bad guy" faces didn't work in my opinion.  The iconography of the 2013 Dragons was too cartoonish; and they did the whole "evil face" design thing with this faction that I appreciate just as much as I did with the KK Bulls.  A better sigil and way less black everywhere would have lifted this faction up the rankings.
6. KK Lions
   • Oh boy....  These (and the KK Bulls) came out around the time Lego was really struggling with its business.  The torso and minifig face design in this faction was generally a downgrade from everything that came before, and most that came after.
7. KKII Scorpion Knights / Skeletons
   • I think the Skeletons were actually awesome and very much in line with my thoughts on the Dwarves and Trolls above.  There's just not that much they could have done here though.  Scorpion Knights weren't horrible, but very monolithic.  The baddie faction they evolved/changed into for KKII I think was better, but it was so limited that I'm not sure you can really call it a faction.
8. KKII Jelly Knights
   • 

I can't really rank Forestmen and Wolfpack against the "knightly" factions as they're totally different IMO.  However, if forced, I'd add them to my list of #1s above.  Forestmen were complete and cohesive, Wolfpack was just plain cool.

[SirBlake]

Once again, the tier system for ranking shines. I feel like it’s more indicative of our thoughts on these. Here’s my tier ranking:

Tier 1: Lions/crusaders (new and old), Kingdoms, Black Falcons (new and old), Forestmen  

Tier 2: Black Knighs, Wolfpack, Fantasy Era

Tier 3: Fright Knights, 2013 Castle

Tier 4: KKI, Dark Forest, Royal Knights

Tier “shouldn’t have happened”: KKII

[BitByBrick]

For what it’s worth, my ranking is reflective of my love of all things classic castle. The recent castle theme revival of BrickLink and LEGO sets has me entering a new “dark-age” (or should I say “medieval-age”) for LEGO. I’ve included my favorite set for each faction as well. 

1- Lion Knights / 6080 King’s Castle

2- Forestmen / 6066 Camouflaged Outpost

3- Black Falcons / 6074 Black Falcon’s Fortress

4- Black Knights / 6086 Black Knight’s Castle

5- Wolfpack / 6038 Wolfpack Renegades

 

 

[Hive]

You may find this old poll of mine interesting as well,as it's a similar topic:

 

[Triceron]

That old poll has some surprising results.

Forestmen are quite low on the poll and quite a few people voted on Kingdoms Lions.

[SirBlake]

7 hours ago, Hive said:

You may find this old poll of mine interesting as well,as it's a similar topic:

 

I love it! Thanks for posting that. I think the results are interesting, but not too surprising. 
 

3 hours ago, Triceron said:

That old poll has some surprising results.

Forestmen are quite low on the poll and quite a few people voted on Kingdoms Lions.

Makes sense to me. From a purely graphic standpoint, I’d have to say that the Kingdoms Lions is my favorite too.