Bricktrix

Thanks guys :) Yup, as a kid I had 00 and n and loved them both for different reasons. My dad got me a 00 smoking 0-6-0 Jinty for my 3rd birthday...ha so I sort of know who he really got it for as it was well beyond my "saftey limits" at 3 years old! God bless him. R.I.P dad. I didnt know O-gauge even existed, but I loved the LEGO scale of trains back in my pre-teens and teens. Now-a-days, the O-gauge models I'm familiar with all appear to run to around 1k once you've added wheels, motors, speakers, lights, chips, etc, etc and to be honest most of my LEGO versions wouldnt come in much cheaper if having to purchase every part via Bricklink along with adding all the DCC stuff...maybe a few hundred quid cheaper on some. Luckily I usually dont have to do that as I have many parts in my collection, but its certainly something I always consider if I dont have certain things. Hi Udo, thanks although I'm not exactly sure what it was you just said to me?! If I'm reading along the correct lines of thinking, when I say 7 wide I talk about the running board width, not including extruding door handles / grabs, piston boxes or connecting wheel rods / valve gear, as indeed all those things can take the complete width of the model out to 9 studs or so in footprint. BUT, if I build a cab to 8 wide (which I dont) then I would class the model as 8 wide, if that makes things clearer? So when I say 7 wide vs o-guage, its the actual body width I'm talking about as those are the things that I'm comparing dimensions against, to our U.K. rail running standards and indeed this may change from country to country where locos such as in the U.S. are wider than ours. i.e. Tony (Sava) builds to 8 wide (and I thinjk sometimes he has gone out to 10) as its more suited to the U.S. loading gauge.

Thank you very much guys :) Thank you mate but thats also shame Tony, I thought you may be one contributing to this thread as I'm sure I've seen pics of 1 or 2 of your locos next to their approprate scale model counterparts a some years ago.....way before I ever started doing these comparison pics? Benn, no I'm using the standard LEGO wheelsets. Dont be fooled by the photos, the flanges are on the rails this side of the picture, but on the wrong side of the rail at the rear so they dont fit or run on 0-gauge track. I couldnt agree more about some poor O-guage models too. Petes are always pretty much spot on, so I'm lucky enough to have such a good source. I wouldnt be taking these pictures along side them if they werent right. Thank you and thats the beauty of this hobby, take whatever direction you want. I posted these as I thought they may just prove useful to someone. I also do this for stress relief (although sometimes you wouldnt think it!) even after I do it all day for a job, it still de-stresses me in my down-time as I'm not against deadlines or doing it for anyone elses standards ;)

Thanks Dug, and yeah I know. Even my most "extreme" personal builds always have many compromises in them, its the nature of the beast and I dont mind that (well okay, sometimes I do, but if I couldnt accept it then I'd be building scratch built models again rather than using LEGO) but that was pretty much the point of this post. Not many people "do" go to these lengths, but will it be usefull to the ones who do, and in turn, would that then start to become almost a norm for a more "average" builder. I use that term very losely, as the standards I have seen within LEGO train builders over the years, what was raising the bar 7 years ago, is now almost parr for the course now-a-days. It certainly keeps me on my toes, which I think is always healthy from a design perspective. Plus you just about answered your own comment, you wouldnt mind seeing how yours compares.....I think its almost a natural instinct from builders who care, and hopefully of interest to those who do or who are slightly intruiged.....thats exactly how I started thinking, then saw a comparison and made my choices, do I change it or dont I. (But admittedly that was after changing the initial model many times before making the comparison) This isnt meant to sound like elitism or a niche, but more to offer something of potential interest.

I thought I'd put this out here for non Flickr users (and to be honest I dont blame anyone for not using it given its recent changes!) as its a subject that I find very interesting when it comes to building at 7 wide in LEGO, and hopefully others here will also find it of some interest or use to future builds? Many people know within the LEGO community that I strive for an almost "model realistic" look to my LEGO trains, its purely a personal prefference and offers an alternative to the table of building within the medium. One thing I noticed when I switched over to 7 wide 6 or 7 years ago is the first time I put them up against an O-Guage model, is just how close to O-guage model scale they were and with a few tweaks here and there, they could actually be built in some cases to be almost spot on scale wise. I've usually just put the pics of a particular LEGO model into its set / album on flickr, but I've now made a new album / set specifically for my findings every time I take comparison shots. I dont ever work to overlaid blue prints, etc so all my builds are pure guess work to the correct proportions from photos that I aquire of the real things.....and this is where I find most of the interest lays. When I initially design a model, sometimes it will be done using selective compression because I know trying to replicate a 60ft loco, is going to lead to problems through curves, points, etc. Some get to a very close compromise in length and some can be spot on, but I will always try to keep everything in proportion to each other, so that one is shorter to an other if it is in real life. I'll kick this off with a much older model that started out as a King Class, but when put next to an O-guage model lent itself scale wise to being almost spot on to a Castle Class, so with a few rebuilds, resulted in this: Full set: https://www.flickr.c...57629016823127/ So I took 9 work in progress models over today to take some comparison pics to see how I was "fairing up" in my guess work and the results were interesting. I wont go into the ones that I'm happy with, they will all continue to be finished off and posted at a later date. These are the ones that I will be re-working or at least looking at the options with: Class 35 Hymek diesel: My guess work so I thought was spot on with this, but (despite the angle the pics taken, the right end lines up with both models) its actually 4 studs too short. This is a loco that I can goto full scale length with, but with looking at the LEGO geometry against the models geometry I'm not so sure it will look "right" if taken out to the correct length. i.e. the grill bricks in LEGO being smaller than the models grills, hence if I elongate my model the spaces between them will start to look disproportionate. The 9v LEGO motor wheel spacing also plays a big part in this with what looks right, so only experimenting with elongating it out to the extra 4 studs will show the results. I'm expecting that it will not look right and take it back to what I have here, but there is only one way for me to find out. It may open up some possibilities that I didnt envisage at this stage......but this is all what makes it so interesting to me at least as a designer. 0-6-0 Hunslet saddle tank: This one has only been on the go for the last few days and I wasnt convinced with it, especially the rear tender, but I was surprised that I was 1 stud out with the length of the boiler and to me it makes a massive difference to the overall proportional look of the model, so back to the drawing board with this one, that 1 stud means another complete chassis rebuild, with offset wheel spacing, I'll also look at a rebuild in red or black, blue, etc....it may stay green but I'm not sold on it at this stage. 2-6-2 Large GWR Prairie: Now this one isnt like for like. The LEGO model is a Large Prairie, whilst the O-guage is a standard (unfortunately the guys dont have a Large version) but it still gave me a good enough impression of the LEGO models scale, which is about right. Ironically the cab on a large is a lower profile than the standard (or at least the profile of the curve is less), but the boiler is longer with higher side water tanks and lowered running boards on the rear tender. I've always been tempted between the 2 versions of the Prairie but really only wanted to build one. I have some custom rods ordered with Benn (Zephyr) for this, so it will probably stay and MAYBE a standard will also be built....maybe in BR black as pictured, maybe not? Link to size album which I thoroughly intend to keep updating as and when, and start putting pics into from past builds also for size ref: https://www.flickr.c...57644126223681/ I hope this is of some interest and or use to some here, as its not something I see anywhere within our community and whilst I know that not everyone is out to try and replicate the scale as best possible, some are and this type of stuff can be valuable to them. I also wonder if this maybe a thread that others could contribute to with like for like comparison pics? Just a thought for exploring potential :) Carl

This is very nice. Some great lines, curves and shaping going on, plus the proportions look good too.

I'd go for: 1. 88 stud radius 2. B) 9V The size of tables in the U.K. are 1.75m x 75cm and if you need any curves testing

I got all excited about this until I saw it was plastic rails I've had a few discussions over the last few years (with a mate of mine) and he has offered a VERY real possibility to put into production through one of his businesses ( http://www.justliketherealthing.co.uk/ ) plastic sleepers with combined ties to fit LEGO dimensions and also whatever metal gauge rails we / I wanted to go with. He even gave us some rails to experiment with, BUT I've never pursued it due to the many legal complications I can foresee with a potential production run with stuff like this. Ben, if this of interest to you, PM me with your email, etc and we can talk further.....I think legally its a non starter, but ya never know. (I still need to get some of your custom rods off you also, when I finally get around to revisiting some of my models!)

Like this then (done back in 2009 but 7 wide)

Much, much, better to your initial design (and I'm not saying that because they replicate my work). Its good to see that you've taken the main body height from 4 bricks upto 5 (with a few plates here and there) and maybe you should look at your Scotsman again in that respect (from memory its cab is only 4 bricks high?) This is the sort of huge jump I like to see from someone in this hobby. You have gone from a fairly medicore design and shot right upto something that is now very convincing. Whilst I admire your strive for proportions, just try to remember that this IS LEGO, and if you want to run any of this stuff, extensive testing is required. From my experience, whilst the distance between wheelsets on your bogies isnt a problem, it starts to become one once 2 pairs are on the same chassis. You would be struggling to pull these through standard LEGO curves if only using 4 or 5 carriages, as the weight vs length will become an issue, and the wheelset distances on each bogie vs bogie distances per carriage will create huge drag / friction which will result in motor wheelspin and complete rake slow-down / possible motor burn out. The type of dimensions you are designing at the moment lend themselves ONLY to huge layouts that utilise shallower curve techniques and your price point for ordering and building per unit will be very high. You now have a very nice starting point with these, so I look forwards to seeing if you go further in detailing with them, and / or reducing scale to an affordable price, workable running, etc, etc.

Yup, your floodlights probably need to be twice as tall with the lights angled down a lot further than the ones you have pictured. (Think football pitch lighting, thats basically how they opperate over an entire square mile or so yard here). Looking at your pics, I'd be really concerned about the deflection angle on the points inside the tunnel....basically the amount of front over hang you may get from one loco coming through the points, looks like it may collide with the interior tunnel wall

Thank you :) For the last couple of years I've had a hard time convincing people these are LEGO. The last few shows I've done I had to take the roofs off to some people to show them the internal studs to make them believe me...and this was when people knew they were at a LEGO show! The non LEGO shows that I've done with them, I gave up trying to convince them and let them believe they were O-gauge models, was just far easier! This is what I wanted to acheive, but its become a bit of a pain now. Anyway, it will go forwards still :) An update on the class 27, now finished:

I'm VERY interested in all this. I've just put up a vid I took last year, which is a proof of concept. Using BBB med size ALL plastic wheels, and a track pickup via piano wire through 3mm LEGO tube (to look like a brake or sanding pipe) and an old 9v motor....really intended to do a DCC 08 shunter. As you can see from the vid, it works, but its only using 1 pick up on each side of the track, so points, cross-overs, etc would be a problem. However, I planned on making this using 2 pickups each side to compensate for this, BUT, I would rather go for a metal tyre over the wheel if possible. I've never gone any further with this yet as other projects took over. Are either of you guys able to get over to the O2 in London, U.K. this may?

What would YOU rather have? I'm with Lazarus on this, I hate batteries, they are always dead JUST when I want to use them, and even when I'm using them I'm always worried about them running out, ...yeah you can re-charge them but that takes time, or have replacements to swap over whilst others recharge. Unwanted faff to me. Personal experience with PF has been terrible, reception to control "can" be awful (yet sods law says its always perfect when testing at home!) and I seriously dont know how the guys who run with it (even at the shows I do) can do so, the fine control gets lost in big open areas with me at least, even if I take the reciever out and blatantly "plonk" it on top of the loco, it still just runs away out of control, until it comes back around to maybe one point where I can gain control again. But there are big players in the States, like Sava, Shupp, Cale, Jayhurst, etc who all appear to have no probs with it. 9v is gonna cost you nowadays, big bucks for a big layout, but if your happy with that then it opens up more posibilities, as your still able to run PF on it, plus 9v motors and if you want to go down a custom DCC route, its there for you also and the world is pretty much your oyster with that.;)

:) Thanks again everyone for the comments. The DCC side of these were always intended just to "top them off" for extra features at public shows, but they can easily just stay as normal LEGO 9v opperation if I wanted to by swaping the motors out. I've done many, many shows, but only 1 so far using the DCC and it was brilliant to see the publics reaction when they realised it was DCC controlled with sounds, so the next level with smoke will hopefully be even better! As far as I'm concerned, stepping things up like this inspires some who wouldnt even consider LEGO as a medium for model trains to have a go themselves at just a standard model. Thats certainly the feedback I've had over the years and if its getting more people into LEGO, then thats all good with me and the bars will continue to raise standards that at the moment are beyond our comprehension :) Also just found out that we are doing AFOLcon / The LEGO show at the O2 arena, London, in May this year, so gives me 4 months to get these things finished off. They will all be there, along with my full display and me! :)

Thank you all for your kind comments :) Alain, its a Peter Clarke smoke unit: http://www.peterclarkkits.com/smoke-units--lighting-kits.html however I think it may be the same as this one (although this one is modded)

I thought some may like these. All 3 models are still works in progress, just really with a few finer details and stickers to be completed. The one thats been the biggest pain due to the smoke unit: Class 37, using a SWD Loksound V4 chip and fan assisted smoke unit: Work in progress set: Class 55 Deltic: Work in progress set: Class 27: Work in progress set: And finally, one of all 3 :) http://www.flickr.co...ix/12252554053/

As I said on Flickr, I think this is lovely. As for your above problem, maybe not ;) Looking at the length of the wheelbase, I think you could get away with keeping the front wheel flanged (thus elminating swivel probs, etc), and then change the 1st set of large drivers to flangless, leaving the rear ones flanged. This would also eliminate stupid overhang on the front, but you would have to test the length first through curves and points....it may just be bordering on being too long on a first quick glance, but it may just be okay. Try it and see, it could save you a lot of issues

So why wont they let you run your PF trains along their 9v track? I dont understand the mentality here? I totally understand if existing members already have a display of which they have previously invested in 9v track and motors with, that they want to display. But, presuming that it is easy for you to change your 16ft display track out to borrowed 9v track to allow them to run through your section, thus adding to the whole display, then whats the problem for them to allow your PF trains to run through their sections? It sounds to me like someone is being un-reasonable and has an attitude of "its my ball and I'll take it home unless you play how I want" My advice would be dont even consider investing in 9v just to keep these guys happy. I'm only going from the info you provided and obviously there could be a different side to the story, but from what I've read, if this is only the 2nd show and there is only 3 of them that insist on this, that clubs, Lugs, etc membership and ethos can change like the wind....next year they may be outnumbered by PF guys. Stick to your guns and what you want to do. Go next year and turn your section into a complete loop and run it yourself, you may find other new members joining who then want to add to yours and the tables could completely turn. Above all, have the most fun "you" can out of it and try to ignore the stupid politics that can sometimes ruin it for people...rise above it all :)

Thank you. That pic looks more like a 108. This is the model its supposed to be :

Thank you all for the comments Hrw-Amen, ooh yeah it does, its taken a few weeks to sync the sound speeds to the motor speeds, but yeah it now sounds awesome in motiion. Engine revs,changes gear, track click-clack and flange squeel if wanted, also brake squeel when slowing down. I'll try and get some videos of it running at the STEAM show in the next few weeks.....which brings me to my next point; LegoSjaak, yep couldnt agree more, need to treat myself to a new camera / vid thingy this christmas I think Lazarus, Thanks for the praise, I like what you have done with your 37 (in the new colours also) although I'm not keen on the windscreen. Some guys have used this part to very good effect http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=6583 it may be an option to consider at 6 wide. Funnily enough, I've been looking at my old class 37 and 40 in the last week as to how to make them 7 wide and build DCC into them, so expect to see this happen over the next12 months Carl

John, thanks, yeah I now see what your doing...I somehow missed the bit about the brush pick ups on the 12v motors. Interesting to hear of this though, as I've been experimenting with a similar concept over the last few months but just briefly, and I've not seen anyone else do anything like it yet. I'm using wire through 3mm LEGO flex tube (supposed to look like brake pipes) to achieve the same effect of a pick up, as I really want to get a DCC 08 shunter working. However, the shunters I make use the BBB medium wheels which are all plastic, so needed a way to get power from the track upto a PF motor and soundchip. I've spoken to Ben about the possibilities of casting his wheels in metal which was one positive route that I may continue down if this "brush pick-up" system turns out to be a no go...although I have had some good quick initial test results using it that I'm looking at polishing after the upcoming show I have looming. I have a few vids of it working just using 2 pick ups (1 each side) but need to get 4 for smooth point negotiation. I'm holding off posting these vids until I make further "in-roads" into the development. I'd certainly be interested in hearing of your experimentation and findings with this type of system. Regarding my comments on using "unregulated DCC" by that, what I meant was having the cv values set to protect the motors. I'm by no means the expert when it comes to electronics, but I've taken in the basics from my 2 friends of whats good and whats not. So its my understanding that using PWM, its always pushing 12-14v through the track, and that voltage is going through the chip and unless regulated straight to your motor, regardless of the speed step....Hence the motors having full pulling power on speed step 1 and the speed step is regulated by the amps and chip settings. (In laymans terms, a 9v controller requires to be set to full power to be able to operate a motor under full load as its then getting 9v, if its set to speed step 1, its only getting 1v....DCC speed step 1 the motor is still getting full volts unless regulated down to a safe capacity) I know the 12v controllers push out around 13.1v and the 12v motors should be able to cope with most DCC inputs, but the 9v motors wont, hence the need for regulation via the cv settings. From my initial reading of your post, the problems you were describing about the motors sometimes being erratic, pausing, speed bursting, etc is totally what I have experienced until I got all the cv's right, so I naturally presumed that is what you were also experiencing. If, as you say, your motors perfom perfectly under normal DCC control, then this is obviously not the issue I thought. As a point of interest, when you have been testing all this, are you just testing the motors alone, or under an engine and / or pulling stock / load? I ask as sometimes when I think a motor is working well alone, as soon as its put under the wieght of an engine it "can" start to perfom erraticaly, and then if that gets sorted, the same "can" happen again when pulling stock / load. You would think once you get the settings right for one motor, then do the same to others and all will be well, but from my experience its been anything but that. I'm seriously interested in what your doing and hearing of your conclusions, problems, etc as your the only other person in the U.K that I know of doing this. I'd be happy to talk further via email or even by phone if you'd wish to. Carl

JopieK, I can only suggest that you have not set the cv values well enough if your getting poor performance from the 9v motors. It can take weeks if not months of trial and error to adjust them all, but it is possible to get them to perform 100% better than using standard 9v DC control. John Hill, I'm totally confused as to what your doing? You mention 12v and 9v motors, running off 9v track? From what I can work out, your trying to write your own software for a controller before you know the converted motors are operating perfectly on a DCC system / controller? If I am correct then your running before crawling and I would say now to stop with your train of thought. You will fry your 9v motors if your putting unregulated 12vDCC directly through them. PWM means that the max power is getting straight to the motor, even using speed setting 1, it needs to be regulated with the amps ( or the other way around, I always get them mixed up but my friends do not!) You certainly need to know that your motors are working perfectly via a DCC controller before attempting to write your own code for a controller! DCC conversion into the LEGO 9v track system is possible and if done correctly works extremely well, however it takes a LOT of time, trial and error to get right. It can be done completely safely, there are cv settings for voltage input, amps input, which protect the LEGO motor. I use an NCE Powercab controller with booster, which is putting 14v through the track, but the cv settings have been set for the chip so the motor doesnt draw anymore than 9v. The chip draws more, but we then limit the settings for sounds, lights, etc to all draw safe amps / volts for them. The motor control parameters can take weeks of setting up. The LEGO motors need to be set to a non flywheel setting, on a Loksound V4 its usually the opposite end of the factory setting. The speed curves need to be fine tuned, parameter K in cv 54 try reducing + cv52 for fine tuning. cv55 try increasing, along with cv51 for fine tuning. The back emf cv53 needs adjusting also. All these are best experimented with by adjust a value of 5 each time and test the results. The "cat out of hell" setting also has some bearing (or appears to have done with mine). You need to set the index register correctly (cant remember if its 0 or 1, read the manuals) then set cv 54 to 0 and press f1. This zooms the motor off at full speed for a few seconds and automatically adjusts all the settings, however, these settings are nearly always the opposite of what they need to be! Yup, makes no sense, but after having done that with mine, then going back and fine tuning all the speed curve and load settings, I now have 9v motors opperated through 12v DCC that can pull a full weight train without surge or stutter at speed step 1 all the way through to speed step 28. The motors will "whine" a little on speed steps 1-3 as so much load is on them...the whine means its not doing the motor much good, but again you can control how long they are on those speed steps for. I have a couple of topics using DCC conversions: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=86867 http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=84421

As I was never really happy with the last generic 60's style DMU that I built, and our adventure into DCC operation is proving do-able although extensive in conversion, I have been heavily inspired by the sounds of a model on Pete Watermans o-gauge layout of a class 116 DMU, so thought I'd give it a shot to build in LEGO and convert over to DCC with the sounds. (I would in no way have been able to get the DCC side of it done without the expert help of 2 friends of mine, Richard and Mike. Their help and effort into making this work with soldering, choosing resistor values, relays needed, etc, has been fantastic and very much appreciated)......I just built the thing to be able to take apart in easy sections to get to the wiring, speakers, lights, etc.! So this is the final result: The above cab ends pictured show the last 2 combinations that I'm trying to decide on using. I've gone through maybe 20 different variations of cheese slopes / no cheese, to try and achieve the right (or near enough!) look, this is the version I'm going to go with now, but still undecided if to use the stickers or not. The one furthest from shot uses no stickers for the "whiskers", the one nearest in shot uses stickers over the cheese slopes to enhance the shape of the "whiskers". Me being me, I'm drawn to the sticker version and will probably end up going with this? The 1x1 dark grey plate visible on the side of the drivers cab door is the only part in this build that is not obtainable in dark green (as its a modified plate with clip / o ring used to hold the 1x4 tile in place).......so if I go with sticker usage, then I'm tempted to also cover this plate with a dark green sticker! Below is a video of the available sound functions whilst stationary.....obviously when in motion the motors also rev up, along with track "click-clack" flange squeel and brake squeel. I will get some videos of it running on my display at STEAM in the next few weeks. The next video shows how we have made the interior cab light come on in direction of travel, and off in reverse (on both ends) whilst changing over the direction lights from white to red.....as there are no bi-polar led's in white and red (only green and red) this has been a hurdle to overcome, especially as I'm only connecting 2 wires through the run of carriages and the soundchips require 3 wires to activate the changeover easily...hence never have been able to have done this without my 2 friends :) For the techies, its using a South West Digital class 108 recorded onto a Loksound V4 soundchip......and then weeks upon weeks of changing cv settings to get it to run smoothly and sync the sounds up with speed, etc....sometimes I just dunno why I do this! Carl

Yes the output on the side is a constant power source, so you can hook up accessory switches to them as it was designed to do. In fact I power all the points and lights on my display using the 12v switches designed to go with the controller.

Very nice, hasnt someone else done a full version of this station before? If your doing a channel tunnel theme, surely you need to get in touch with Warren Elsmore who has built St. Pancras? http://www.flickr.co...157622397455071 (you may spy a Eurostar in the last link)