Custom 9V tracks

[zephyr1934]

Don't worry; way ahead of you on that. Curves have been done for a while now, and I have a sandbox layout to make sure everything fits like it should (here's your crossover, zephyr):

But you are absolutely correct, with the 1x8 crossties, we do have to have them in between studs in order for this to work, unless you'd rather have a 2x8 crosstie at every connection, which, frankly, looks terrible. I'd start investing heavily in the 1x2 plates with 1 stud.

Wow! Though with the cross-ties offset by half a stud from normal lego track, that will make your transition rails more complicated if someone wants to mix with lego track pinned to baseplates. You'll probably need 15.5 and 16.5 match pairs of transition rails. And while I REALLY like the look of the brown ties, it would be nice (in the future) to also have dark gray ties as an option to match legacy 9v track.

[coaster]

Wow! Though with the cross-ties offset by half a stud from normal lego track, that will make your transition rails more complicated if someone wants to mix with lego track pinned to baseplates. You'll probably need 15.5 and 16.5 match pairs of transition rails. And while I REALLY like the look of the brown ties, it would be nice (in the future) to also have dark gray ties as an option to match legacy 9v track.

That won't be necessary; the transition tracks would still be 16 long. The tracks themselves are normal to the grid, only the crossties are offset 1/2 stud. And this is necessary to facilitate even tie spacing while still keeping the track segments symetrical, i.e., we'd have to have different curve pieces for going left or right otherwise. One thing I could consider is designing the bottom of the crossties to naturally assembly between studs. That'd take some work to change, but could also look kinda weird. We could always go back to the 2x8 crossties too, I just think the 1x8s overall look more realistic.

As for the color, that's easy enough to have options. I figured to make them in dark grey, dark blue-grey, dark brown, and black, regardless of what design we settle on.

[garethjellis]

COaster,

I am really enjoying the progress you are making with this, especially as I am a 9 volter and had to create my own switches with Code 250 track.

One thing that may be neat, we spend a lot of time creating ties using tile, I am wondering if the ties your making would be better served with out stud on them. Just a thought.

Also the colour options are exciting, especially with most modern ties being a grey concrete.

anyway keep up the good work

Gareth

[codefox421]

But you are absolutely correct, with the 1x8 crossties, we do have to have them in between studs in order for this to work, unless you'd rather have a 2x8 crosstie at every connection, which, frankly, looks terrible. I'd start investing heavily in the 1x2 plates with 1 stud.

Why not design the offset directly into the ties? I would image that anyone with a sizeable, non-permanent layout (read: LUGs) would hate to have to place a million jumper plates just to set up track.

[coaster]

Why not design the offset directly into the ties? I would image that anyone with a sizeable, non-permanent layout (read: LUGs) would hate to have to place a million jumper plates just to set up track.

I started looking at that last night a bit. It's a little awkward, but not terrible. This is more a sketch than an actual track, but it would look roughly like this:

Bottom of each crosstie looks like a 2x8 plate with 2mm sawed off of each side. The studs would have to be recessed from the top instead of bottom, or simply not present. I think there's a lot of value to keeping the studs though, even if it means some LUGs need to tile each one.

[JCForsythe]

I like the 1x8 look as well. Below is another idea.

What about this idea to join sections of rail?

Edited September 28, 2015 by JCForsythe

[Ron Dayes]

great idea and interesting links to other peoples ideas aswell;)

@scott

If you can manage the printing + adding the metal onto it (fully functional with the original), and all at a reasonable price + you earn with it, id go for a kickstarter.

I mean, its mainly AFOLs buying after all, so there is money to be made.

I would definately buy large radius tracks, so i can finally get 8-9 wide trains working properly. I wouldnt care how much space i need^^

This issue been bothering me (and obviously others) for a long time now, so the market is there!

I stay alert for your progress and possible buying options in the future ;)

Until then, good luck!

[coaster]

I like the 1x8 look as well. Below is another idea.

What about this idea to join sections of rail?

At 16 studs long, the gap between has to be 1 stud long, otherwise the spacing overall doesn't work out. Unless you're showing something else that I'm missing.

[JCForsythe]

In the middle of each section there is a 2x8. One problem that plagues other scales is maintaining the electrical connection. One design feature of the Lego 9v track was that connection is far more secure. this idea using the old 4.5v grey plastic track holds the rails pretty securely....this coupled with a rail joiner would make the connection secure.

[Lazarus]

I really love the way this is going, but not sure how many years this would be away or if it ever gets past your own track.

Also with ME Rails already being on the market there would be a bit of a fight, but overall i think you are on the right track making it more like model rail track.

But one thing what could be a good easy start is just the Rail Ties, Like the above pic in yellow but just with the clips on to hold code 250 rail.

I would by a few thousand off you so i could make my own as this would save me so much time scratch building as i am doing the same a garethjellis

If i could just slide the rail though the ties and crate my own streights and bend for the layout i am doing.

[CrispyBassist]

Bottom of each crosstie looks like a 2x8 plate with 2mm sawed off of each side. The studs would have to be recessed from the top instead of bottom, or simply not present. I think there's a lot of value to keeping the studs though, even if it means some LUGs need to tile each one.

One problem I see with this right away is that those individuals or groups that want to ballast their track will need to invest heavily in jumper plates to hold the ballast pieces between the crossties. Also, the half-stud offset in general would cause problems for ballasted track that connects to Lego track, as you'd need a half-plate where they connect. My thought would be to keep the ties aligned to the grid to best mesh with other types of track (Lego, ME Models). Except in high speed installations tie spacing seems to be an approximate number, so a two-stud gap in some places may not be too terrible. Or, if the ties were able to slide along the rail the gaps could be eliminated based on exactly how each user wants them.

[Aaron]

I think I have a solution for this. Keep the ties single-spaced, as your original plan was, without offsetting them. In order for people to save on jumper plates, you could simply slot the bottoms of the ties, similar to the newer jumper plate design.

This would allow people to "jump" the sections of track that are offset from the curves, using just using normal plates underneath. It retains the aesthetics of the original design, eliminates any need to do anything wacky with the ties, saves on jumper plates, and allows people to ballast as they normally would.

[coaster]

Hmm, interesting idea Aaron, but it still doesn't resolve the issue of having different left and right curves, and as such, different left switches and different right switches.

It kills me to say it, but as much as I like the look of the 1x8 ties, there doesn't seem to be an elegant way to implement it to the stud grid. I think I need to scrap that idea and go back to the 2x8 sleepers. It just simplifies everything.

[splatman]

Really not understanding how having 1x8 ties/sleepers would throw off the track's alignment to the stud grid.

Does it have to do with the transitions between the track sections? As long as the rails connect "in grid", the sleepers can be "in grid" also. The rails would start flush with the first sleeper, and overhang the last sleeper by 1 stud. The first sleeper may need 2 protrusions that would connect with the last track section, maybe also including metal tabs to provide electrical continuity.

[CrispyBassist]

Really not understanding how having 1x8 ties/sleepers would throw off the track's alignment to the stud grid.

I think the issue comes in when adding curves and switches. In order to use 1x8 ties and keep spacing consistent there would need to be specific left and right curves and switches, otherwise there would be a 2x8 gap when aligned one of the two ways.

It kills me to say it, but as much as I like the look of the 1x8 ties, there doesn't seem to be an elegant way to implement it to the stud grid. I think I need to scrap that idea and go back to the 2x8 sleepers. It just simplifies everything.

That's not the end of the world to me. We'll still figure out how to ballast them and tile them like all the rest of the track!

[splatman]

I think the issue comes in when adding curves and switches. In order to use 1x8 ties and keep spacing consistent there would need to be specific left and right curves and switches, otherwise there would be a 2x8 gap when aligned one of the two ways.

Just realized what you are talking about. Turning a straight section (designed the way I was thinking) 180 degrees, would result in a 2-stud gap at one end, and 2 sleepers side-by-side at the other.

So the solution, is to have every section symmetrical. The rails can overhang each end by 1/2-stud, but then comes the issues that must be solved with jumper plates. Or just shift the entire layout 1/2-stud in 2 directions.

Edit: Shifting the layout won't quite solve the problem, or would it? Having the rails offset by 1/2-stud, while having the sleepers "in click" with the baseplates, is simple enough with the straights, the curves, OTOH, are throwing a real curve-ball. Instead of R40 (LEGO track curve radius), for example, R39 or R41 might be the solution, albeit an odd one. Or would those be R39.5 and R40.5? Now comes the need for oddball length straights (3L, 5L, 7L, etc.). No wonder why TLG makes their tracks with 2x8 sleepers. Combined with LEGO and/or ME track (even with adapters), and things will get really screwy.

Conclusion: 2x8 sleepers make total sense from a design and cost savings standpoint.

Edited October 2, 2015 by splatman

[Lego Dino 500]

I just had an idea that I think would be quite ingenious for the track designs. What if you made power routing switches, like with Kato Unitrack? That'd allow you to use an arbitrary blocking system similar to that of scale model railroads, and it'd still comply to the same standard rules of 9V rail geometry. Then you could have sidings, switching yards, and industry tracks off of a single power supply. The only thing is, you'd have to have some sort of option to choose between power routing and non power routing, so you could crossover tracks and use multiple power supplies and stuff.

[zephyr1934]

Here's another thought about the cross ties... do away with them altogether. Assuming the marginal cost for the extra plastic is small, mount the rails on the equivalent of a 8xN plate in dark blay. For straights put studs everywhere, so those who like 2 wide ties can add them with tiles or plates, those who like 1 wide can do similar. For curves and switches, strategically place the studs so that no one has to worry about finding 5 million wedge plates. For each tie location perhaps use 2 hollow studs with a gap of one stud in between. So you can put a 2x2 tile with the center tube on each of the studs, or you can put a 1x4 tile with two of the posts in the hollow part of the studs. That would greatly reduce the part count for ballasting.

[Chumley]

Just read all the thread. I'm interested in two complete circles to keep the metal rails.

As far as radius. I'd be happy with the same as curve-straight corners make. 72r I think.

[jkj1909]

Great work "Coaster" with this lego custom switch, I will definite join if you start a kickstarter project with this.

[coaster]

Thanks for the support everyone! Just a quick update, I am working on changing everything over to the 2x8 sleepers, but it requires a few changes to the electrical connections. My goal is to get that designed such that I can use the same ABS base piece for adapting to LEGO 9V tracks. I've had a few small delays as I updated my computer. Naturally, once I did, nothing worked. But I'm back up and running now, so hopefully can have something new to show in the next couple weeks.

[coaster]

Happy December everyone! After a few prototypes and redesigns, I believe I have my final solution for the overall track design as to how it will assemble as a piece-part and within the track system.

Here's a pic!

I had to do away with the rail clips, as I found they interfere with the power connector. I also had to widen the rails from the classic "I" shape to more of an inverted "T" to give room for the mounting screws.

Note that the rails themselves will be square cut, with exception being for the adapter tracks for standard Lego 9V tracks. The electrical connection will be maintained through the small metal plate. One of the advantage of doing it this way is you will be able to remove this plate to create isolated track segments, e.g., with proper controls, a balloon turn will be possible with 9V tracks. Most importantly though, it simplifies tooling, a necessity for the short runs we'll be dealing with.

For the adapter tracks, the plate will be removed and the adapter-side rails will be cut to match the Lego "handshake". The spring of the standard Lego rails will be sufficient to maintain proper contact. The other side will remain square cut.

I have prototype R40, R104, and R200 curves in process. Switches are being modeled still, but I should have those to show soon (trying to improve that mechanism as well). Once I do, I will layout a dimensional cut sheet of the tracks with their lengths, angles, etc, for final comments before I initiate the kickstarter.

Again, I apologize for the delays. I spend every spare moment I get on this, but I just don't get that many of those.

[garethjellis]

This is great progress,

Have you though about using Code 250 rail?

Here is an example

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/255-23003

also you could use standard stainless steel rail joiners, this will ensure the rails are aligned when they are joined.

http://www.microengineering.com/products_ta.htm

http://web4.hobbylinc.com/gr/pco/pco910.jpg

[coaster]

I have considered it, but given the amount that I'd need to build these, the cost would be insane for me to just buy stock material. For example, Walthers in that link you provided offers 8x 6' sections for $132. The equivalent amount from the mill will cost me about $40 whether I use the same Code 250 profile or one specially for the Lego profile, at which point, I may as well make exactly what I need. Of course, I need to buy about 1500 lbs of the stuff, but for production purposes, that actually isn't that much.

That said, if I do run into alignment problems with the next prototype curves, using and modifying stock rail joiners may be a necessity. I'm really hoping to avoid that though.

[SteveB]

Indeed, I ordered a roll of that tape (3M 1183) but I figured I'd wait to see how well it worked for me before going into details, just in case it was a different product that worked so well for the person at Bricks by the Bay. Google around and you should be able to find it elsewhere in smaller quantities. I decided to try the 1/4 inch and got a single roll (18 yards) for about $21 with shipping from http://www.mouser.com/

How did the experiment work out?

- SteveB