Do you only buy lego?

[Black Falcon]

18 hours ago, Toastie said:

Claiming the minifig is a "3D trademark". Just google it: Trademark and 3D. It is absurd.

For me it is not. I would rather say it is pretty common and protects a product beeing copied by others.

 

[SpacePolice89]

34 minutes ago, Black Falcon said:

For me it is not. I would rather say it is pretty common and protects a product beeing copied by others.

 

I completely agree. They designed the minifigure so it's only fair that it's protected.

19 hours ago, dtomsen said:

Please tell me what this factory owned by GoBricks is then?

The article has no information about the employees so I can't comment on that one.

[Horation]

On 11/16/2023 at 4:26 PM, Toastie said:

Oh, it sure is, but also the other way around; just because a piece of ABS comes from the market leader and has a LEGO logo printed on its studs or elsewhere does not make it automatically superior. It may feel that way - but that is also "subjective". I have the impression that folks arguing about ABS piece quality TLG vs "The Dark Side" never (or rarely) had a piece from alternative sources in their hands. There is crap out there (children will surely have fun with!) and there is superior stuff out there.

I hear: "OK, define superior" Now, that is subjective : Some say: "Bad, bad, bad: I barely couldn't get the plates apart!" Others claim: "The clutch power is insane, this model will last forever!" The former wanting to rebuild a thousand times, the latter assembling a nitty-gritty shelf model ... It all depends. Been there, done all of that, I am old.

Regarding the minifigs: Patents stills active; and that's it for me: Hands off "illegal copies".

The thing for me is: When patents run out, it becomes totally legal to totally copy that stuff. And sell it for a much cheaper price, >provided you can<. Believe me, the development costs the original inventor has invested some 20 years ago, have either been compensator for multiple thousand times, or a) the invention was not as cool as thought, b) marketing sucked during that time, or c) they simply did not get it right. When, after 20+ years, a competitor shows up and says: I can make that way cheaper - they have to invest as well: Machinery (highly precise molding stuff, right ABS formulas, the hole shoo bang). And when the original inventor has not learned how to improve or adapt or whatever, then, well - too bad! Welcome to the real world. The world, by the way, in which you made billions of surplus for decades.

Conclusion: I am browsing the BB website for all sorts of generic pieces. And rarely order from TLG. In contrast, when it comes to high-quality stuff like PBricks, PoweredUp (yes, I truly believe this is very high quality stuff. Not the crappy apps - TLG never made nice software - but there are alternatives, which totally unfold the power of PUp), I visit BL. The real market prices, not the totally out of control TLG prices they float on their website. 

But: No minifig ... cheap copies. This is not, how it is meant to work. The moment these patents run out - and they will for sure, all floodgates will open. In the meantime, TLG should make something new, patent it and rake in money. They have the tools, they have the talent (https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/0d992b79-8cf0-4da3-8e3b-6cbcdaecf9fb)

Best regards,
Thorsten

I have either received or purchased competitors, and yes their quality IS worse : worse clutch power, worse durability, worse child-friendliness (ex: BlueBrixx's black pearl looks great-but only as a display scale model-and you need to use fiddly cables on top of it all, by comparison it is quite easy to reassemble most Lego sets to play with or to display in a new way) and worse colour consistency, now those ARE criteria you can discuss, I never mentioned anything about a Logo making a product better or worse....

Also, the patent on Minifigs expired a long time ago, but courts have agreed with the company that it is a shape intrinsically associated with the product (ex: like coca-cola's bottles) and as such no competition can be had- up to you to decide if you agree or not, but for me that's enough to not buy any illegal counterfeits. 

[Toastie]

5 hours ago, Horation said:

and yes their quality IS worse : worse clutch power, worse durability, worse child-friendliness

Well, I'd call that bad luck. It of course depends on the manufacturer of the set you got/bought - I simply had and continue to have other experiences, particularly lately.

With regard to the criteria you are listing: Clutch power: My Flying Dutchman (MK) will never fall apart, I bet. Durability? Test are still running, but I believe that the ABS formulations MK, CADA, Cobi use, will last as long as TLG's. Child-friendliness: I am 61 years old, and I am using the little tool to get things apart again, because of the stronger clutch power.

I guess it is all individual experience, taste and purpose. 

With regard to the minifigs: Patent expired, but the 3D trademark is protecting it; as I said, a no-go for me. Same thing with blunt copies of LEGO sets.

Best,
Thorsten      

[neithan]

Building Rivendell right now, yesterday I tried to clutch together the bricks for the gazebo. And I was surprised at how bad the quality of the white bricks was! Even with much more pressure than ever, there are still little gaps visible.

But hey, it`s only a minor 500€ Set with a niche license. ;-)

 

Don`t get me wrong, I`m not anti-Lego and there are non-Lego sets with poor (or at least worse than Lego) quality, but Lego isn`t that good anymore, either. There are so many complaints about many different sets (for me: Rivendell, friends mentioned Star Wars, Marvel, City), the print quality on minifigs is hilariously bad and the price for many sets is scam. So for me, where many stores already have different brands in stock (something that was unheard of 10 or so years ago), you don`t have to buy Lego all the time. :-)

[MAB]

6 hours ago, Horation said:

..... worse child-friendliness (ex: BlueBrixx's black pearl looks great-but only as a display scale model-and you need to use fiddly cables on top of it all, by comparison it is quite easy to reassemble most Lego sets to play with or to display in a new way) .....

I haven't built it, but ut doesn't look too bad for a 14+ child to cope with. Some people like sets marketed towards older teens and adults to be more complex and challenging than those designed for younger children. The alternative view is that some 18+ sets from LEGO are too childish, and the 18+ badge is really for marketing over complexity.

Edited November 24, 2023 by MAB

[Horation]

On 11/24/2023 at 2:32 AM, Toastie said:

 I am 61 years old, and I am using the little tool to get things apart again, because of the stronger clutch power.

There is such a thing as clutch power and another thing which is poor parts quality : here we can see the parts are TOO HARD to take apart, which suggests not good clutch power but imprecise moulds which result in hard to unbuild sets, I have that same problem with parts which got bent or damaged, it has nothing to do with the parts having gained clutch power from better expertise, and much more to do with the opposite..

Also, you might simply be getting too old for this (no offense intended). 

I will concede that cobi is rather good, but I always have a good experience with TLG's stuff ( am I that lucky or is it just a vocal few complaining while the silent majority is happy?)

On 11/24/2023 at 3:29 AM, MAB said:

I haven't built it, but [it] doesn't look too bad for a 14+ child to cope with. Some people like sets marketed towards older teens and adults to be more complex and challenging than those designed for younger children. The alternative view is that some 18+ sets from LEGO are too childish, and the 18+ [label] is really for marketing over complexity.

The 18+ label does serve that purpose, but one of the niceties of Lego is that anyone can play with any part of it, if you want a model kit, buy a model kit (those are a lot of fun), but this product is still supposed to be a toy.

But I'll admit to having a very nostalgia-induced opinion on how things should be done.

[Yperio_Bricks]

56 minutes ago, Horation said:

I will concede that cobi is rather good, but I always have a good experience with TLG's stuff ( am I that lucky or is it just a vocal few complaining while the silent majority is happy?)

Or you simply forgot the bad experiences with Lego you had 

Just today i received my latest PAB order. I ordered a hairpiece and it sits so tight on the heads, if i want to pull the hair piece off it takes the head with it. So i have to press the head against the neck at an angle so it does not come off together with the hair piece.

[Horation]

4 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Or you simply forgot the bad experiences with Lego you had 

Just today i received my latest PAB order. I ordered a hairpiece and it sits so tight on the heads, if i want to pull the hair piece off it takes the head with it. So i have to press the head against the neck at an angle so it does not come off together with the hair piece.

There was that one time a piece was missing...

Well, I had that problem with some helmets, it was due to the parts being damaged, check to make sure the parts aren't damaged and if they are ask for a replacement. Alternatively it might just be such an annoying design, what is the part ID? (ideally with a link to Bricklink, Brickset or TLG's website

[Yperio_Bricks]

7 hours ago, Horation said:

There was that one time a piece was missing...

Well, I had that problem with some helmets, it was due to the parts being damaged, check to make sure the parts aren't damaged and if they are ask for a replacement. Alternatively it might just be such an annoying design, what is the part ID? (ideally with a link to Bricklink, Brickset or TLG's website

It's this one from the Daily Bugle. It is brand new and not damaged. Maybe after some time it will wear down a little bit. (It's one of my favorite hair pieces and when i saw it available in red at PAB i had to order it!).

6343473

It's not the first time a minifig part fits very tight. It happens rarely, but i also had a arm that is almost impossible to rotate or a head that is almost impossible to turn. All my Lego is brand new and bought in the past few years.

Of course i also had bricks with discolorations. One was very striking, it was almost as if there were two shades of tan. One was a little bit more olive. I only saw it when i build a tan ground for a moc and all the plates were next to each other.

[DonQuixote]

I don't buy only Lego but also from the German 🇩🇪Bluebrixx. They also have fysical stores. The reason for that is because they offer  a lot of themes that Lego doesn't. The quality has really gone up the last years and competition is good. 

However, I still prefer Lego only because they pay and threat their workers well. 

For me as an anarchist 🏴that's the most important thing. 

If workers are treated like shit... well then it's revolution time! 🏴🏴🏴

And the guillotine will be ready 😁

Look what happened at the French🇨🇵 revolution! 

Let that be a warning for all companies and goverments in the world! 

Edited November 26, 2023 by DonQuixote
spelling mistake

[SpacePolice89]

1 hour ago, DonQuixote said:

However, I still prefer Lego only because they pay and threat their workers well.

That is also very important for me, it seems like an issue most people can agree on. I'm more neoconservative when it comes to politics but let's not get into that too much. Whatever I buy I try to buy from companies that pay their workers well and hasn't moved production to low cost countries. For example all my flashlights are Maglite (made in the US), batteries mostly Varta (Germany) and electric razors Philips (the Netherlands). All my cars have been UK made Fords or South Korean made Chevys. My main reason for liking Lego is the superior product but manufacturing locations and working conditions are also very important for me.

[El Garfio]

The theme limit that TLG has autoimposed makes that more of AFOLs have to draw on other brands if you want military items or minifigs related with some licenses that could be not suitable for kids

I have bought sets from several brands sometimes for the license o theme of the set, sometimes for the ridiculous price of some sets that are sold on Asian bazaars 

[Toastie]

2 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

Whatever I buy I try to buy from companies that pay their workers well and hasn't moved production to low cost countries.

That is a very nice move, and I like that attitude very much!

However, TLG does produce its bricks and plates in: Denmark (OK, that is a country treating their workers well - the country in general that is), Hungary - the country in Europe led by Victor Orban - just google him as well as the pay situation in that country, Mexico (no further comment), and ... China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego). Of course. I guess the reason is: https://www.economist.com/china/2023/05/04/lego-the-worlds-top-toymaker-focuses-on-china

I don't consider Hungary, Mexico, and China as high-cost countries, labor-wise, but what do I know.

Well, Varta. They produce in Germany, Romania, and Indonesia. Philips produces shavers in the Netherlands and in China. Wikipedia tells you where.

I guess in a global economy, for a globally operating enterprise (mass production), there is no way to not produce in low labor cost countries.

And I have no clue, how the folks molding the TLG's ABS bricks are treated and paid. On the other hand: There must be a reason for such a globally operating multi-billion company to relocate mass production to these particular countries.

Best,
Thorsten

[Horation]

3 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

That is also very important for me, it seems like an issue most people can agree on. I'm more neoconservative when it comes to politics but let's not get into that too much. Whatever I buy I try to buy from companies that pay their workers well and hasn't moved production to low cost countries. For example all my flashlights are Maglite (made in the US), batteries mostly Varta (Germany) and electric razors Philips (the Netherlands). All my cars have been UK made Fords or South Korean made Chevys. My main reason for liking Lego is the superior product but manufacturing locations and working conditions are also very important for me.

I'm also fairly conservative on economical issues : if people want to support cheap competitors, they are welcome to do so, but the better product will usually win.

11 minutes ago, Toastie said:

That is a very nice move, and I like that attitude very much!

I don't consider Hungary, Mexico, and China as high-cost countries, labor-wise, but what do I know.

Well, Varta. They produce in Germany, Romania, and Indonesia. Philips produces shavers in the Netherlands and in China. 

I guess in a global economy, for a globally operating enterprise (mass production), there is no way to not produce in low labor cost countries.

And I have no clue, how the folks molding the TLG's ABS bricks are treated and paid. On the other hand: There must be a reason for such a globally operating multi-billion company to relocate mass production to these particular countries.

Well ,there are still some standards, and I must assume they are also partly doing this for supply chain issues (ex : harder to ship from Europe to China than China to China) and partly to build a name in the area (the courts are likelier to help a company that makes them in China and creates jobs there than a company that only works elsewhere).

[SpacePolice89]

9 hours ago, Toastie said:

That is a very nice move, and I like that attitude very much!

However, TLG does produce its bricks and plates in: Denmark (OK, that is a country treating their workers well - the country in general that is), Hungary - the country in Europe led by Victor Orban - just google him as well as the pay situation in that country, Mexico (no further comment), and ... China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego). Of course. I guess the reason is: https://www.economist.com/china/2023/05/04/lego-the-worlds-top-toymaker-focuses-on-china

I don't consider Hungary, Mexico, and China as high-cost countries, labor-wise, but what do I know.

Well, Varta. They produce in Germany, Romania, and Indonesia. Philips produces shavers in the Netherlands and in China. Wikipedia tells you where.

I guess in a global economy, for a globally operating enterprise (mass production), there is no way to not produce in low labor cost countries.

And I have no clue, how the folks molding the TLG's ABS bricks are treated and paid. On the other hand: There must be a reason for such a globally operating multi-billion company to relocate mass production to these particular countries.

Best,
Thorsten

If I remember correctly most regular pieces sold in Europe are made in Denmark and packing and brick printing is done in the Czech Republic (two countries that I respect very much and both have strong democracy) while Hungary mostly produces Duplo and some regular bricks. I'm aware of the situation in Hungary and I see Orban as a great threat to democracy but Hungary is still way better than total dictatorships like China because Hungary still has to follow EU rules and can't work too openly with Russia because of NATO. I have Hungarian friends and greatly respect the Hungarian people but I have very different feelings for Orban and his pack. Even in low cost countries like China where slave labor is common Lego offers good working conditions and benefits while pay unfortunately is according to local standards. I read somewhere that Lego regularly get top spots when they rank the best employers in Europe, unfortunately I can't remember where. My cousin's friend works for them and she has only good things to say about the company. When it comes to other products like batteries and electric razors I always check the country of origin before I buy. I recently bought a Philips razor and there were different models made in different countries, NL, CHN, and Indonesia I think. I bought the one from the Netherlands.

[DonQuixote]

Another thing. I have several bad experiences when ordering on Lego.com. DPD is the worst delivery company there is. I Ordered Eldorado Fortress 27 november and still is in warehouse of DPD in Belgium (where I live). Compare this with the German Bluebrixx company. I have ordered several things from them and always got my products with in a few days. They use DHL. And their quality really has gone up the last year. And they do reply on your email. Way better customer service. They really care about their customers. 

[Horation]

14 hours ago, DonQuixote said:

Another thing. I have several bad experiences when ordering on Lego.com. DPD is the worst delivery company there is. I Ordered Eldorado Fortress 27 november and still is in warehouse of DPD in Belgium (where I live). Compare this with the German Bluebrixx company. I have ordered several things from them and always got my products with in a few days. They use DHL. And their quality really has gone up the last year. And they do reply on your email. Way better customer service. They really care about their customers. 

The 1st part has nothing to do with the companies' products, it is likely a by-product of an agreement by the two for a better shipping deal, when ordering in Canada, Lego is quite fast while others are often painfully slow, so it is all relative.

Well, Lego's quality has remained quite good, and they also reply on your email, I have never had a problem with their customer service, any business that doesn't really care about their customers tends to fail (at least in this industry).

[Toastie]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:53 PM, Horation said:

here we can see the parts are TOO HARD to take apart, which suggests not good clutch power but imprecise moulds which result in hard to unbuild sets

Ooops, missed this one: No they are not. The MK Flying Dutchman is a pure display model. I rigged her up quite a bit. Also, the bow and stern sections really benefit from that stronger clutch power - there is absolutely nothing wrong with the molds, in contrast. I'll never take that beauty apart. Yes, this is not in the sense of true LEGO, but the folks over in Billund themselves have abandoned ship on that one with all their black boxes sets.

Yes, could be - too old, who knows. I was building for 4 1/2 decades with LEGO only. Over the last decade, I ran into some other companies as well. And eventually reverted to vintage LEGO (mostly parts, not sets; the latter usually have insane price tags, for obvious reasons). As said elsewhere, 58 years of building with ABS bricks results in some sort of experience or better "familiarity" with the product.

There is hardly any space left up here in my "office" - but I could not resist asking Santa for the Pantasy Steampunk Train Station (85007), which includes a suspended train + one carriage. I sure hope for >very< strong clutch power, as I am entertaining the idea of doing a little automation project with that one

Best,
Thorsten

[Black Falcon]

17 hours ago, DonQuixote said:

 And they do reply on your email. Way better customer service. They really care about their customers. 

I can´t say much about their customer support, but I never had problems with their support. On the contrary, actually their support is the best I have seen so far. 

[Horation]

4 hours ago, Toastie said:

Ooops, missed this one: No they are not. The MK Flying Dutchman is a pure display model. I rigged her up quite a bit. Also, the bow and stern sections really benefit from that stronger clutch power - there is absolutely nothing wrong with the moulds, in contrast. I'll never take that beauty apart. Yes, this is not in the sense of true LEGO, but the folks over in Billund themselves have abandoned ship on that one with all their black boxes sets.

Yes, could be - too old, who knows. I was building for 4 1/2 decades with LEGO only. Over the last decade, I ran into some other companies as well. And eventually reverted to vintage LEGO (mostly parts, not sets; the latter usually have insane price tags, for obvious reasons). As said elsewhere, 58 years of building with ABS bricks results in some sort of experience or better "familiarity" with the product.
Thorsten

Well, it seems like we have a very different philosophy- I like builds I can disassemble and reuse with ease (hence my dislike of technic, which uses hard to undo mechanisms). But you appear to like display models more, to the point where you have no intention of taking the sets apart. Fine by me but you can't claim it is a plus that a part is harder to take apart and call it "stronger clutch power" when it is obviously a cheaper mould used to make the part that makes it less reusable (a high quality mould will make a part fit pretty much perfectly, meaning without too much friction and without too much looseness), of course if you have some evidence that parts which fit too tightly are a sign of quality moulds, let me know...

From what I've seen, the folks in Billund's large sets are filled with tons of parts which are easy to reuse if you want to. The choice is yours. 

[Yperio_Bricks]

14 minutes ago, Horation said:

 of course if you have some evidence that parts which fit too tightly are a sign of quality moulds, let me know...

Do you have evidence that it is the other way round?

Cobi has a much higher clutch power from what i have heared. One would think it is intentional.

[Toastie]

34 minutes ago, Horation said:

Well, it seems like we have a very different philosophy- I like builds I can disassemble and reuse with ease

Don't think so, philosophy-wise: I have about €25k of LEGO bricks and plates here in my attic - mostly MOCs, and many sorted away in storage bins, I can easily access to "play" with. Many are of the Mindstorms variety and - trains ;)

I have about 10 larger display models; the MK FD, TLG's Silent Mary, Saturn 5, Apollo 11 Eagle, the bust of Darth Vader, 42042 Technic crawler crane, 3 modulars and that's about it. I like to play as well despite being old.

Best,
Thorsten 

[Horation]

3 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Do you have evidence that it is the other way round?

Cobi has a much higher clutch power from what i have [heard]. One would think it is intentional.  [to hear is an irregular verb]

Parts which fit too strongly together are considered imperfect, that is the default position on this issue.

If you disagree, the burden of proof is on you. 

If the clutch power is better, surely someone has more than anecdotal evidence (say measurements of the relative strength needed to take them apart), because that's all I'm hearing as of right now. If someone can prove it, I will happily admit being wrong.

 

3 hours ago, Toastie said:

Don't think so, philosophy-wise: I have about €25k of LEGO bricks and plates here in my attic - mostly MOCs, and many sorted away in storage bins, I can easily access to "play" with. Many are of the Mindstorms variety and - trains ;)

I have about 10 larger display models; the MK FD, TLG's Silent Mary, Saturn 5, Apollo 11 Eagle, the bust of Darth Vader, 42042 Technic crawler crane, 3 modulars and that's about it. 

you said : Also, the bow and stern sections really benefit from that stronger clutch power - there is absolutely nothing wrong with the moulds, in contrast. I'll never take that beauty apart. Yes, this is not in the sense of true LEGO,

My apologies, your opinion was confusing...

[Yperio_Bricks]

3 minutes ago, Horation said:

[to hear is an irregular verb]

ok

3 minutes ago, Horation said:

Parts which fit too strongly together are considered imperfect, that is the default position on this issue.

If you disagree, the burden of proof is on you. 

If the clutch power is better, surely someone has more than anecdotal evidence (say measurements of the relative strength needed to take them apart), because that's all I'm hearing as of right now. If someone can prove it, I will happily admit being wrong.

ok